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Shai Gar
And my argument is destroyed.
Sodmony, Conservatism, and Religion
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Shai Gar
The Mishnah or Mishna (Hebrew: משנה, "repetition", from the verb shanah שנה, or "to study and review", also "secondary"[1](derived from the adj. שני)) is the first major written redaction of the Jewish oral traditions called the "Oral Torah" and the first major work of Rabbinic Judaism.[2] It was redacted c. 220 CE by Judah haNasi when, according to the Talmud, the persecution of the Jews and the passage of time raised the possibility that the details of the oral traditions dating from Pharisaic times (536 BCE – 70 CE) would be forgotten.
My argument is not destroyed. I knew I wasn't talking from my arse.
My argument is not destroyed. I knew I wasn't talking from my arse.
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S
Shai Gar
Damnit. You're going to make me study theology again just so I can win aren't you.
Well stiff shit, I'm not going to. I'll lose this argument gracefully.
HAHA! I WIN FUCK YOU!
Well stiff shit, I'm not going to. I'll lose this argument gracefully.
HAHA! I WIN FUCK YOU!
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"What are we going to do, coach?"
"What are we going to do? We're going to lose. But... we're going to lose with dignity."
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magister343
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No, the Old Testament comes from the Tanakh, that is, the Torah (Teaching, or the 5 Books of Moses), Nevi'im (Prophets), and Kethuvim (Writings).
The Talmud consists of the Mishnah, written around 200AD based on traditions which Orthodox Jews claim date back to Moses (although there are some rather good arguments against this), and the Gemara, discussions about the Mishnah and Tanakh written down 3 centuries latter.
The Talmud says does not really matter here, but it does happen to agree with what I view as a proper interpretation of the relevant texts.
I don't really feel like checking all of these right now, but I found this list of biblical references to the sins of Sodom:
Jude does connect Sodom with whoredom and seeking after the flesh, but does not say anything about the nature of their sexual perversion. It could very have been mostly promiscuous but vanilla heterosexual intercourse. Furthermore, such sexual sins are frequently used metaphors for idolatry and placing worldly concerns over spiritual matters. In the old testament Israel is depicted as a cheating wife who is worse than a whore because she pays those who abuse her instead of taking payment. Idols in general are referred to as "male images," or dildos.
Furthermore, Jesus himself mentions Sodom in the gospels 4 times. Three of these were in the context of discussing hospitality, while the other was saying that those who continue to sin despite access to scriptures clearly teaching them better will suffer a fate worse than the people of Sodom did.
The Talmud consists of the Mishnah, written around 200AD based on traditions which Orthodox Jews claim date back to Moses (although there are some rather good arguments against this), and the Gemara, discussions about the Mishnah and Tanakh written down 3 centuries latter.
The Talmud says does not really matter here, but it does happen to agree with what I view as a proper interpretation of the relevant texts.
I don't really feel like checking all of these right now, but I found this list of biblical references to the sins of Sodom:
- Idolatry Deuteronomy 29:17-26; 32:32-38
- Murder, greed, theft, rebellion Isaiah 1:9-23
- Mistreating the poor, arrogance Isaiah 3:8-19
- Adultery, deceit by priests and prophets, pride of the heart, idolatry Jeremiah 23:10-14; 49:16-18; 50:2-40
- Cruelty, failure to care for the young and poor Lamentations 4:3-6
- Pride, greed, laziness, mistreatment of the poor and needy, haughty, abominations Ezekiel 16:49-50
- Oppression and mistreating the poor Amos 4:1-11
- Pride Zephaniah 2:8
- Living after ungodliness 2 Peter 2:6
- Fornication, going after strange flesh Jude 1
Jude does connect Sodom with whoredom and seeking after the flesh, but does not say anything about the nature of their sexual perversion. It could very have been mostly promiscuous but vanilla heterosexual intercourse. Furthermore, such sexual sins are frequently used metaphors for idolatry and placing worldly concerns over spiritual matters. In the old testament Israel is depicted as a cheating wife who is worse than a whore because she pays those who abuse her instead of taking payment. Idols in general are referred to as "male images," or dildos.
Furthermore, Jesus himself mentions Sodom in the gospels 4 times. Three of these were in the context of discussing hospitality, while the other was saying that those who continue to sin despite access to scriptures clearly teaching them better will suffer a fate worse than the people of Sodom did.
S
Shai Gar
Awesome.
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They were said to have sought "strange flesh." I don't know what that means either, but it's probably not referring to heterosexual relations. (It might refer to homosexuality, or it might refer to the fact that Lot's guests were angels, or something else.)
However we weigh the references, Jude did heavily influence predominant Christian thought, and the definition of sodomy that we have today clearly reflects that verse more than the others you mention. And as I said in an earlier post, this Biblical interpretation doesn't even matter in modern legal terminology. Sodomy laws prohibit "crimes against nature," "sexual gratification by genital contact with the mouth or anus," and the like.
S
Shai Gar
I've a solution. Put it to a nationwide political vote; "Who votes to abolish the Sodomy Laws?"
If any of the politicians votes to keep it, and is then found to break that law, they are immediately sentenced to execution without parole. Then, hire private investigators to follow them all.
If any of the politicians votes to keep it, and is then found to break that law, they are immediately sentenced to execution without parole. Then, hire private investigators to follow them all.
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If you don't actually observe them in the act, however, you might have to settle for "conspiracy to sodomize."
"Your honor, I assure you my client was not actually going to allow oral sex to proceed. It was just foreplay. You know how it is when you just want to get worked up before remembering that you must limit your sexual activities to the holy union that creates the miracle of pregnancy in the most direct fashion. We maintain that that is what my client had in mind, and nothing more."
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There haven't been any enforced sodomy laws in the US since Lawrence vs. Texas. However, the Texas GOP recently decided they are going to try to make it illegal again in Texas and also make issuing a marriage license to a gay couple a felony. I'm not even kidding.
magister343
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It says "strange flesh" in some translations, not all.
KJV: 7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
NIV: 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
ASV: 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.
ESV:7just as(A) Sodom and Gomorrah and(B) the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and(C) pursued unnatural desire,[a] serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Douay-Rheims (Catholic English version): 7As Sodom and Gomorrha, and the neighbouring cities, in like manner, having given themselves to fornication, and going after other flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.
Young's Literal Translation: 7as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before -- an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering.
The Vulgate: 7sicut Sodoma et Gomorra et finitimae civitates simili modo exfornicatae et abeuntes post carnem alteram factae sunt exemplum ignis aeterni poenam sustinentes
Greek: 7ως σοδομα και γομορρα και αι περι αυτας πολεις τον ομοιον τουτοις τροπον εκπορνευσασαι και απελθουσαι οπισω σαρκος ετερας προκεινται δειγμα πυρος αιωνιου δικην υπεχουσαι
I don't speak Greek, but based on the Latin I'd guess that, rather than just speaking in general of perversion as many more modern versions do, it speaks literally of "other" flesh. "Alter" (or its feminine accusative form "alteram") means "another of a different sort" rather than "Alius (or Alia, Aliam)" which means "another of the same sort." I forget what they are exactly, but I know Greek has very similar words with the same clear distinctions. It seems "strange" flesh is a decent translation. The question then is, a different sort than what? I would guess than themselves, in which case it would fit much better with men going after women than other men. Going after strangers from foreign lands (sex trafficking?) or after angels would probably fit better still though. Bestiality is another definite possibility.
If I recall correctly, the Talmud calls oral and anal sex "unnatural," but then then goes on to say that it is in no way sinful for a man practices them with his wife so long as she is willing. He is not to force her to do anything, but if she's into it then its all good.
Parts do seem to say that it should only be foreplay though, lest he commit the Sin of Onan. The Sin of Onan is often taken to mean any ejaculation not meant to impregnate a woman (especially in reference to masturbation), but there is not a strong basis for that. Onan's sin does not really seem possible except in a culture practicing Levirate Marriage. He accepted his late brother's wife as his own as was supposed to, but did not fulfill his duty to impregnate her with a son that would bear his brother's name and take his brother's share of their father's inheritance. His wife wanted a son, but he pulled out early because by denying her a progeny he significantly increased his own inheritance. His sin was a very specific manifestation of greed.
Although many early church fathers thought otherwise, there does not seem to be any actual biblical support for the notion that sex for purposes other than procreation is sinful, so long as neither party is seeking a child. I think Onan's case likely would apply to the circumstance of a man slipping birth control pills into his wife's food when the two of them had agreed to try to make a baby though. In Jewish tradition sex for building mutual intimacy and enjoying each other is praiseworthy. I think this fits scripture much better. The new testament does explcitly say that one should not deny his or her spouse sex except for in the case of mutually agreed upon fasting, and that in that case they should be sure to set a definite end date for the fast and not deny each other sex forever.
Do Sodomy laws against oral sex apply to Cunnilingus too, or just Fellatio? I'm unaware of any reference to fellatio anywhere in scripture, but The Song of Solomon appears to portray cunnilingus in a very positive light.
KJV: 7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
NIV: 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
ASV: 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.
ESV:7just as(A) Sodom and Gomorrah and(B) the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and(C) pursued unnatural desire,[a] serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Douay-Rheims (Catholic English version): 7As Sodom and Gomorrha, and the neighbouring cities, in like manner, having given themselves to fornication, and going after other flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.
Young's Literal Translation: 7as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before -- an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering.
The Vulgate: 7sicut Sodoma et Gomorra et finitimae civitates simili modo exfornicatae et abeuntes post carnem alteram factae sunt exemplum ignis aeterni poenam sustinentes
Greek: 7ως σοδομα και γομορρα και αι περι αυτας πολεις τον ομοιον τουτοις τροπον εκπορνευσασαι και απελθουσαι οπισω σαρκος ετερας προκεινται δειγμα πυρος αιωνιου δικην υπεχουσαι
I don't speak Greek, but based on the Latin I'd guess that, rather than just speaking in general of perversion as many more modern versions do, it speaks literally of "other" flesh. "Alter" (or its feminine accusative form "alteram") means "another of a different sort" rather than "Alius (or Alia, Aliam)" which means "another of the same sort." I forget what they are exactly, but I know Greek has very similar words with the same clear distinctions. It seems "strange" flesh is a decent translation. The question then is, a different sort than what? I would guess than themselves, in which case it would fit much better with men going after women than other men. Going after strangers from foreign lands (sex trafficking?) or after angels would probably fit better still though. Bestiality is another definite possibility.
If I recall correctly, the Talmud calls oral and anal sex "unnatural," but then then goes on to say that it is in no way sinful for a man practices them with his wife so long as she is willing. He is not to force her to do anything, but if she's into it then its all good.
Parts do seem to say that it should only be foreplay though, lest he commit the Sin of Onan. The Sin of Onan is often taken to mean any ejaculation not meant to impregnate a woman (especially in reference to masturbation), but there is not a strong basis for that. Onan's sin does not really seem possible except in a culture practicing Levirate Marriage. He accepted his late brother's wife as his own as was supposed to, but did not fulfill his duty to impregnate her with a son that would bear his brother's name and take his brother's share of their father's inheritance. His wife wanted a son, but he pulled out early because by denying her a progeny he significantly increased his own inheritance. His sin was a very specific manifestation of greed.
Although many early church fathers thought otherwise, there does not seem to be any actual biblical support for the notion that sex for purposes other than procreation is sinful, so long as neither party is seeking a child. I think Onan's case likely would apply to the circumstance of a man slipping birth control pills into his wife's food when the two of them had agreed to try to make a baby though. In Jewish tradition sex for building mutual intimacy and enjoying each other is praiseworthy. I think this fits scripture much better. The new testament does explcitly say that one should not deny his or her spouse sex except for in the case of mutually agreed upon fasting, and that in that case they should be sure to set a definite end date for the fast and not deny each other sex forever.
Do Sodomy laws against oral sex apply to Cunnilingus too, or just Fellatio? I'm unaware of any reference to fellatio anywhere in scripture, but The Song of Solomon appears to portray cunnilingus in a very positive light.
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Shai Gar
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There aren't any currently on the books, but here is an example in which the current law prohibits sodomy within the context of rape. Here, however, the term used is "deviate sexual intercourse," which only applies to unmarried couples:
So if a husband forcibly sodomizes his wife, she apparently has no legal recourse.
Anyway, it does apply to both fellatio and cunnilingus. Like I said, the Biblical references don't carry much weight.
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Sodmony, Conservatism and Religion walk into a bar...
- Hey, Sodmony, what's up with your spelling - says Conservatism.
- Wait, do you mean this guy is... - gasps Religion. - Shame on you!
Sodmony breaths heavily: - Psst, I'm your father!
- Hey, Sodmony, what's up with your spelling - says Conservatism.
- Wait, do you mean this guy is... - gasps Religion. - Shame on you!
Sodmony breaths heavily: - Psst, I'm your father!
arbygil
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