SOLVE ME - INFP? ESTJ?

[Xavier]

The more I hear you, Xavier, the more I think we're discussing two issues (and it's not anything specific). I can hear elements of ISFJ and INFJ...and if we strip away all the stereotypes about type, it comes down more to preferences. The other fly in the ointment could be that you're possibly OCD, which doesn't help interpretation. Sometimes you have to separate a true personality from personality issues.

Some things to remember: Sensors can be very creative. Some strong writers are also ISFJs. Some ISFJs make terrible business decisions and aren't good with money. ISFJs can see the whole picture and "get it" when it comes to Ne. Not every Sensor is stuck in the past. Sensors also have wickedly fun senses of humor (sometimes dark and inappropriate too) - so knock out that stereotype, too.

I think F is wildly strong in you (Fe is common to INFJ and ISFJ). An ISFJ uses Ne as their fourth process - but Ni comes dead last. I'm not really hearing a lot of Ni in your processes. I think your Ni is weak and it seems like your Ne is a lot stronger. You seem to grasp more meaning and context around others more, than you do individually (Ne). You gather your conclusions using people's interpretation's more than your own, it seems (stronger Ne). You haven't quite come to your conclusions and instead you're looking for more group info. Perhaps you might get a personal "aha" moment from time to time, but you seem to look forward to looking to answers from more than one source to get that "aha" moment.

Ti is also the same process that INFJs and ISFJs use - you are definitely thinking through and breaking down the information. You are "analyzing, categorizing, and evaluating according to principles." So I'd agree that you have a strong Ti.

I think it really comes down to Fe versus Fi more. Which one is the "Trickster"? Which one trips you up more? INFJ and ISFJ both use Fi in the same way - in other words, we're not great at it. Fi is "valuing and considering importance, beliefs, and worth" and to me, this is the most telling in your words. You can be very critical here, and you don't take others' words at face value. You have to keep asking because you're not comfortable with the first answer (and this can be Fi out of control). Your self worth appears to be wrapped up in what others see in you. And that is very much Fe.

If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say you sound more like an ISFJ to me, but this is because I don't see a strong Ni but I do see a strong Fe.

I know you must be tired of searching websites, but try looking up the best fit processes website on INFJ and ISFJ - particularly here, here, here, and here. And for kicks, check out what it says about INFPs here and here.

ETA: Read more about Ne here.

Thank you Arbygil,

You're right that I probably do have OCD. I obsess over one thing and then I don' pay as much attention to other things. Whether I use more sensory or intuiting seems to depend on what that one thing is.

Also, I've noticed that I often think about what others have said and done in how it relates to me. I think I already explained this, but when someone does something I don't like, it causes a lot of negative emotions, and thinking about it becomes my main obsession, to the point where I can't relax or even see the future clearly. When I am overcome with emotions, I do make foolish decisions, and I am very, very impatient. No matter how much I look at the future, I am impatient to take care of whatever is troubling me.

If I am not feeling these negative emotions or great stress, I am good at thinking about the future, though irrational worrying always seems to go along with the thinking. The way I do creative writing shows fairly strong foresight. I think about the big picture, and I always start with a big outline and character profiles before I even start writing. A lot of planning goes into it.

And like I said before, I am often unsure if what I am thinking is the way it should be. If I watch a movie and like it, but then read a review that is mostly negative, I feel stupid for liking it, and although I may choose to defend the film based on my own thoughts about, I will also feel very discouraged, and perhaps try to make my thoughts about the movie fit with what it should be.

Also, I do not consider myself a fact person. I don't have good memory, so I don't really store facts. At the same time, I am more comfortable with facts. You don't have to question if you got it right, because it's already a fact. I think about abstract, non-fact stuff all the time, and in some ways I really like it, and maybe I'm good at it, but I question these sorts of thoughts more. I will speculate often, but I want to know the truth, and I will pursue it. This whole thing with typography is such a good example of all of this. It is not dealing with concrete facts, and as such I seem to be more interested in it, but I also want to know the truth about what I am. I can't just forget about this and do my schoolwork without resolution. I have trouble temporarily putting this behind me so I can get my school work done. In this way, I am being very impatient. I want to know immediately so I can concentrate on what I know I need to do.

So is this how it is for everyone here?

So, my theories-- I have to look more at those links you gave me. One possibility is that I am a natural ISFJ, and then after experiencing family conflict, and stressing out about the past, present, and future, I have changed into more of a INFP or INFJ. Then again, It could be a few other combinations as well. It may be possible that the functions I used the most may be "weaker" functions that I have developed over time.

What I am sure about is fear, stress, anger, and obsessions have all been a part of my life. That is bound to have an affect on how I operate.

Wow...so much to think about.

So has what I've said in this post confirmed your theories, or are you rethinking them?

 

[Flavus Aquila]

 

[arbygil]

The good news though, Xavier, is that you're finding what's right for you. Again, I would caution about putting a lot of stock into considering the future. Sometimes we can use a process often, but we might not be successfully using it. Also when things really get rough our shadow process rears its head:

Under extreme stress, fatigue or illness, the ISFJ's shadow may appear - a negative form of ENTP. Example characteristics are:

* being very intolerant of others who do not act competently
* suggesting impractical ideas
* being critical of others, and finding fault with almost everything
* having a gloomy view of the future
* being argumentative

In order to know your personality, you have to know what you were like when you were healthy, and without the stress. We can assume things about ourselves when we're under extreme stress (trust me, I know - I've been there!). When you're under a tremendous amount of stress, normal processes break down. We start using our secondary processes to handle the stress. Von Hase had an excellent discussion a while back about how we break down, but I don't remember where the link is right now. If you want it I can try and search for it on this board.

But truly, in order to really find your personality type, you're going to have to go back to what is "normal" and "right" for you - which means going back to when you were healthy. Observing you now will bring up all kinds of conflicting answers because the real you and the shadow you are competing for space. So to get to the REAL you, we have to discover who you were without the extreme stress.

And that's where the real work begins.

PS:

Shadow INFJ

Under extreme stress, fatigue or illness, the INFJ's shadow may appear - a negative form of ESTP. Example characteristics are:

* acting very impulsively, making decisions without thinking them through
* doing things to excess - e.g.: eating, drinking or exercising
* being critical of others, and finding fault with almost everything
* being preoccupied about unimportant details and doing things that have no meaning
* acting in a very materialistic and selfish way
* cutting corners, breaking the rules, and even contradicting the INFJ's own values


Shadow INFP

Under extreme stress, fatigue or illness, the INFP's shadow may appear - a negative form of ESTJ. Example characteristics are:

* being very critical and find fault with almost everything
* doing things to excess - e.g.: eating, drinking or exercising
* becoming bossy or domineering and ignoring others' feelings
* being pedantic about unimportant details

 

[arbygil]

((How did all those cats get into those crates??)) Lol! I guess it's safe...

 

[Xavier]

The good news though, Xavier, is that you're finding what's right for you. Again, I would caution about putting a lot of stock into considering the future. Sometimes we can use a process often, but we might not be successfully using it. Also when things really get rough our shadow process rears its head:

Under extreme stress, fatigue or illness, the ISFJ's shadow may appear - a negative form of ENTP. Example characteristics are:

* being very intolerant of others who do not act competently
* suggesting impractical ideas
* being critical of others, and finding fault with almost everything
* having a gloomy view of the future
* being argumentative

In order to know your personality, you have to know what you were like when you were healthy, and without the stress. We can assume things about ourselves when we're under extreme stress (trust me, I know - I've been there!). When you're under a tremendous amount of stress, normal processes break down. We start using our secondary processes to handle the stress. Von Hase had an excellent discussion a while back about how we break down, but I don't remember where the link is right now. If you want it I can try and search for it on this board.

But truly, in order to really find your personality type, you're going to have to go back to what is "normal" and "right" for you - which means going back to when you were healthy. Observing you now will bring up all kinds of conflicting answers because the real you and the shadow you are competing for space. So to get to the REAL you, we have to discover who you were without the extreme stress.

And that's where the real work begins.

PS:

Shadow INFJ

Under extreme stress, fatigue or illness, the INFJ's shadow may appear - a negative form of ESTP. Example characteristics are:

* acting very impulsively, making decisions without thinking them through
* doing things to excess - e.g.: eating, drinking or exercising
* being critical of others, and finding fault with almost everything
* being preoccupied about unimportant details and doing things that have no meaning
* acting in a very materialistic and selfish way
* cutting corners, breaking the rules, and even contradicting the INFJ's own values


Shadow INFP

Under extreme stress, fatigue or illness, the INFP's shadow may appear - a negative form of ESTJ. Example characteristics are:

* being very critical and find fault with almost everything
* doing things to excess - e.g.: eating, drinking or exercising
* becoming bossy or domineering and ignoring others' feelings
* being pedantic about unimportant details

Arbygil, you've been very helpful. I just want you to know that I appreciate you helping me with this.

So, did you read my last post? It was a reply to your other one, and I mentioned a lot of this stuff.

This sounds a lot like me by the way...both shadow processes, especially INFJ.

Anyway, if you want, you could look at my previous response to you.

Another thing that might help is part of my PM conversation with another [very helpful] member here. This is my response to him suggesting that I might be a natural ISTP:

Yeah, I'll explain this more in depth later, but for now I will explain that I do not believe I am materialistic or mechanical at all. It fits with what I said about myself as a child, but I still think there is more to consider, and I need to find out more from my parents.
Anyway, my roommate is an ESFJ, and we don't get along at all. We have conflicts, and he never understands why I am upset with him. He thinks I need to look at what actually happened instead of concentrating on the more abstract stuff. He doesn't care so much about motive, whereas I do very much. Also, he seems to judge things by their cover, whereas I look deeper. Overall, he is quite concrete.
We also clash because of our similarities-- we both become angry at each other and become aggressive, especially when we offend each other. Usually, we both think we are right and the other is wrong.

​

I don't think I am ISTP, or that I even used to be. ISFJ seems much more likely.

The thing is, I need to find out the difference between between the i/e. It seems like it should be obvious, but when you look at everything, it really seems confusing.

EDIT: after reading the quick discription about ISFJ, it does not sound like me (http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/isfj.html). It sounds almost like the voice of reason type, and I am not one. I am too unreasonable so much of the time.

 

[Xavier]

Haha...

Nice.

One quick note: I don't have the need to make everything perfectly strait or organized. There are very specific things. When I do try to relax (usually unsuccessfully), I have to make absolutely certain that the faucets are off and the door is locked. Also, in order for me to relax, I need to feel like interpersonal conflict is resolved, otherwise I will obsess over it. When I am not trying to relax, I don't care much about locked doors or faucets, though my apparent OCD still comes into play in other ways.

 

[arbygil]

Arbygil, you've been very helpful. I just want you to know that I appreciate you helping me with this.

So, did you read my last post? It was a reply to your other one, and I mentioned a lot of this stuff.

This sounds a lot like me by the way...both shadow processes, especially INFJ.

Anyway, if you want, you could look at my previous response to you.

Another thing that might help is part of my PM conversation with another [very helpful] member here. This is my response to him suggesting that I might be a natural ISTP:

Yeah, I'll explain this more in depth later, but for now I will explain that I do not believe I am materialistic or mechanical at all. It fits with what I said about myself as a child, but I still think there is more to consider, and I need to find out more from my parents.
Anyway, my roommate is an ESFJ, and we don't get along at all. We have conflicts, and he never understands why I am upset with him. He thinks I need to look at what actually happened instead of concentrating on the more abstract stuff. He doesn't care so much about motive, whereas I do very much. Also, he seems to judge things by their cover, whereas I look deeper. Overall, he is quite concrete.
We also clash because of our similarities-- we both become angry at each other and become aggressive, especially when we offend each other. Usually, we both think we are right and the other is wrong.

​

I don't think I am ISTP, or that I even used to be. ISFJ seems much more likely.

The thing is, I need to find out the difference between between the i/e. It seems like it should be obvious, but when you look at everything, it really seems confusing.

Lol! I read it, but I responded to you before the edits took place.

I still stand by my earlier thought that you "feel" more Sensory to me - but like I said, you could be using more processes to compensate for your main process not being utilized for one reason or another. And as I also said before Sensors can be incredibly creative people. Slapping an "S" on something does not downgrade intelligence, strength of character, wisdom, or insight. It just changes what you use, and how often you use it.

I also stand by my earlier thought that you're stronger with the Ne process than the Ni process - and Ni is what INFJs use most often (usually). And yeah, it is difficult to to "know thyself" and it's difficult to find oneself, but eventually you'll have to just say "this works for now" and go with it. It's not a big deal if you can't categorize yourself right now, but I do know how frustrating it can be when we want to know who we are and we're not seeing the forest for the trees.

And Feeling is a primary process in you...otherwise, you wouldn't care so much about what I said or what others say. The truth issue is an interesting quirk, but again it could really be Ti working overtime. Ti is in the third slot for both INFJ and ISFJ. It also sounds like you want specific, concrete examples that you can take to the bank, and I'm not sure if you're finished processing all the information you have. I can tell you on a personal level that if our situations were reversed that (as an INFJ) I would have taken a bit more time to analyze the links and internalize them, so I could ask personal questions about the information from the links.

But good luck, Xavier - keep searching. I think it's time to take all of this information and start analyzing what you're seeing. Don't get frustrated yet - relax, and internalize it for a while. Then, after a few days, see if anything new pops up.

 

[Lucifer]

Do I focus exclusively on your external environment to the exclusion of all else? No I don't. In fact, sometimes I miss the very obvious when it comes to the external environment.

If that be the case it doesn't sound like you have extraverted sensing as a tertiary.

Still, the external environment has an effect on me. For instance, I will feel uncomfortable doing school work if I don't like the environment for whatever reason, so I will go to a place that accommodates my preferences.

Same here and I have a very strong preference for intuition. See that little tidbit doesn't technically fall under your Mbti preferences.It's just pref in general.

Do I like drawing lessons from the past? Well, I take the past into consideration, but it's not at the forefront of my mind most of the time. I actually forget a lot of details of the past. I would not say I determine the way things should be from the past.

If that's the case then I doubt you have introverted sensing as a dominant function.

I do, however, tend to dwell in the past. For instance, if a family member said or did something that was offensive, and I didn't get a chance to talk about it, I will obsess over what they said or did, and then I'll want to reach resolution and find out what they meant, and I usually do this by talking to them.

That doesn't fall under Mbti preferences either, at least not in the intuition vs. sensation dichotomy.

I am guessing you are an introverted intuitive. What say you?

 

[Xavier]

If that be the case it doesn't sound like you have extraverted sensing as a tertiary.

Same here and I have a very strong preference for intuition. See that little tidbit doesn't technically fall under your Mbti preferences.It's just pref in general.

If that's the case then I doubt you have introverted sensing as a dominant function.

That doesn't fall under Mbti preferences either, at least not in the intuition vs. sensation dichotomy.

I am guessing you are an introverted intuitive. What say you?

Yes...maybe...yes. I'm not really sure. I'll get back to you on that.

 

[Xavier]

I think it's time to take all of this information and start analyzing what you're seeing. Don't get frustrated yet - relax, and internalize it for a while. Then, after a few days, see if anything new pops up.

I agree completely. I have definitely been taking the information and analyzing it, but because these things are so unclear, I am looking for help from others. It's safe to say that I wouldn't just take your word for something. I would need to actually believe it myself.

 

[Lucifer]

Yes...maybe...yes. I'm not really sure. I'll get back to you on that.

Why are you unsure?

 

[Flavus Aquila]

I hate quoting myself, but here goes, from the sticky thread "distinguishing INFJs from INFPs":

The 'self conversation' of an INFJ and INFP - moving from primary, to auxilary, tertiary and inferior.

I have taken the examples of each function, given at: http://www.famoustype.com/functions.htm and have re-ordered them sequentially, according to the INfJ/INFP functions. The examples concern the building of fences.

INFJ - Ni Fe Ti Se
Why do they want to do this and what is the deal with fences anyway? Is this necessary? (Ni); How will it affect the neighborhood, and what will the neighbors think? (Fe); I want to analyze the structure and placement of the fence. (Ti); I want to decorate the fence and make sure that it looks stylish and appealing. (Se)

INFP - Fi Ne Si Te
I want it to be my own special fence that I can share with others over time. (Fi); I want to design the fence. (Ne); I’ll take care of looking at the instructions and making sure that we follow the established guidlines. (Si); Is doing this cost effective? Will it be useful? (Te)

Unless I am mistaken, the order of the thought process is important, as the primary presumably directs the very first impression one has of the prospect of a new fence.

FOR THIS DISCUSSION, THE PHRASES IN BOTH CARICATURES WERE NOT SPECIFIC TO INFJS OR INFPS, SO THEY MIGHT BE HELPFUL IN DETERMINING YOUR COGNITIVE FUNCTIONS (IN THEIR OWN LIMITED WAY).

 

[Xavier]

Why are you unsure?

Because not everything adds up. Some things Arbygil said line up with things that I was thinking, and it contradicts some things.

I may be more introverted and intuitive as apposed to introverted and sensory, but I I don't know if I'm more Ni or Ne. There's a lot I feel like I don't know.

EDIT: Alright, I need to study for a test, so I need to stop researching typology stuff and work on studying for school. After thinking about what I've read, I believe I am INFP + ISFJ + OCD + stress, which comes out looking differently depending on what I'm doing/thinking/feeling. I am going to observe myself in life and look for these "ah-ha!" moments. There's still a lot I need to figure out.

 

[arbygil]

Lol! Go study, Xavier. And if it's any consolation (I kept this out of my observation) my very first instinct was INFP...but I changed my mind after a few things. Who knows? It could be a sneaky little process.

 

[arbygil]

Last thing I'll put...

Von Hase has a good break down here on how to decide. It might help your analysis. But go! Study now!

 

[Lucifer]

Because not everything adds up. Some things Arbygil said line up with things that I was thinking, and it contradicts some things.

Like I said earlier you don't 100% fit into your type.

Not everything has to add up.

 

[Xavier]

Like I said earlier you don't 100% fit into your type.

Not everything has to add up.

Yeah I know it doesn't have to be exact, but I still want to find out if I'm more one than another.

 

[Milon]

As I understand MBTI, your mind has preferences for function use. You've got an introverted (read: internal) and an extroverted (read: external) perception function, and an introverted and an extroverted judging function. The strength of each function does not necessarily imply the order of their preference.

Also, MBTI is only a limited classification system. I used to place great value on finding out what I was. I now realize that MBTI might be useful as a descriptor, but it's horrible as a definition! It tells me how I might be, not how I really am. Why should I be bound by the thought that "if I use Ni as my primary funciton, my secondary function will be Fe"? It's not necessarily true since everyone is different.

 

[Xavier]

As I understand MBTI, your mind has preferences for function use. You've got an introverted (read: internal) and an extroverted (read: external) perception function, and an introverted and an extroverted judging function. The strength of each function does not necessarily imply the order of their preference.

Also, MBTI is only a limited classification system. I used to place great value on finding out what I was. I now realize that MBTI might be useful as a descriptor, but it's horrible as a definition! It tells me how I might be, not how I really am. Why should I be bound by the thought that "if I use Ni as my primary funciton, my secondary function will be Fe"? It's not necessarily true since everyone is different.

You know, it's good to hear that. Thanks. I feel a little bit more comfortable now.

I am growing less concerned with finding out my type (order of preference and all that), but I still want to figure out if I use my Ni or Ne more, or if I use my Fi or Fe more. It's interesting stuff.

Maybe if an INFJ could describe how their mind works...like how they get those "ah-ha" moments and what they are like. That might give me more understanding.

And then with Fe, that means mostly empathy right? Like if you're feeling joy but someone else seems angry, you will ignore your feelings and feel sympathy/empathy for the other person?

I am not sure if I do this much. I know I use Fe to some extent, but it's mostly with people I care about.

The thing is, I'm afraid that I normally focus on my own feelings more than others', which is unfortunate, because it sounds a bit selfish. If I feel happy and someone I love feels depressed or stressed, I would feel bad for them; but if I'm angry or having a lot of stress, I think that I might normally be more consumed in my own stress than the stress of a loved one.

Also, I may have a strong Ne because I seem to focus on what other people are thinking, and of course there's that whole quest for validity-- I like it when other people confirm my own thoughts, or even if they tell me I don't have to worry about something, that goes a long way. At the same time, I will often not take people's word for things.

I'm also wondering, do you guys shut down when there is conflict? I try to avoid conflict, but when a conflict starts, I really try to end it. I get pretty into it and I will confront them, unless it's a stranger. I get annoyed when people close down in a conflict or try to walk away, because when that happens there can't be any closure or peace of mind for me. I want them to engage and explain why they did what they did. Sometimes I do this calmly, but often I do it with a variety of negative emotions.