Step away from the treadmill!

[Quinlan]

The evidence that exercise and a moderate and varied diet has many health benefits is much stronger than the evidence that substantial long term weight loss (which is very rare) has many (if any) health benefits.

There are many studies where participants have been put on diet and exercise programs and the participants have experienced the same health benefits right across the group regardless of whether or not they lost weight, they all got the benefit.

So in my opinion, diet and exercise = good, not eating 2 cakes a day = good, just don't expect it to make you really slim in the long term.

After having a think about TDHT's response, the way she indirectly called into question my weight, habits and character and her eagerness to offer unsolicited advice I suspect she may make a living out of people's desire to lose weight, just a guess.

 

[Norton]

This is the way science works. It creeps along study after study, hopefully converging to a better explanation of reality. This is an epidemiological study, which, like most such studies, does not prove causation. This study has to be viewed in the context of many more investigations that show that losing weight leads to a healthier outcome. For example, many type 2 diabetics could get off insulin if they were to lose just 5-10% of their bodyweight.

 

[sassafras]

Hey calm down, I even said the thread title was a joke! Exercise is great, gyms are great (if you can afford them), I never said otherwise.

Uh? I was calm. I think you misinterpreted my facetiousness for hyperventilation. Go internet!

After having a think about TDHT's response, the way she indirectly called into question my weight, habits and character and her eagerness to offer unsolicited advice I suspect she may make a living out of people's desire to lose weight, just a guess.

Hmm. Well, it was certainly not my intention to call anyone's weight into question, least of all yours; I'm sorry if you felt like I singled you out personally. And no, I don't make a living out of people's desires to lose weight. I do, however, often talk about the benefits of cardiovascular exercise as a companion to treating depression and anxiety based on my own experiences. I run every single day and it's changed my life, physically and psychologically.

Weight itself is just a number. True, people run to lose weight, most of them for vanity-- others for personal health. Very few, however, use the treadmill properly. Getting started on a program is hard enough as it is, and most people go easy on themselves. That's an observation, not a judgment. Introduce another reason why they should refrain from doing so, and people take it even easier. And then, when they don't see the results they want (and here I am assuming you're getting on the treadmill for a reason; you have a personal goal, be it weight loss or an increase in stamina), they give up. Is that not true?

 

[Quinlan]

Introduce another reason why they should refrain from doing so, and people take it even easier.

I believe in people making informed decisions for themselves, sure this kind of information might be taken the wrong way but that is no reason to hide it or ignore it altogether. There are many many studies that go against the weight loss dogma and they are too often ignored by the media. I don't want people to lose motivation but I do think people should be aiming for realistic goals based on evidence (and if they exercise for the right reasons they'll be more likely to stick with it, too many times people aim for dramatic weight loss and give up because their expectations were always unrealistic). I have heard that bariatric surgeons expect around 10-18% weight loss after surgery, this study shows people losing weight beyond what we expect from our most aggressive medical treatments, so it's not surprising that it might be dangerous.

And then, when they don't see the results they want (and here I am assuming you're getting on the treadmill for a reason; you have a personal goal, be it weight loss or an increase in stamina), they give up. Is that not true?

Exactly! I'm saying that the goal of increasing stamina is much more realistic, achievable and likely to have just as many health benefits (without the risks) as large weight loss.

 

[NeverAmI]

I think the moral of the story here is...

drumroll please!

I SAID DRUMROLL!!!

Everything in moderation.


On a separate note, I am truly ASTOUNDED at what our bodies let us get by with.

 

[Quinlan]

This is the way science works. It creeps along study after study, hopefully converging to a better explanation of reality.

True, the problem is certain axioms that were based on shaky evidence to begin with can gather large amounts of momentum, because all new information is interpreted through that lens. Once whole industries and departments get behind it becomes pretty much impossible to question the original axiom, too many people have a stake in it by then.

This is an epidemiological study, which, like most such studies, does not prove causation.

True, yet too often pro weight loss/anti fat correlations are blindly accepted as proof of causation, because those findings are more comfortable to us and our cultural biases.

This study has to be viewed in the context of many more investigations that show that losing weight leads to a healthier outcome. For example, many type 2 diabetics could get off insulin if they were to lose just 5-10% of their bodyweight.

Yeah I already mentioned that a small weight loss is good for diabetics, we've known for a long time that losing weight can improve certain healh markers (ignoring for a second that usually those in the same program that didn't lose weight also experience the same healh improvements) but as far as I know we've only ever assumed that those improvements will result in a longer life. So these findings are interesting and should encourage more research but what we can take from it is that we shouldn't always assume weight loss (outside of disease) is a positive thing.

 

[DoveAlexa]

On the flip side, it might encourage people not to let themselves gain weight even more now, out of fear of losing years off their lives trying to lose the weight later. Might cause an increase in the weight-loss nervous diseases more than anything though, as they tend to be the only ones really watching it so much, or they only ones who would care about this study.

 

[Feelings]

Pure weight loss seems easiest with reduced caloric intake. Takes a lot of time on the treadmill to burn even a few hundred calories I ate very little for a few weeks and lost many pounds
Health benefits of cardio are great though
I'm 220 pounds now. I should probably eat less and jog every few days. I want to be in shape so I can do some hikes this summer. I drop 4 pounds a week easily if I starve. I heard more than 2 pounds a week is unhealthy though. Hum. Should probably put some effort into getting into hiking shape. There's a lot of great beauty to see out there, especially a 2 to 3 hour drive out. Suppose I could pack a tent or something. I don't look forward to shitting in the woods though. My dream hike is 12 hours long though. It's so pretty in pictures.

 

[Soulful]

I keep thinking about this.

Yes, the media's focus is very elementary and polar. Thin = good, fat = bad. To add to that, thin = healthy, fat = unhealthy, which isn't necessarily true.

However, some people would benefit greatly from losing weight. Whether we're talking about developing a proclivity toward diabetes, problems conceiving, added stress on their joints and suffering knee & other joint pains, being unable to walk later in life, greater risk coming out of anaesthesia, the mental and emotional burden of being overweight, the cardiovascular burdens, and so on and so forth. That's only based on excess weight. Then there are certain dietary habits that many overweight persons (and thin persons) keep, which are also unhealthy regardless of how they affect one's weight. If this article is correct, then if anything it's a double-edged sword. I don't like the ways in which the media and even our medical institutions generalize weight, dietary habits, and even exercise habits as though they ought to apply to everyone equally, but being overweight IS usually unhealthy, whichever way you slice it. Losing 15% may be a risk for some people, but so is being terribly overweight.

The focus should be on healthy living, not on the number on the scale. But saying "Well, you weigh 300 lbs but you should lose no more than 40 lbs" isn't a good idea either, imho. (That number may be on the extreme end, but I suspect that if there is a risk with losing weight, the people who have more to lose are also more likely to be at at increased risk.)

Like I said, I'd be interested to know HOW the participants in the article lost weight and whether that had any impact on mortality rates. I wouldn't be surprised if that had something to do with it.

 

[Skathac]

Pure weight loss seems easiest with reduced caloric intake. Takes a lot of time on the treadmill to burn even a few hundred calories I ate very little for a few weeks and lost many pounds
Health benefits of cardio are great though
I'm 220 pounds now. I should probably eat less and jog every few days. I want to be in shape so I can do some hikes this summer. I drop 4 pounds a week easily if I starve. I heard more than 2 pounds a week is unhealthy though. Hum. Should probably put some effort into getting into hiking shape. There's a lot of great beauty to see out there, especially a 2 to 3 hour drive out. Suppose I could pack a tent or something. I don't look forward to shitting in the woods though. My dream hike is 12 hours long though. It's so pretty in pictures.

Don't gotta be thin to hike compadre. Just get your leg muscles used to carrying your weight around and your cardiovascular strong enough to where you are comfortable climbing hills for the better part of a day. Doin yer business in the woods isn't so bad, just pack plenty of TP and remember balance is key and you'll be allright. Also be mindful of poison oak/ivy, briars, and snakes when you go to answer the call to nature. Also pack what you are comfortable digesting on a day to day basis, the worst thing you can do is eat something new and find out that your guts want to get it out of your system as fast as possible. Remember compass, good boots with ankle support, first aid kit, stout field knife, belt, and bug spray (topographical map is optional but helpful). Plenty of water, I prefer for a day 4 liters minimum and an extra container with gatorade for the electrolytes. Good strong walking stick is suggested too, strong enough to support your weight and then some. I prefer a shovel but you get strange looks hiking with a shovel, course I don't like to leave used TP and other things laying around on the top of the ground, it also functions as a damn fine snake killer. Food related trash I pack out.

Ok so I rambled quite a bit, you've probably been hiking before and know all this, if not theres some advice bud.

 

[sassafras]

I believe in people making informed decisions for themselves, sure this kind of information might be taken the wrong way but that is no reason to hide it or ignore it altogether. There are many many studies that go against the weight loss dogma and they are too often ignored by the media. I don't want people to lose motivation but I do think people should be aiming for realistic goals based on evidence (and if they exercise for the right reasons they'll be more likely to stick with it, too many times people aim for dramatic weight loss and give up because their expectations were always unrealistic). I have heard that bariatric surgeons expect around 10-18% weight loss after surgery, this study shows people losing weight beyond what we expect from our most aggressive medical treatments, so it's not surprising that it might be dangerous.

Acknowledged.

Still, I kind of feel like I'm being accused of something here and I feel the need to point out that nowhere in my posts, presently or previously, have I ever advocated drastic weight loss or weight loss purely for the sake of vanity.

Exactly! I'm saying that the goal of increasing stamina is much more realistic, achievable and likely to have just as many health benefits (without the risks) as large weight loss.

Well, I personally come from the school of thought that most goals are realistic, so long as there is a proper plan and expectations do not exceed one's personal capacity (be it health or otherwise) I do not compute one goal as being 'more realistic' or 'achievable' than another. But I guess that's something we can agree to disagree on.

 

[Shai Gar]

wrong

 

[Quinlan]

The best hike I ever went on was the Tongariro crossing, you walk right between "Mount Doom" from the lord of the rings and another volcanoe.

That morning, I skipped breakfast, that really stuffed me later .

 

[Quinlan]

Well, I personally come from the school of thought that most goals are realistic, so long as there is a proper plan and expectations do not exceed one's personal capacity (be it health or otherwise) I do not compute one goal as being 'more realistic' or 'achievable' than another. But I guess that's something we can agree to disagree on.

Basically I think, improvements in other health makers are much more "within one's personal capacity" than long term weight loss. You'll improve blood pressure, blood sugar, fitness levels long before you lose large amounts of weight.

 

[DoveAlexa]

I prefer a shovel but you get strange looks hiking with a shovel, course I don't like to leave used TP and other things laying around on the top of the ground, it also functions as a damn fine snake killer.

They are also good for killing Zombies !

 

[Quinlan]

wrong

Enlightening.

 

[sassafras]

Basically I think, improvements in other health makers are much more "within one's personal capacity" than long term weight loss. You'll improve blood pressure, blood sugar, fitness levels long before you lose large amounts of weight.

I see you mean and I do agree. But in terms of goal-setting in general, it really depends on want to achieve. Of course certain things are going to be easier to accomplish than others; doesn't make them more realistic just because you get them sooner than later. If a large amount of weight loss is specifically what you're after, there are ways to achieve that goal healthfully and with little to no risk. Unfortunately, usually those methods take a lot of time.

 

[Quinlan]

And again, that depends on your goals and what you want to achieve. Of course certain things are going to be easier to accomplish than others. Doesn't make them more realistic just because you get them sooner than later. If a large amount of weight loss is specifically what you're after, there are ways to achieve that goal healthfully and with little to no risk.

What I'm getting at is the effect the difficulty of weight loss (more accurately the maintenace of that weight loss) has on motivation. Significant long term weight loss is very very rare though millions and millions of people try and achieve it every year. When people fail to lose the weight they think "what's the point? I'm not losing any weight why bother with healthy behaviours?". So they give up entirely and miss out on all the health benefits they were getting even though they weren't losing weight. If governments/medical establishment shifted their focus away from weight loss and ideal BMIs and onto promoting the actual behaviours themselves, you'd see a lot more people exercising because they can clearly see the benefits and don't have the burden of trying to fit into an arbitrary weight category.

 

[sassafras]

What I'm getting at is the effect the difficulty of weight loss (more accurately the maintenace of that weight loss) has on motivation. Significant long term weight loss is very very rare though millions and millions of people try and achieve it every year. When people fail to lose the weight they think "what's the point? I'm not losing any weight why bother with healthy behaviours?". So they give up entirely and miss out on all the health benefits they were getting even though they weren't losing weight. If governments/medical establishment shifted their focus away from weight loss and ideal BMIs and onto promoting the actual behaviours themselves, you'd see a lot more people exercising because they can clearly see the benefits and don't have the burden of trying to fit into an arbitrary weight category.

I agree that the focus should be on more telling measures of health than the flawed BMI. To begin with, I don't understand why-- if we are going to be looking at body size and composition in the first place-- we don't look to the hip-waist ratio and body fat percentages instead.

Still, even if people were comparing their blood sugar levels instead of their pant sizes, I still don't see it working any differently than having an emphasis on weight loss alone. The biggest issue is people don't pay attention to their health if they have it; or if they feel they can still get along at the level they're at. Usually, the majority of people can go on ignoring the smoke until they feel the heat of the fire.

I think weight-loss is more socially emphasized over all because its something that you can visually track and other people can notice. You get more of a voluntary reaction from someone after gaining or losing ten pounds than if you've spiked or lowered your blood pressure, for example. But that's a whole other thread.

 

[DoveAlexa]

The biggest issue is people don't pay attention to their health if they have it; or if they feel they can still get along at the level they're at. Usually, the majority of people can go on ignoring the smoke until they feel the heat of the fire.

This reminds me of how I've been trying so hard to avoid eating any deli meats. Problem is I work in a deli and I am working witgh it and around it all day long, so sometimes I just snap and scarf a whole bunch of it. More than a bunch of it lately. I know that nitrates are carcinogens and eating all that sodium will kill my heart and liver, so I am desperate to kill the urge. It's really hard though. We are not all built with the same urges, btw, so I understand if you do not understand.