Stephen Fry is a hero

[Y0u]

[MENTION=4115]Lark[/MENTION]
The other half of that question.

I am not cherry picking any more than the major religions are cherry picking…and the religious extremist are really cherry picking.
I have read the Bible several times…I have also read the book of mormon, and the Koran.
The old testament God (Elohim) was a bully…he wouldn’t even let Abraham look upon his face (or he would die) so God revealed his “back parts” to him.
All that shit he did to Job to win a bet with Satan, whom he supposedly had power over.
Anyone who says that the Bible is the original text is insane and is deluding themselves because that answer is easier than the real one.

I think the Bible makes a whole lot more sense if one understands God in the Spinozist sense. Then, a lack of faith in God translates as basically believing the whole thing is beyond saving. Thus, one who embraces life finds faith in God. Such a view is still probably viewed by most as heresy.

Also, it is necessarily true that meaning is lost or distorted, if only in translation... anyone familiar with translating will understand why. The translator has to choose verbiage that they think best represents the intended meaning of the passage, and are always colored by them, knowingly or not.

 

[Skarekrow]

I think the Bible makes a whole lot more sense if one understands God in the Spinozist sense. Then, a lack of faith in God translates as basically believing the whole thing is beyond saving. Thus, one who embraces life finds faith in God.

Also, it is necessarily true that meaning is lost or distorted, if only in translation... anyone familiar with translating will understand why. The translator has to choose verbiage that they think best represents the intended meaning of the passage, and are always colored by them, knowingly or not.

I agree with what you say…but let’s take the actual word “Hell” it does not belong in the Bible AT ALL.
Hell comes from the word and name “Hel” which was Odin’s niece I think…anyhow she ruled over the underworld, so when anyone died, they would go to Hel.
In the middle ages it became synonymous with an underground root cellar where they would also store the bodies in the winter until they could bury them when the ground thawed.
The original words were Hades, Sheol, Gehenna, and Tartarus.
Hades was the underworld where EVERYONE went. Sheol means the same. Gehenna was the burning trash heap outside of Jerusalem that Jesus likened men’s hearts to.
Tartarus mean a pit.
And yet, all four, were incorporated into one word, that was given a new definition when the Inferno made it’s rounds throughout Europe into a place of fire and everlasting torture.
Just one example…gotta run…ttyl.

 

[Erlian]

OK, so maybe you should have picked a different title. I know you're stating an opinion, but something like "I really like what Fry has to say, what do you think?" would work better.

maybe you should have thought of that before posting the title in a subforum known for debate.

You're right. And I don't blame you for it. You have every right to do so. I just hadn't expected it and maybe I should have.

So which one is it, is he a hero, or not?

I explained in the part that you quoted that even if you disagree with someone he can still be a hero.

Again, i understand what you're saying but just because you state something eloquently doesn't make you a hero.

Correct. He states a lot of things eloquently though. And all the other things I mentioned in my post. Together they make you a hero

way to make broad generalizations...Sure, there are on average more atheists in Europe than the US, but still, that last statement is just wrong and abrasive.

I feel slightly bad, but I baited you into this one. Check the link in the OP it states the source. There's still too much discrimination of atheists in America.

 

[Lark]

@Lark
The other half of that question.

I am not cherry picking any more than the major religions are cherry picking…and the religious extremist are really cherry picking.
I have read the Bible several times…I have also read the book of mormon, and the Koran.
The old testament God (Elohim) was a bully…he wouldn’t even let Abraham look upon his face (or he would die) so God revealed his “back parts” to him.
All that shit he did to Job to win a bet with Satan, whom he supposedly had power over.
Anyone who says that the Bible is the original text is insane and is deluding themselves because that answer is easier than the real one.

Yeah, its disappointing you feel that way to be honest, there are alternative narratives to the one you present here.

Jung wrote a really good book on the book of Job. For one.

 

[Lark]

Hell could be considered being separated from God, so one could argue that we are currently there….and then what have we done to deserve this? Sounds rather unjust to me, but of course we as humans have quite an incomplete picture of what is truly just or is truly true for that matter.
Because I was speaking of the Abrahamic bully, I was also referring to that version of Hell (the fire and brimstone and eternal torture palace) which I find ridiculously extrapolated from Dante’s Inferno which the church used to “put the fear of god” in people back in those times.
I think you would find we have more to agree on than disagree Lark, we just clash in style.

Dante's Inferno is no more scriptural than Milton's Paradise Lost, they are literary, I think they are on a par with biblical texts in their power but that's not canon in any faith, I'm pretty sure of it, properly understood Dante's depiction of hell is very much one of just desserts and natural consequences too, so its a poor example of what you mean to convey.

We are not entirely seperate from God as it is, although it is not the same as being in the divine presence, we have the image of God in the form of other people, for instance.

I dont know what's unjust about life, its a gift from God, its only made awful by people being human, all too human, and at the end of it all people are reunited with God too if they want. Love doesnt compell and its the lesson to be taken from life and death and God if people want to so see it.

 

[Lark]

I like how you described him. Just like how I like Stephen Fry's words. I agree with neither of you.

Well lucky enough for you that's allowed. For now.

You are much like Stephen Fry. Extremistisc in your opinion. No understanding for the other side.

I won't discuss whether it's courageous, but will address your point of the atheists.

They're likely to be heralded as some kind of prophet by a legion of conservative, unreflective and emotion driven enemies of open-mindedness and science. I have no idea who would want to be part of such a conformist herd of easily satisfied individuals when it comes to questions of metaphysics or philosophy or science.

Really especially the last part. You get all that from one book? Close-minded much. I'm open to all sources equally and will critically reflect on all. On any topic.
I found some nice answers to metaphysical/philosophical/spiritual questions by atheists. And lucky you, it's narrated by Stephen Fry. Now be open-minded and check it out.
There are plenty of answers to tough questions in the atheist world, in this case by "the humanists".
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=stephen+fry+narrates

Nawh, I think I need to do that like I need a withering life limiting condition. Thanks all the same.

 

[Lark]

uncalled for, regardless of your opinion. It's posts like these that make me not want to read your legitimate opinions. If you want to discuss things, and even bring pathos into an argument, at least be rational and decent about it.

You obviously dont know Fry, he's a raging athiest, of a pretty rude type and its evident from this video. Which I seen disseminated far and wide across the internet by people who are very similar, very, very similar in character to Fry and exhibit the same sort of loathsome disrespect for any kind of reverential attitude what so ever.

The anger and disdain with which I've seen him treat this topic, including outbursts on his popular TV general knowledge show which appear to me to be quite off topic in the context they are delivered in all colour my opinion of him and if you think its inappropriate then I guess we're both going to have to disagree about it. There was a time I thought the guy was very entertaining, a credit to many other things or communities he has sought to represent, I even saw shows in which he was struggling with down states (he suffers from bipolar disorder) as best he could but the venom that religion, I dont even mean bad religion but all religion, produces is unreal and I think despicable.

while i agree with some of your opinions, i don't think this should be an attack on a group of people and their characters just because you disagree with one person who shares a similar belief. This is textbook ad hominem fallacy and fallacy of composition and not at all suited for these kind of discussions. What if i said all Christians were dicks and angry people, based on how you responded?

I'd find it curious that you wanted to communicate with a dick and an angry person, maybe you're interested in finding out why they are angry but it wouldnt clear up why you thought they were a dick.

Anyway, I'm sick of this sort of thing being circulated as commendable in any way, let alone heroic, I think its stupid and when its finally discovered to be so by the people who are liable too it'll only result in yet another swing of the pendulum to the opposing extreme and all the stupidity associated that that too.

 

[Matt3737]

it'll only result in yet another swing of the pendulum to the opposing extreme and all the stupidity associated that that too.

I agree with you on being disgusted by extremism on either side of any issue, but I think the problem here is that you are the one who reacted extremely.

It's pleasant that you're not doing so from either side of the issue, but let's not sully the middle ground with overzealous and pre-emptive remarks. Wait until such remarks are justified.

 

[Skarekrow]

Yeah, its disappointing you feel that way to be honest, there are alternative narratives to the one you present here.

Jung wrote a really good book on the book of Job. For one.

Dante's Inferno is no more scriptural than Milton's Paradise Lost, they are literary, I think they are on a par with biblical texts in their power but that's not canon in any faith, I'm pretty sure of it, properly understood Dante's depiction of hell is very much one of just desserts and natural consequences too, so its a poor example of what you mean to convey.

We are not entirely seperate from God as it is, although it is not the same as being in the divine presence, we have the image of God in the form of other people, for instance.

I dont know what's unjust about life, its a gift from God, its only made awful by people being human, all too human, and at the end of it all people are reunited with God too if they want. Love doesnt compell and its the lesson to be taken from life and death and God if people want to so see it.

It’s all once again, the winner writing history Lark.
The Gnostics were murdered out and so were the more esoteric and deeply spiritual teachings of Jesus.
We have a very incomplete picture of it all.

 

[INFJok]

LOOKS LIKE WE'RE ALL SCREWED!
WE MORTALS DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING AND PROBABLY NEVER WILL.

Maybe it is us that is the problem because we refuse to accept it.
Who knows? Maybe it's all a test to see where our faith really is at!

 

[Lark]

It’s all once again, the winner writing history Lark.
The Gnostics were murdered out and so were the more esoteric and deeply spiritual teachings of Jesus.
We have a very incomplete picture of it all.

That's a very simplistic reading of history.

It is the victor that writes history but who attempts to rewrite it and why are they automatically considered legitimate?

I've read gnostic writings and to be honest describing them as esoteric is generous, a lot of them are simply confused and confusing, with much, much too much of an air of the mystery schools about them who would engage in conjuring tricks and cultish practices to recruit supporters and act all too much like one of Muirs mystical Wizard of Oz style secret world rulers but on a much more human scale.

There no doubt is an incomplete picture but that's no reason to automatically doubt the official and orthodox picture of history, a lot of the revisionist and "flipped" narratives interested me when I was younger, like in my late teens, with all the revisioning of things like Wizard of Oz as Wicked and the like but eventually it got dull and just seemed like rank contraryism which had no sense of right, wrong, up or down.

 

[BrokenDaniel]

That's a very simplistic reading of history.

It is the victor that writes history but who attempts to rewrite it and why are they automatically considered legitimate?

I've read gnostic writings and to be honest describing them as esoteric is generous, a lot of them are simply confused and confusing, with much, much too much of an air of the mystery schools about them who would engage in conjuring tricks and cultish practices to recruit supporters and act all too much like one of Muirs mystical Wizard of Oz style secret world rulers but on a much more human scale.

There no doubt is an incomplete picture but that's no reason to automatically doubt the official and orthodox picture of history, a lot of the revisionist and "flipped" narratives interested me when I was younger, like in my late teens, with all the revisioning of things like Wizard of Oz as Wicked and the like but eventually it got dull and just seemed like rank contraryism which had no sense of right, wrong, up or down.

There's no up and down, and right or wrong, that's just a made-up heriarchy, it's more like a house of cards when it comes to christian mindset, imo, think about Heraclitus and his famous saying "the way up is also the way down", i'm not paraphrasing him exactly anyway. Christian hell always seemed like a guilt-ridden psychological bullshit to me anyway, do you want to take responsibility for your acts? Then take it, forgiveness does not come from the ones who follow tradition and having a stick on your ass.

Also, Gnosticism is a pretty straight discipline, there's not too much "hocus pocus" about it, you either accept it or you don't, but that doesn't take away the depth of this tradition.

 

[Skarekrow]

That's a very simplistic reading of history.

It is the victor that writes history but who attempts to rewrite it and why are they automatically considered legitimate?

I've read gnostic writings and to be honest describing them as esoteric is generous, a lot of them are simply confused and confusing, with much, much too much of an air of the mystery schools about them who would engage in conjuring tricks and cultish practices to recruit supporters and act all too much like one of Muirs mystical Wizard of Oz style secret world rulers but on a much more human scale.

There no doubt is an incomplete picture but that's no reason to automatically doubt the official and orthodox picture of history, a lot of the revisionist and "flipped" narratives interested me when I was younger, like in my late teens, with all the revisioning of things like Wizard of Oz as Wicked and the like but eventually it got dull and just seemed like rank contraryism which had no sense of right, wrong, up or down.

It doesn’t mean that the history cases to exist (although in some cases, history has indeed been wiped out)…it’s like here in the US…during WWII we forcibly interned Japanese-Americans in what were basically “concentration camps” (and yes people were murdered there too) places like Manzanar.
I never learned this in history class, hmmm, I wonder why, maybe because all the patriotic bullshit they shove down your throat from day one is just that - bullshit.
No country is greater than another by the grace of any God.
THe esoteric writings of the the Gnostics were quite simple - Heaven is inside you..and me…and everyone else…it isn’t something to be earned, it so something to be discovered within.

 

[Eventhorizon]

It doesn’t mean that the history cases to exist (although in some cases, history has indeed been wiped out)…it’s like here in the US…during WWII we forcibly interned Japanese-Americans in what were basically “concentration camps” (and yes people were murdered there too) places like Manzanar.
I never learned this in history class, hmmm, I wonder why, maybe because all the patriotic bullshit they shove down your throat from day one is just that - bullshit.
No country is greater than another by the grace of any God.
THe esoteric writings of the the Gnostics were quite simple - Heaven is inside you..and me…and everyone else…it isn’t something to be earned, it so something to be discovered within.

Patriotic bs? You have a very different memory of school than I did. I graduated in 88 and what I remember though I did not realize it at the time is that they were teaching us to hate America and everything it stood for. I hear that the public school system has only got progressively worse and is essentially a liberal socialist brainwashing campaign in disguise these days.

 

[j654dgj7]

Stephen Fry is a miserable bi polar individual whose experience of life makes him an atheist and one which cant stand others not feeling his constant pain, misery and convictions of cosmic meaninglessness, pointlessness and such as a sort of badge of maturity and honour.

His points about God are hopelessly, stupidly anthropomorphic but typical of a lot of arrogant atheism.

There's no courage to behaving this way, its incredibly cliched and passe, consequently, lacking all courage, I struggle to see how it can be considered heroic. Its not likely at all that anyone expressing those sorts of opinions is going to be subject to the court of public opinion or any other sort of adversity as a consequence of expressing those views. They're likely to be heralded as some kind of genius but a legion of liberal, politically correct, unreflective and emoting driven enemies of tradition and religion, I've no idea who would want to be part of such a conformist herd of easily satisfied individuals when it comes to questions of metaphysics or philosophy or spirituality.

Atheists are the biggest bores ever, they hate imagination, they hate experience typical to humanity for the longest time span of human existence and history and I suspect ultimately they are not even that cracked up about themselves.

can confirm that being bipolar makes you want to impose your constant pain, misery and convictions of cosmic meaningless and pointlessness on others.

sadly cannot confirm that atheists have common traits like being bores, hating imagination, humanity or themselves. to me they seem like a big and super diverse group.

stephen fry is a cambridge alumni that is mostly known in europe for his brilliant 90s comedy show "a bit of fry and laurie" with hugh laurie (house!). here's a sketch i like:

[video=youtube;Tm0LnZOf_O0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm0LnZOf_O0[/video]

 

[Skarekrow]

Patriotic bs? You have a very different memory of school than I did. I graduated in 88 and what I remember though I did not realize it at the time is that they were teaching us to hate America and everything it stood for. I hear that the public school system has only got progressively worse and is essentially a liberal socialist brainwashing campaign in disguise these days.

I came from on of the most Conservative stretches of CA which is the central valley there.
Bakersfield was my home town, and it’s about as all American as you can get.
Did you learn about Manzanar in High School? Because it certainly was omitted from my history books until I went to college…and I’m really tired of the so-called “liberal agenda” that you keep mentioning. Liberal, conservative…the clowns in power right now are not on the side of the people they are supposed to be representing…they represent special interest, because it was special interest and big money that got them elected…the President, Congress, the Supreme Court have all sold us out.
The US has done a lot of really bad nasty shit around the world, but we hear of only the good things we have done instead of giving children a complete picture of who we are as a country and then letting them decide for themselves if they have patriotic ideals.
And don’t try and tell me that I am anti-US…I am not…my Father was in the Army and I was in the Coast Guard.
My point it - God doesn’t favor one county over another anymore than he favored the Patriots over the Seahawks. It always irritates me when sports players (or soldiers for that matter) thank god for helping them win the game…as if the player on the other side was less worthy. But of course God would be worried about football and not the thousands of women and children dying every day of violence, disease, and starvation.

 

[Skarekrow]

You know, sometimes I really have to wonder if we are worth saving as a whole.
How much money was just blown on the Super Bowl (and I’m not knocking football fans here, I watched it too)?
How many people could that have saved from starvation? And we all just sat on our couches.
The Koch brothers just themselves…not counting their thousands of supporters, are gearing up to spend $889 Million to tear down labor laws, environmental regulations, to elect those who will be their lackeys. And honestly, a regular guy or gal would almost want to give up before starting if they were against them.

I could care less what Stephen Fry says…it’s his opinion, he’s entitled to it even if he is a dick.
I would say that he has beaten those to a certain extent that get all in a tizzy about his comments.

 

[j654dgj7]

You know, sometimes I really have to wonder if we are worth saving as a whole.
How much money was just blown on the Super Bowl (and I’m not knocking football fans here, I watched it too)?
How many people could that have saved from starvation? And we all just sat on our couches.
The Koch brothers just themselves…not counting their thousands of supporters, are gearing up to spend $889 Million to tear down labor laws, environmental regulations, to elect those who will be their lackeys. And honestly, a regular guy or gal would almost want to give up before starting if they were against them.

I could care less what Stephen Fry says…it’s his opinion, he’s entitled to it even if he is a dick.
I would say that he has beaten those to a certain extent that get all in a tizzy about his comments.

politically, stephen fry would agree with everything you just said. he's left-wing. also, his auto-biographies are some of the most informed, funny, thought-provoking and interesting books that i've ever read. he's done everything basically. his active stance against organized religion is just one of the things that he's involved in.

 

[Skarekrow]

politically, stephen fry would agree with everything you just said. he's left-wing. also, his auto-biographies are some of the most informed, funny, thought-provoking and interesting books that i've ever read. he's done everything basically. his active stance against organized religion is just one of the things that he's involved in.

I have seen very limited things with him in it.
I find it quite interesting ( and a little bit funny I’ll admit) that he seems to get people’s panties in a bunch…which is even funnier because it seems that was his intention.

 

[Eventhorizon]

I came from on of the most Conservative stretches of CA which is the central valley there.
Bakersfield was my home town, and it’s about as all American as you can get.
Did you learn about Manzanar in High School? Because it certainly was omitted from my history books until I went to college…and I’m really tired of the so-called “liberal agenda” that you keep mentioning. Liberal, conservative…the clowns in power right now are not on the side of the people they are supposed to be representing…they represent special interest, because it was special interest and big money that got them elected…the President, Congress, the Supreme Court have all sold us out.
The US has done a lot of really bad nasty shit around the world, but we hear of only the good things we have done instead of giving children a complete picture of who we are as a country and then letting them decide for themselves if they have patriotic ideals.
And don’t try and tell me that I am anti-US…I am not…my Father was in the Army and I was in the Coast Guard.
My point it - God doesn’t favor one county over another anymore than he favored the Patriots over the Seahawks. It always irritates me when sports players (or soldiers for that matter) thank god for helping them win the game…as if the player on the other side was less worthy. But of course God would be worried about football and not the thousands of women and children dying every day of violence, disease, and starvation.

I agree with your assessment of our government employees. Meaning the politicians screwing us over. They screw us over from both sides. When I say liberal I mean those people that want to move away from capitalism toward all out socialism. I dont like socialism because as person part of a government like that, free will is essential null and void. You are told where you will work, how much you will be paid... you are told what medical services you can receive and who you can get them from etc... the list goes on and on. Plus the liberal agenda of today is to make sure people know how bad America is. Like anything there is good and bad to be had. My problem with liberals is not their ideals. I like the ideals they have to great extent, they just are not realistic in todays world. Throwing money at something and saying I want it does not get you that thing. You still have to figure out how to make it actually work. Something they never include in their tantrums. Pelosi " you have to read the bill to figure out whats in it....."
I know several teachers and I am told the school system is in fact full of this type of agenda. Its not that they are against it either.
I support Republicans in terms of their fiscal agenda, smaller government ideals etc... I do not support them in all things. As I have its always been about the lesser of two evils for me. Democrats do not breathe air from this world. They do not in other words live in reality.

Anyway I support cleaning up our government. Give me a plan and if its valid I might even follow you.