The case for Zionism

GracieRuth

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I'm reading the latest news reports of antisemitism in New Jersey. I'm referring to the attempted murder of the rabbi, his family, and others living at Temple Beth El in Rutherford, which is the FORTH antesemitic incident within a month in this particular county. I am reflecting that no other nation on the earth has been as welcoming to Jews as the USA. YET STILL, we have problems with these sort of things even here in America.

We learned the hard way, during the Holocaust, that our best efforts at being citizens in modern nations are NOT ENOUGH to protect us from attempts to eliminate us and drive us away.

And so we inevitably reach the conclusion: return to our homeland, Israel, and put up fences to protect ourselves.

That's basically Zionism in a nutshell: that Jews have a right to survive.

[video=youtube;1EsaS5ngEBw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EsaS5ngEBw[/video]
 
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are you jewish miss? you know i once met a jew from a sect that say that jews shouldnt return to Isreal for reason explaiden in the Torah. After he told me that i investigated and i encountered a group of jews that defend this position and are anti zionist. Its a really interesting debate and i will like to know what its your point of view.
religious intolerance sucks by the way.
 
America only likes the funny Jews. Every other Jew is going to get lumped in with the 1% bankers. Irrational but true.

We learned the hard way, during the Holocaust, that our best efforts at being citizens in modern nations are NOT ENOUGH to protect us from attempts to eliminate us and drive us away.

I'm not sure it works for anyone. Trying to maintain the status of membership in another nation while being a citizen of another is usually looked at as at least mildly treasonous. Be American or be Jewish/ Mexican/ African. Trying to be both just doesnt jive well. Fitting in is the name of the game. I find it difficult to express my thoughts on this, I hope you get the gist of it.
 
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Duplicate post. How does this happen?
 
are you jewish miss? you know i once met a jew from a sect that say that jews shouldnt return to Isreal for reason explaiden in the Torah. After he told me that i investigated and i encountered a group of jews that defend this position and are anti zionist. Its a really interesting debate and i will like to know what its your point of view.
religious intolerance sucks by the way.

There is a small minority of ultra orthodox Jews who don't recognize the state of Israel since it was not established by the Messiah. However, even THEY will tell you that Torah demands that Jews return to the Land. Every Passover we pray, "Next year in Jerusalem." IOW, today virtually all Jews are Zionists, and even those who are not still advocate returning to the Land. I hope that clears things up for you.

Since in my OP I refer to "we", it is pretty safe for you to conclude I am a Jew. :D Oh, and thanks for the support. Yeah, none of us are free until all of us are free.
 
I was raised in a family that is very pro-Zionist, but to be honest the more I look into it the less it seems like a Jewish state really helps keep Jews safe. A lot of what it does (even when well justified) provides an easy target for propaganda that helps turn many against Jews in general. There were plenty of Jews living peacefully in the region before the establishment of Israel, and in other middle eastern countries the governments have cracked down on and even deported Jews in response to their relations with Israel. The organization of the Israeli government also leaves a great deal to be desired.



I want for the land of Israel (at least until the Messiah comes/returns) the same things I want for the United States:
  • a liberal democracy with a strictly interpreted, written constitution to protect individual liberties and restrict the power of the state
  • freedom of religion (obviously not taken so far as to allow things like human sacrifice), freedom of speech, etc
  • no birthright citizenship, based on jus sanguinis, jus soli, or anything else
  • citizenship purely optional and requiring a written contract as well as testing to ensure informed consent
  • free (but never mandatory) education for anyone, regardless of age, at least up to the level required for citizenship
  • no limitations on immigration except for health screenings and criminal(/terrorist/spy) background checks, no requirements for visas, residency permits, or work permits. (Note that by this point the issue of either a Jewish or Palestinian Right of Return is completely irrelevant.)
  • a tax system focused on mitigating externalities, including the monopolization of land, and citizen dividends to compensate those harmed by them. (The Geoist tax/dividend system is not perfect but follows the same basic principles behind the Gleaners Rights and Tithes of the Law of Moses while being better suited to the modern economy.)
  • a government where party affiliation is completely irrelevant, where voters select individual candidates through Range Voting and/or Reweighted Range Voting. (Range Voting is where voters give an independent score to every candidate rather than full support to the lesser of two evils. These scores are added up to find a winner with the most overall support, even if he is nobody's top pick. It strongly favors consensus builders over polarizing demagogues, as well as letting upstart parties better compete against entrenched coalitions. In Israel it would be especially helpful to get rid of political factions based on religion and ethnicity. Reweighted Range Voting is its Proportional Representation variant, which unlike most PR systems has no dependence on party affiliation. From the voter's perspective it is just like normal Range Voting, and the first winner is selected the same way. After that the ballots are given weights so that those which favored the previous winner are worth less, and then they are counted again. This continues until all seats in a multimember district are filled. To help the voters make their decisions without requiring exceptional memories and dependence on expensive advertizing, I would also want the ballots to include an essay by each candidate describing his or her platform and qualifications. It might be a good idea for these to be submitted accompanied by an affidavit, so that any lies in them become criminal perjury.)
  • National initiatives capable of repealing laws, recalling elected officials, and firing appointed officials
 
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I've posted on another thread a list of organisations set up to manage the image of jews. Why are there so many? There are so many because jews have an image problem!

I think this image problem comes from two things:

1. the expansionist policy of Israel which many people around the world see as criminal including the geneva convention
2. the role some jews play within society, which i'll discuss below

Jews have for millenia been involved in money lending. Skip forward to today and you have prominant jews running the federal reserve and the central banking system which has grown up in the west.

The internet is awash with conspiracy theories which aren't without some historical foundations. Everyone now knows the role jewish faimiles such as the Rothschilds and Rockefellers have played in banking, international relations and zionism.

The Rothschilds paid for the knesset high court building in Israel and have a boulevard named after them in Tel Aviv. The Rockefellers paid for the land the UN building was built on in New York:

'For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents such as my encounter with Castro to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure — one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.' David Rockefeller in his memoirs


Remember that most of the world disagrees with how the palestineans are being treated and now knows that the people who are driving the zionist machine are the same people who:
-control the banking system (eg Goldman Sachs) of their countries
-have also branched out into oil (eg Rockefellers Standard Oil company)
-run Hollywood (the 'dream factory'....impacting on the subconscious of people)
-have been hugely influential in psychiatry (through groups such as the frankfurt school, which has seen the creation of a categorisation method 'DSM V' which can allow most behaviours to be seen as some sort of abheration enabling the state to incarcerate and drug anyone exhibiting these behaviours and effectively define what 'normal' is)
-massively influence the media (the documentary 'peace, propaganda and the promised land' discusses the effect certain jewsih lobby groups have on the press)

The rockefellers are also behind many of the think tanks such as the council on foreign relations and the trilateral commission whilst also being a member of the bilderburg group.

When people look at the wars being fought everywhere and the banking crisis in which no bankers get held accountable but the public get saddled with the debt created by the bankers and the public know that people like the Rockefellers and Rothschilds are basically the shadow government behind everything then they begin to get a little bit suspicious

So there are all these things that are basically making people quite suspicious of jews. The same suspicions were there in world war one (when they were implicated in both zionism and socialist revolutions) and WW" when zionists were making deals with various governments to create a jewish state

The rothschilds were married into British aristocracy for example Lord Roseberry who then became Prime Minister. The Rothschilds bankrolled Britain in its war against France so the British government was in massive debt to it. The Rothschilds therefore exerted massive financial pressure on the British government and as we all know money makes the world go around. The Rothschilds also had banking houses throughout Europe and bankrolled all the governments!)

The Rothschilds backed their candidate Benjamin Disraeli to be the Prime minister of Britain which meant that despite the jewish population of Britain being comparitively tiny and women making up half of the population, Britian had a jewish leader before it had a female leader (which it wasn't to have until Margaret Thatcher a century later!)

Banking families such as the Rothschilds have been accused of financing both sides in many European wars getting extremely rich in the process. Even today they are photgraphed in the press with British politicians who have gone to visit them, no doubt to be told what to do!

mandy-holiday-415x620.webp

Nice T-shirt there Peter! I believe that's the vitruvian man on the front which in esoteric circles signifies the six pointed star: star of david (solomons seal) which is depicted on the flag of Israel. Scottish MP Tam Dalyell commented at the time of the second gulf war that Tony Blair was listening to a cabal of jewish advisors. He meant Lord Levy (later implicated in the 'cash for honours' scandal), Peter Mandelsson (whose father was jewish) and Jack Straw (foreign secretary whose grandfather was jewish). The new leader of the labour party is Ed Miliband (who is jewish) whose brother David is the foreign secretary.

The logo for the London Olympics upset the Iranians because it basically says 'zion':

ZIONLOGO.webp


The people who control the money supply of a country effectively control the country itself which lead Meyer Amschel Rothschild to say: 'Give me control of a nations money supply, and I care not who makes it’s laws'

Most jews are not however involved in all these intrigues and are just making their way in the world the same as everyone else so it is unfair to scapegoat jews in general. However this is often what happens when people get exasperated with the actions of certain powerful jews. For example many Israeli citizens protested last year against rising costs in Israel as they were also affected by the banking 'crisis'.

The point i'm making is that behind many world events are money men and many of these money men are jews or work for jews which lead to US industrialist Henry Ford writing a book called the 'International Jew' and to many people talking of a 'jewish conspiracy'

When the muslim world sees the US fund Israel $6 billion a year in military aid and sees it invade and occupy many muslim countries or foment trouble in muslim countires it makes many of them begin to believe in something approaching a jewish conspiracy

As i've said most jews are not involved in these actions so i want to avoid using that term myself. I don't blame jews for the worlds problems, i blame individuals. I also believe that many jews have played a part in improving the world and i've mentioned in a another thread that Noam Chomsky, a jew, is one of my heroes.

So whats the solution to all this?

My opinion is that in order to make jews safer, jews themselves need to campaign to end the conflict in the middle east. They should campaign to do this not by bombing their neighbours out of existence but by enabling the Palestineans to have their own homeland and by building diplomatic bridges with their musilm neighbours.

Within the US and UK jews need to campaign alongside their countrymen/women to build a fairer society and to tackle the grip that bankers have over the levers of power.

Jews need to distance themselves from the aggressive actions of the US/Israel governments and from the enslaving actions of the bankers

If they don't do this they run a real risk of being scapegoated

That's just my opinion and I think a pretty objective one.
 
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@GracieRuth correct. The way to stand up to bullies is usually by having the strength to sock em' back. On the scale of genocide that means having an army. Armies historically lead to countries - Sic: Prussia -> Germany, Sardinia Piedmont -> Italy, etc.
 
I'm going to state a very, very unpopular belief here - I'm not for, but not outrageously against the formation of Israel.

I see it as another cheap shot the West took at the Muslim population in the Middle East. The first occurred in the 1000's when the Catholic Church, which ran Europe, promoted and launched crusades to the "holy land". It pretty much continues to this day.

When Jews were ousted from their homes during WWII and became more or less a migrant population in the millions, you could argue for the formation of a country they can call their own. But... why not a piece of Brazil or another lightly populated but large open space among people that felt no hostility towards them in the first place? Creating Israel in and among the Palestinians, surrounded by Islamic countries on nearly every border was the same as lighting a fuse and walking away.

I don't blame Israel for the creation of Israel, but I do blame the powers involved in creating it for intentionally lighting that fuse.

I also object to Jews considering themselves s a "race". I grew up Catholic but never called myself part of a Catholic race. I'm Buddhist but don't consider myself a Buddhist race. It's a religion - it comes and goes, it spreads and it recedes. It's a choice a person makes, not a static representation of what that person is.
 
I'm going to state a very, very unpopular belief here - I'm not for, but not outrageously against the formation of Israel.

I see it as another cheap shot the West took at the Muslim population in the Middle East. The first occurred in the 1000's when the Catholic Church, which ran Europe, promoted and launched crusades to the "holy land". It pretty much continues to this day.

When Jews were ousted from their homes during WWII and became more or less a migrant population in the millions, you could argue for the formation of a country they can call their own. But... why not a piece of Brazil or another lightly populated but large open space among people that felt no hostility towards them in the first place? Creating Israel in and among the Palestinians, surrounded by Islamic countries on nearly every border was the same as lighting a fuse and walking away.

I don't blame Israel for the creation of Israel, but I do blame the powers involved in creating it for intentionally lighting that fuse.

I also object to Jews considering themselves s a "race". I grew up Catholic but never called myself part of a Catholic race. I'm Buddhist but don't consider myself a Buddhist race. It's a religion - it comes and goes, it spreads and it recedes. It's a choice a person makes, not a static representation of what that person is.

I would agree with protecting an identity (as Jewish is not a race as Jewish people share no genetic difference with other peoples of the same geographical origin) what don't agree with is taking from and killing innocent people for the sake of a 'holy right' which simply does not exist. The argument is always its in protection, you don't use white phosphorus in defence or for that matter one of the highly armed forces on the planet against what are essentially peasants. Have your own land but don't justify war crimes for it, especially when the Jewish people have seen first hand the horror of such a thing.
 
Everybody knows

[video=youtube;GUfS8LyeUyM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUfS8LyeUyM[/video]

Money makes the world go around:

[video=youtube;I8P80A8vy9I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8P80A8vy9I[/video]
 
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I see it as another cheap shot the West took at the Muslim population in the Middle East. The first occurred in the 1000's when the Catholic Church, which ran Europe, promoted and launched crusades to the "holy land". It pretty much continues to this day.
I'm just curious if you are equally vehement in your condemnation of the Muslim Armies that took the Middle East by force, going as far north as France at one point.

When Jews were ousted from their homes during WWII
This understatement is offensive. In fact we were killed by the millions.
became more or less a migrant population
We were migrant populations before WW2 also. There have been Jews in Diaspora since the Babylonian Captivity.
But... why not a piece of Brazil or another lightly populated but large open space among people that felt no hostility towards them in the first place?
Because we have a historical connection to Israel, and no historical connection to Brazil. Asking us to all gather in Brazil is like asking the Cherokee to go live in Oklahoma. We have maintained a connection to the land for thousands of years. It simply does no good to pretend that's not so.


I also object to Jews considering themselves s a "race".
Well scientifically there is no such thing as race, so NO ONE should call themselves a race. However, it is just as mistaken to think we are simply members of a religion. Basically we B'nei Yisrael don't fit into the classic western boxes of "race" or "religion." To begin to understand us, you have to construct an entirely new box. I can try to help you with that, but I can't give you the desire.

What we are is a "People." A Kinship group. An ethnicity. A tribe. A really REALLY HUGE extended family. As in all families, there are individuals who simply leave, or who may do something so horrendous that no one in the family talks to them again. And there are adopted members. My brother has an adopted daughter, and quite frankly, we all forget that she's adopted. She's simply ONE OF US. In the same way, "Conversion" to Judaism (a really really bad translation of the word Geirus) is really a process of being adopted into the Tribe.

Remember the guy on Dances With Wolves? He was born an American. But he didn't stay American. Kicking Bird says to him, "The white man the soldiers are looking for no longer exists. Now there is only a Sioux named Dances With Wolves." In the same way, the non-Jew who completes Geirus no longer exists. There now only exists a Jew. That Jew has a new name and a new family.
 
I'm just curious if you are equally vehement in your condemnation of the Muslim Armies that took the Middle East by force, going as far north as France at one point.

I vehemently condemn any group that willingly kills another. There's a difference between that and bringing the proverbial gun to a knife fight though. Every response to Muslim expansionism since the Dark/Middle Ages has been an extreme example of overkill starting with the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition.


This understatement is offensive. In fact we were killed by the millions.

I'm sorry if it was offense, it wasn't meant to be. I still read the accounts and watch movies like Schindler's List and can't help the tears that well up in my eyes. Putting aside feelings though, the fact is, though, the events of the holocaust did leave millions of people that weren't killed, homeless.

Because we have a historical connection to Israel, and no historical connection to Brazil. Asking us to all gather in Brazil is like asking the Cherokee to go live in Oklahoma. We have maintained a connection to the land for thousands of years. It simply does no good to pretend that's not so.

So Israel needs to learn the lesson every Kindergartner goes through - learning to share. Christinas, Muslism and Jews all have some claim on the same real estate. How is it the decision of Western countries to figure out where to draw those lines?

Well scientifically there is no such thing as race, so NO ONE should call themselves a race. However, it is just as mistaken to think we are simply members of a religion. Basically we B'nei Yisrael don't fit into the classic western boxes of "race" or "religion." To begin to understand us, you have to construct an entirely new box. I can try to help you with that, but I can't give you the desire.

What we are is a "People." A Kinship group. An ethnicity. A tribe. A really REALLY HUGE extended family. As in all families, there are individuals who simply leave, or who may do something so horrendous that no one in the family talks to them again. And there are adopted members. My brother has an adopted daughter, and quite frankly, we all forget that she's adopted. She's simply ONE OF US. In the same way, "Conversion" to Judaism (a really really bad translation of the word Geirus) is really a process of being adopted into the Tribe.

Remember the guy on Dances With Wolves? He was born an American. But he didn't stay American. Kicking Bird says to him, "The white man the soldiers are looking for no longer exists. Now there is only a Sioux named Dances With Wolves." In the same way, the non-Jew who completes Geirus no longer exists. There now only exists a Jew. That Jew has a new name and a new family.

A way of intentionally separating yourselves from the rest of man-kind.

I was born in Brooklyn NY. I grew up in upstate NY. I lived spitting distance from Kiryas Joe. My point is, I've lived with, around, worked with and been friends with Jews my entire life. At no point have I ever felt welcomed into their communities (or groups) though. I've always been viewed as an "outsider" to them, regardless of how friendly or welcoming I'd be to them.

Any mindset that intentionally excludes people, in my opinion, is flawed.

I am curious as to one thing, slightly not-related to Israel though. I have a friend who also knows people that go to Buddhist temples throughout the country. I noticed in reading a lot of books about meditation and teachings that many people's last names were Jewish. I thought it was odd that a lot of Jews found themselves changing to Buddhism later on and he explained something to me that I wanted to at least partially verify.

There were two reasons he said - One is that beyond the spirituality of the two different religions (who is God, what happens in the afterlife, etc) they're both built with the same values in mind. He even mentioned people who would go from one temple to the next on a Saturday - from the Jewish to the Buddhist temples.

The other reason he gave is one he didn't go into too far and I thought you might have heard or know. That at some point in a Jewish man's live, they're given an option to (as he put it) "explore".

So getting back to the topic at hand, if those two points I made do hold any weight, wouldn't that kinship you mentioned expand to include a lot of other people who aren't Jewish? At what point is it fair to say that your extended family becomes a global one? And doesn't it now become counterproductive to draw lines and establish boundaries to keep others out, who might very well view you as part of their extended family?
 
I vehemently condemn any group that willingly kills another. There's a difference between that and bringing the proverbial gun to a knife fight though. Every response to Muslim expansionism since the Dark/Middle Ages has been an extreme example of overkill starting with the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition.
I tend to go with the idea that violence should be a last resort, but if you DO go to war, you try to win. To become violent for any lesser reason is IMHO immoral. Quite frankly, if someone threatened me with a knife, and I had a gun, I wouldn't put down the gun and go get a knife. I'd just shoot them.

So Israel needs to learn the lesson every Kindergartner goes through - learning to share.
I don't see a problem here. The Muslims and Christians living in Israel are citizens with the same rights under law. We even have Palestinians in the Knesset. The territories are a thorn in our flesh that we want to get rid of. We really don't want the West Bank or Gaza -- we never annexed the land. The only thing we want is to know that our neighbors will stop trying to destroy us.



A way of intentionally separating yourselves from the rest of man-kind.
We ARE separate. It is absurd for you to ask a parent to treat their next door neighbor's kid the same way they treat their own. "Family" means we have responsibilities to one another that go way beyond "loving our neighbor as ourself." Being a part of a family doesn't mean we aren't human beings, but is indicative that we ARE human beings.

This is the way the rabbis teach it, that a strong core of love creates more love to share.
First love yourself. If you don't love yourself, what love do you have to share?
Second, love your immediate family.
Third, love your extended family / People / Community.
Fourth, love all of humanity
Fifth, love the Earth.

While this may seem counter-intuitive to some, it DOES WORK, as evidenced by the fact that Jews give more money to charities than any other group, and that we chose fields of study where we can contribute to the betterment of the world.

I am curious as to one thing, slightly not-related to Israel though. I have a friend who also knows people that go to Buddhist temples throughout the country. I noticed in reading a lot of books about meditation and teachings that many people's last names were Jewish. I thought it was odd that a lot of Jews found themselves changing to Buddhism later on and he explained something to me that I wanted to at least partially verify.

There were two reasons he said - One is that beyond the spirituality of the two different religions (who is God, what happens in the afterlife, etc) they're both built with the same values in mind. He even mentioned people who would go from one temple to the next on a Saturday - from the Jewish to the Buddhist temples.

The other reason he gave is one he didn't go into too far and I thought you might have heard or know. That at some point in a Jewish man's live, they're given an option to (as he put it) "explore".
Yes, this is so common we even have a name for them: Bu-Jews. :D Because Buddhism is a philosophy rather than a religion, a Jew is free to adopt Buddhist ideas and practices, and can still say they are a Jew.

But more than that, Judaism doesn't profess to have a monopoly on truth and wisdom. The sages wrote, "Let the wisdom of the world be your wisdom, but do not let the Torah of the world be your Torah." IOW, feel free to learn from non-Jews, but always remember that you are a Jew. Therefore, while a Jew that sets up an idol of Ganesha and worship it would be kicked out of the tribe, it is perfectly acceptable to read the Upanishads and glean what wisdom may be there.

But EVEN MORE than that, our culture is a culture of questioning in order to learn. The idea of simply blindly following a religious leader is SO antithetical to Judaism. The rabbis loves most the student that challenges him, because this is the student who is engaging in learning on the highest level. It is not uncommon in a Yeshiva to see two Rabbis having a heated fight over some topic, and then go out after for a nice dinner together and laugh it up. We simply don't take disagreement personally.

Finally I'll add the most misunderstood element of our culture: ACTIONS COUNT, WORDS MEAN NOTHING. We honestly could care less what someone believes. We only care that they act like a decent human being. If you want to believe the earth rests on the back of a Turtle, and this Turtle informs you how to live, and the values you learn are the same values so that you live a righteous life, MORE POWER TO YA.

"What is hateful to you, don't do to others. That is the whole Torah, all the rest is commentary. Now go study the commentary." (R. Hillel)



At any rate, I hope that helps you understand where I'm coming from better, even if at the end of the day we still disagree.
 
We ARE separate.
You ARE separate or you WANT to be separate? The only thing that separates you from the rest of the world is your faith, and many concepts of Judaism resound with other faiths and philosophies.

I tend to go with the idea that violence should be a last resort, but if you DO go to war, you try to win. To become violent for any lesser reason is IMHO immoral. Quite frankly, if someone threatened me with a knife, and I had a gun, I wouldn't put down the gun and go get a knife. I'd just shoot them.

...

"What is hateful to you, don't do to others. That is the whole Torah, all the rest is commentary. Now go study the commentary." (R. Hillel)
Seems like these two statements contradict each other...

If you start a war, you don't try to win, but you don't try to lose either. You try to end the war as peacefully as possible. That is the most moral action you can do, IMO.
 
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Not really on topic per se, but I'm surprised to see a convert to Judaism use the pronoun "we" so zealously, as though she's an actual Holocaust survivor, or at very least lost has lost ancestors to it, and was raised to honor the Jewish fate and everything related to it. You must really enjoy the strong feel of community, and camaraderie inherent in the isolationist attitude of the community.
 
I'm reading the latest news reports of antisemitism in New Jersey. I'm referring to the attempted murder of the rabbi, his family, and others living at Temple Beth El in Rutherford, which is the FORTH antesemitic incident within a month in this particular county.

This is terrible, criminal, reprehensible.

But are you saying that all Jewish people need to move to Israel?
 
In my opinion

I think the OP is doing a disservice to the cause of justice and plurality by repeatedly baiting people on this forum to express anti Jewish sentiments.

Judaism is as much an ethnicity as it is a religion, to think otherwise is just wrong. Any non Jew who has had the privilege of being close to a Jewish family knows that European, American and now Arab history of violent antisemitism is real and destructive.

that said. I look forward to the day when the OP,s threads no longer appear on this forum, she is unstable.
 
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Hi Gracie Ruth

There's no denying that the world feels pretty unstable at the minute. I think many of us are anxious as to what tomorrow will bring.

Please don't see me as an enemy because i have debated you on some of these issues. I'm not against you, i just see a different way of approaching the problem that's all.

Although events are happening pretty fast at the moment i just feel the world needs to take a deep breath, sit back and not act out of impulse.

I'm gonna cool it on some of these threads for a while. If you want to discuss any of this stuff feel free to PM me anytime

best wishes

muir
 
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