The Collective

Nixie

Nixie

Resurrected
MBTI
ENTP
One of the basic ideas that I haven't seen much discussion on (albeit I haven't really delved really deep into the archives here) has to do with the Collective Unconscious (CU) and the belief that it is reached thru dreams. Freud and Jung both wrote about dreams, the CU and archtypes within dreams.

Do you believe in the CU? I surmise it to be the electrical impulses of thought that one can tap into that carry memories and ideas whose energy pattern is understood by many people accross time and distance. I tend to believe in spririts as well beneath the same premise of enery signatures. Many theories abound about why we dream and basically revolve around the idea that dreaming involves the unconcious part of our id resolving problems/issues/processing data and such. If we agree that we have an unconcious and we have evolved from more basic creatures is it really so far fetched that we could have collective knowledge on some instinctive level and a way to access those memories?

In the Road Less Traveled there is a part where the author claims that he shared the same dream with someone else. I also have had similar experiences with my sisters. Not the same dreams but we have dreams that occur in the same place or a dream town. It isn't someplace we lived but we can describe the school and various features of the place to each other. I originally started talking with my older sister about this dream place and then the one after me also confirmed that she experienced a similar city in her dreams. I mean you could chalk it up to wishful thinking but my Native perspective/teaching tell me not to discount the spirit world and it has value, meaning, and importance in my life.
 
This is a topic that really fascinates me. I'm really prone to feeling like there is some sort of collective unconscious, although I'm not sure if I belief in the idea. From what I've learned about Jung's theories (which is little) is that there are universal structures in the human mind, which is why there are so many parallels in religions, mythology, dreams etc. even within cultures that have never had contact with the outside world. This may be spiritual, or simply the way we have evolved to be wired.

As far as dreaming is concerned, I tend to have very powerfully symbolic dreams, and sometimes I feel like I recognize people and places from dreams I have had (about a year ago I met some who I swore I already knew, and he felt the same about me, although we examined both of our lives carefully and found that they had never intersected before). This could just be paranoia though.

On the other hand, humans can be a bit of a blank slate. Up until a few centuries ago, the idea of the individual did not exist at all; which is evident through art, political/social structures and religion. In the modern era, the idea of the individual and sovereign is prominent on an almost global scale. I'm not sure if this change is evidence of a lack of collective unconscious psychological structure, or of a deviance from it (feelings of spiritual emptiness tend to be associated with individualism, modernism and industrialization)


those are my scattered thoughts on the subject; I'm interested to read other people's thoughts.
 
What are the "instincts" ? I always gave credence to the notion that Frank Herbert employed in "Dune', that of inherited memory. Neurology struggles to explain how the brain manufactures remembrances. The CU could easily reside here.
 
I heard an old saying that goes, "never act on what you dream in the night." In light of this, I would never discount our access to unconscious connections. At the same time, nor would I place too much weight on them without adequate discernment in the clear light of day. There is something wonderfully primal at work here and because of this it is hard to predict the relevance and/or level of meaning. That should not keep us from valuing these inputs if they do connect to other, more puposefully considered thoughts.
 
The Collective Unconscious is a fascinating theory, but I haven't look too much into it. I like the focus on how the collective unconscious is visible through large scale and long term patterns found in human creative expression. I love the concept of Jung researching all sorts of storytelling from human beings and finding patterns in them. I do believe that human beings have an ingrained, unconscious connection that is demonstrative through the way we pass on information through, dreams, art and storytelling.
 
When I think of The Collective, I think of communism.
 
Korg said:
Ironically, I think of Ayn Rand.
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I also think of her (;


I actually almost said "as well as a one Ayn Rand."
 
For Native Americans there is no disconnect between what is known and what is unknown. There is a strong belief in the spirit world. My beliefs tell me that there are 4 aspects of being, physical, emotional, intellectual and spiritual. Spiritual doesn't mean religion. The simplest definition I have is that it concerns your spiritual side if you act within a belief--because. In the most basic sense, your manners, how you interact with others is a relflection of spirituality. Nobody says you have to be nice and say please and thank you, it is a reflection of your spiritual self that has chosen to be a certain way. Of course it would encompass all the other stuff that one associates with spiritual such as belief in a higher power and whatnot.

That being said. Looking at this idea of the CU makes me think of it as an aspect of the spirit world as understood by Native Americans. Everyone is familiar with the Vison Quest ideology associated with Native Americans. In a way a VQ is seen as a formalized version of dreaming or ceremony. Everyday dreams are considered important if they follow the elements of being ceremony or having importance. I remember one dream where I traveled and witnessed two giants fighting with eagle feathers as one such dream. Modern man disconnects himself from his spiritual side more often than not and then you hear the comisseration about life having no meaning or wondering what the meaning is.

I believe in balance. For every force there is an equal force kinda thing. If we can understand that there is the KNOWN, then it follows that there is the UNKNOWN. The CU and the spirit world are firmly in the realm of the father or the UNKNOWN.
 
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Neuropedia said:
From what I've learned about Jung's theories (which is little) is that there are universal structures in the human mind, which is why there are so many parallels in religions, mythology, dreams etc. even within cultures that have never had contact with the outside world.
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Interesting, I've never thought about the possibility of these similarities emanating from the CU. Instead, I saw the parallels as a product of divine revelation. But why should it be one or the other? Why not both?
 
Norwich said:
................ Why not both?
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This was Jung's privately held position (or so it would seem) but in his writings, as with most psychoanalysts, attribution to the divine undermines any sembalence of scientific objectivity.
Jung wrote extensively that modern man suffers from a crisis of religion.
 
Perhaps it is best described as your basic fear of the unknown. Modern man has wrecked havoc dissecting, poking, proding in his collective attempt to learn and know and been driven mad with the idea that it is possible to know all. For me, life exists were something meets nothing. Draw a circle on a piece of paper. Within the circle is a defined space, the known. It can be seen, it has defined space. My beliefs tell me this is the providence of the mother, the giver of life. Outside the circle is space, undefined, the unknown. My beliefs tell me this is the providence of the father--you know that whole balance thing. Life is that thin black line where something meets nothing--the marriage of the known and the unknown. There are answers we will never know--perhaps we are not meant to, perhaps we are not capable of. We can pray to the great god of science but even that will never fully explain the idea of where life comes from with absolute certainty--there will always be the element of the unknown.
 
Yes.

Science has proven the Entanglement Theory where when one particle/wave interacts with another particle/wave - although separated by huge distances - when an action is taken upon one - the other instantly reacts the same way. They are entangled with each other.

If you look at us in relation to the whole Universe - we are the universe manifested in this subset. We have and are still interacting with particles and waves throughout the whole Universe. We are connected. The length of time entangled contributes to the strength of the entanglement - the shared connections. That's why I have a strong connection with my ancestors. That's why I think I have vivid dream/memories that intrude upon my life today. They have come from the shared experiences of my ancestors. Some say trauma is passed down through the ages in this way. Not only learned from parents and their parents - but the emotional chemistry also. Tuned to the DNA.

It's a fascinating theory.

As humans we have been systematically disconnected from our inherent nature through trauma over and over.

IF - we ever find our way back again to this knowledge of being connected to everything - mankind will finally be that word -a "Kind (hu)Man"

Sonyab - you should take a look at the movie "What the Bleep" extended version. It will substantiate the CU - and more.
 
I often hear Jungians using quantum mechanics to prove the underlying reality of their positions. It is a leap and often does more harm than good.

What is more germane is that quantum physics and relativity theory do not jive with each other, which indicates that there is a vast amount of knowledge about the way the universe works which is not understood.
 
Dave said:
Jung wrote extensively that modern man suffers from a crisis of religion.
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It's been years since I have read any of Jung's work. Maybe I should change that.
randomsomeone said:
Universal structures can probably be found in the human heart as well. This can influence the mind...or not.
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Could you expound on this a bit? What do you mean by universal structures? How do you define the human heart?
Sonyab said:
For me, life exists were something meets nothing. Draw a circle on a piece of paper. Within the circle is a defined space, the known. It can be seen, it has defined space. My beliefs tell me this is the providence of the mother, the giver of life. Outside the circle is space, undefined, the unknown. My beliefs tell me this is the providence of the father--you know that whole balance thing. Life is that thin black line where something meets nothing--the marriage of the known and the unknown. There are answers we will never know--perhaps we are not meant to, perhaps we are not capable of.
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I like this analogy. Where do the stories that have been handed down through the centuries fit? Are they a part of the line used to explain the unknown?
 
Norwich said:
Could you expound on this a bit? What do you mean by universal structures? How do you define the human heart?
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I was referring to an earlier post that noted the imprint of universal structures in the mind. Science is now demonstrating some of the complex interrelationships between the mind and the heart an organ. Surely these deeper universal connections extend to this level as well. Pretty amazing stuff!!
 
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