The Ethics of Strip Clubs

The damage isn't in the act itself. There is nothing wrong with nudity. The damage is in perceptions. How an individual perceives themself and how others perceive them and changing that is to do with changing the attitudes of society to a more open and free attitude.

Also it is not just an issue for the strippers but for the customers as well. A strip joint is only going to make them sexually frustrated.

My argument is that it is not a healthy outlet for the sexual energies which society generates...its all about energies and controlling them!

How is it not a healthy outlet for sexual energy? Assuming you mean sexual desires and such, It's no different than pornography. You stimulate yourself sexually with something and then pleasure yourself in the privacy of your own home... or the bathroom stall. Masturbation is a way to release built up sexual tension without a partner. For me it sometimes works better than sex, but that is mostly because sex and masturbation fill two very different needs in my mind. But, that is beside the point. I honestly don't see anything wrong with building up a little just so you can work it off later. To be honest, strip clubs help me work off frustration more than it builds up. Granted, not everyone is like me. What I am trying to say is that there are many ways to lets out sexual frustration and it's not always intercourse. Also, the buildup of frustration can make the sex more fun when you do finally get it.
 
I don't even know who came up with people taking their clothes off as unethical and unmoral. What, did God invent that in the bible? Is there some holy dresscode that suggests taking one's clothes off if it's not in privacy is somehow sinful? AND IS IT ONLY WOMEN WHO IT'S SINFUL TOWARDS?

Look ladies and gents, the naked body is natural. You're born into the world like that, plain and simple. I get so mad when they cover sculptures of naked people with those dumbass fig leaves- like what, what, having a penis and breasts is something to be ashamed of and hide from the world? We see naked babies and we're fine with that but then after a certain point you gotta cover up. Well, fuck that. I want a nudist colony, now. That'll solve your problem. If we're all nudists, no one can be strippers, then there's no ethical issue with stripping, is there?

You have to understand a bit about the structure of the system though, I don't think most people object to the nudity part of it, A purely pole dancing club is a little different than a lap dance club especially since dances get dirtier and dirtier. I think most people would agree that peeling your clothes off is a little bit different than Biting strangers ears blowing hot air on their crotches and grinding on their fingers when the bouncers aren't looking.

it is widely accepted that violent sexual acts are committed for power. Why do these men need to assert their power over women? Because for some reason they feel threatened by them, and has very little to do with sex.

I also disagree with this common notion, although I think a whole new thread could be opened on this topic. As unpopular as it is to say I do not think that ALL rape is about power and think sometimes does have to do with sex, otherwise "date rape" would never happen. The issue also gets muddied because the cause for anger towards women and the need to take power could easily spawn from not being fulfilled sexually.

I also don't understand why people don't think rape could have more than one cause depending on the individual rapist, the same way murder can. I'm pretty sure Jeffry Dolmer, Jim Jones, and Lee Harvey Oswald all had very different reasons for the murders they committed, why would rape not be similar?
 
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Nope, I think it has to do with the patriarchy feeling threatened. The violence is a reaction to the either real or conceived threat toward male power and dominance. It goes back a long way in society as well, and is hardly a new idea. Women have been the scape goat, and continue to be so. Look at the bible, who is to blame for the downfall of humanity? Eve. Adam ate the fruit as well, but Eve is to blame. Look at Mexican culture and the story of La Malinche. A teenage girl is given as a slave to Cortez, and is considered a traitor to the native people (and remains so in legends today) where as the Tlaxcala who fought with Cortez are just seen as having fought on the wrong side.

For hundreds of years men have blamed women for their problems, and it is widely accepted that violent sexual acts are committed for power. Why do these men need to assert their power over women? Because for some reason they feel threatened by them, and has very little to do with sex.


I think too there was a certain need for early Christianity to wrestle people away from the Pagan religions which tended to worship the goddess. There are many things that Christianity stole from earlier religions, even as far as to build churches on pagan sacred sites and such. I am convinced taht the devil symbology is directly related to Celtic worship of the Horned God. Another thing was that these pagan religions tended to have a deep reverence for the "mother" or "goddess" and women had roles of power.
 
So why do those people develop violent impulses towards women?

Do you think it might have something to do with societies unhealthy attitude towards sex?
That and other things... like brain chemistry and/or having been abused as children that causes a drive to brutalize others.
Prostitutes aren't anymore safe from these types of people than non-prostitutes, it has little to do with the availability of sex.
I've read studies where most of the rapists were either married or in a relationship or having plenty of consentual sex and still felt the drive to assault someone.
If you're interested, here's the book I'm referencing: [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Men-Who-Rape-Psychology-Offender/dp/0306402688"]Why Men Rape[/ame]
 
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Nope, I think it has to do with the patriarchy feeling threatened. The violence is a reaction to the either real or conceived threat toward male power and dominance. It goes back a long way in society as well, and is hardly a new idea. Women have been the scape goat, and continue to be so. Look at the bible, who is to blame for the downfall of humanity? Eve. Adam ate the fruit as well, but Eve is to blame. Look at Mexican culture and the story of La Malinche. A teenage girl is given as a slave to Cortez, and is considered a traitor to the native people (and remains so in legends today) where as the Tlaxcala who fought with Cortez are just seen as having fought on the wrong side.
For hundreds of years men have blamed women for their problems, and it is widely accepted that violent sexual acts are committed for power. Why do these men need to assert their power over women? Because for some reason they feel threatened by them, and has very little to do with sex.

That and other things... like brain chemistry and/or having been abused as children that causes a drive to brutalize others.
Prostitutes aren't anymore safe from these types of people than non-prostitutes, it has little to do with the availability of sex.
I've read studies where most of the rapists were either married or in a relationship or having plenty of consentual sex and still felt the drive to assault someone.
If you're interested, here's the book I'm referencing: Why Men Rape

There are clearly many factors involved in this dark subject.

I am not claiming that availability of sex or societies negative attitudes are the definitive reasons for rape i am claiming they are factors; it was also a very small part of my argument...i think just one line? The rest of the argument revolved around protecting women physically and emotionally and also trying to find a way to recognise male sexual drives and to provide less harmful outlets for these, rather than the money generating industries of capitalism, which are not about people's welfare but rather about profits.

I think these issues tie into larger societal issues such as power dynamics......they are symptoms of it

I think that capitalist society is a psychological meat-grinder that churns out all sorts of messed up mind states and emotional issues

The idea i talked about in my post before about the legalisation and regulation of prostitution IS NOT what i would like to see in an ideal world. I am presenting the idea as a compromise within what i see as a failing and harmful system. Education not prohibition.

I talked about the role consumerism has in creating wants in people and then providing those wants, whether those wants are healthy or not.......in capitalism, it's all about the money (which itself has no intrinsic value!)
 
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It was only the one-line I felt should be expanded upon. The rest--I agree.
 
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No worries

It's a dark door to try and look behind.

If we are discussing what changes society could implement on a large scale in order to create healthier mindsets then I would say start with the system itself: capitalism

Capitalism is about inequality, power imbalances, heirarchies, dominance etc. How can anyone expect to create a healthy society under an unhealthy system? It ain't gonna happen.

Without changing the system itself it then becomes about damage limitation...imperfect solutions...and that's all that capitalism can offer.

The thing is that the negative effects of capitalism are not generally felt by the capitalist class, so they as the weilders of political power do not have the incentive to make the necessary changes
 
You have to understand a bit about the structure of the system though, I don't think most people object to the nudity part of it, A purely pole dancing club is a little different than a lap dance club especially since dances get dirtier and dirtier. I think most people would agree that peeling your clothes off is a little bit different than Biting strangers ears blowing hot air on their crotches and grinding on their fingers when the bouncers aren't looking.
I don't even understand what the problem with 'lap dances and biting strangers ears and blowing hot air on their crotches and grinding on their fingers when the bouncers aren't looking'? It's not like you're brutally stabbing someone to death or raping them. What is your problem with people doing these things, if you don't want it done to you, don't go to a strip club, and if you don't want to do it to others, quit being a stripper.
 
Christianity has always held that sin lies in the will. If Eve really was decieved enough not to realize her acts were wrong, then they were not sin. Adam has no such excuse. He very clearly willed to do wrong with no doubts that it was wrong. His guilt is greater than hers. The book of Romans says that Sin entered from one man, Adam, and does not mention Eve much lest try to place most of the blame on her.


Blaming Eve, and women in general, seems to have started with Tertullian. He had a huge impact on the western church (mostly though his influence on other Berber fathers such as Augustine), but was always considered a fanatic and was eventually declared a heretic.


I think too there was a certain need for early Christianity to wrestle people away from the Pagan religions which tended to worship the goddess. There are many things that Christianity stole from earlier religions, even as far as to build churches on pagan sacred sites and such. I am convinced taht the devil symbology is directly related to Celtic worship of the Horned God. Another thing was that these pagan religions tended to have a deep reverence for the "mother" or "goddess" and women had roles of power.

The common depiction of the devil was explicitly made in order to discourage the worship of Pan, who was a very popular deity among the inhabitants of rural villages. (Pagan comes from the Latin Pagani, which literally means "the village people.") Pan was sometimes synchronized with the Celtic Horned One, but has a seperate origin.

In the early years of the church, demons were not depicted as giant powerful monsters, but as small annoying insects like gnats or mosquitoes. They were thought to be unable to force anyone to do anything, only to suggest thoughts to the mind through the body. They were not considered spirits like angels, but somewhat ethereal yet still physical beings who could not influence the soul directly. Even if they could take control, they could never make anyone sin, as sin is by definition and act of the will which must be freely chosen.




Although the masculine pronoun was the norm, God is not traditionally considered to have a gender. A few biblical names of God are grammatically feminine. The name often translated as "almighty" is more likely to mean "my teat." The Koran makes of point of randomly changing the gender of the pronouns used for God to emphasize he is beyond male or female.



Celtic paganism may have been relatively pro female, but Greek and Roman paganism were very misogynistic. Sure, there were a few special priesthoods for women, but in general women were considered to be incomplete men, their gender considered almost a birth defect. Christianity offered a then unprecedented level of equality to many women. In the first few centuries women formed a significant majority of Church. There are women in the new testament that where significant leaders in the church.


The church also put an end to rampant witch trials. Far more witches were executed by pagans than christians. In the middle ages the church's official position was that witchcraft was not real; only God had supernatural powers, and those claiming otherwise were just charlatans using cheap tricks. Witch trials didn't become common until the protestant revolution, and never reached the levels of antiquity.
 
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I think too there was a certain need for early Christianity to wrestle people away from the Pagan religions which tended to worship the goddess. There are many things that Christianity stole from earlier religions, even as far as to build churches on pagan sacred sites and such. I am convinced taht the devil symbology is directly related to Celtic worship of the Horned God. Another thing was that these pagan religions tended to have a deep reverence for the "mother" or "goddess" and women had roles of power.

Yeah the catholic church demonised anyone who didn't follow their narrow way of thinking which is why they crushed the gnostic cathars and witches of Europe as their fellow roman predecessors did to the druids.

Absolutely they demonised the celtic horned god and pan of course. However the story doesn't stop there and now the largest particle accelerator in the world, which is in Europe is called CERN which if you want my opinion is named after the European horned god Cernunnos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cernunnos who in turn is probably the same thing as Herne the hunter and pan of the mediterranean world.

CERN created the world wide web which is spreading the truth about the lies of the catholic church so in that sense it appears that the pagans might have the last laugh

The old religion was moon worship whereas catholicism is sun worship
 
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Yeah the catholic church demonised anyone who didn't follow their narrow way of thinking which is why they crushed the gnostic cathars and witches of Europe as their fellow roman predecessors did to the druids.

Absolutely they demonised the celtic horned god and pan of course. However the story doesn't stop there and now the largest particle accelerator in the world, which is in Europe is called CERN which if you want my opinion is named after the European horned god Cernunnos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cernunnos who in turn is probably the same thing as Herne the hunter and pan of the mediterranean world.

CERN created the world wide web which is spreading the truth about the lies of the catholic church so in that sense it appears that the pagans might have the last laugh

The old religion was moon worship whereas catholicism is sun worship

son*
 

You think christianity is about worshipping the son not the sun?

I like your avatar by the way.....i love the way they have superimposed Jesus's face over the sun

And Jesus did walk on the water:

14-sun-over-water.jpg


And when during mass catholics eat bread and drink wine and are eating and drinking the flesh of christ, sounds a bit sick doesn't it until you recognise that both wheat and grapes are produced by the sun
 
You think christianity is about worshipping the son not the sun?

I like your avatar by the way.....i love the way they have superimposed Jesus's face over the sun

And Jesus did walk on the water:

14-sun-over-water.jpg


And when during mass catholics eat bread and drink wine and are eating and drinking the flesh of christ, sounds a bit sick doesn't it until you recognise that both wheat and grapes are produced by the sun

Please tell me you have better points then these, or at least that your joking and trying to ruffle my feathers.

My avatar was made by another member of the forum, whom I don't even know if she was a Christian or not, secondly I highly doubt she had theological agenda when putting it together.

But thanks for admiring it, I'm quite fond of it.

Also what does Jesus walking on water have to do with anything,Let's not forget it was storming out when Jesus was on the water. So the sun would have been blocked out.

Did you also know that it takes earth and water to make grapes and wheat, so Christian must also worship the earth and the water rather then this all knowing God that we keep going on about.
 
Please tell me you have better points then these, or at least that your joking and trying to ruffle my feathers.

My avatar was made by another member of the forum, whom I don't even know if she was a Christian or not, secondly I highly doubt she had theological agenda when putting it together.

But thanks for admiring it, I'm quite fond of it.

Also what does Jesus walking on water have to do with anything,Let's not forget it was storming out when Jesus was on the water. So the sun would have been blocked out.

Did you also know that it takes earth and water to make grapes and wheat, so Christian must also worship the earth and the water rather then this all knowing God that we keep going on about.

Yeah these ones are light relief ;)

Sure the earth and water have been venerated as well but those things are not symbolic of the centre of all things or the giver of life and light
 
Yeah these ones are light relief ;)

Sure the earth and water have been venerated as well but those things are not symbolic of the centre of all things or the giver of life and light

I got half way through typing and it hit me that this was most likely in jest. Probably should have caught that sooner. The problem with sun worship is rather simple really, it's to alien to Christian culture and that it' simply not reflected in scripture. Seeing as the earliest Christians were mostly Jews and the Jews were obviously monotheist who would not logically be called sun worshipers either as they worshiped a God who created the sun, and sense Christianity is nothing but a divergence from Judaism(or the continuance depending on who you ask) It makes sense that Christians would follow suit as Monotheists who worship the same God.

All your really doing is applying your own symbolism on a religious group by using broad ill defined words.
 
No that's not what i'm doing.

I'm in the process of assimilating my notes on this subject into a coherent whole at the moment and will be happy to have this discussion in more depth another time.

If you want me to crack such a thick perception in one blow i will need more time than i have tonight (or rather this morning as it is here....i have to get up and go to work in 6 hours!)

take care man and don't take any of it at face value....its all allegory and symbolism because those things impact on the subconscious.

Don't read things literally is what i mean

Good night
 
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No that's not what i'm doing.

I'm in the process of assimilating my notes on this subject into a coherent whole at the moment and will be happy to have this discussion in more depth another time.

If you want me to crack such a thick perception in one blow i will need more time than i have tonight (or rather this morning as it is here....i have to get up and go to work in 6 hours!)

take care man and don't take any of it at face value....its all allegory and symbolism because those things impact on the subconscious.

Don't read things literally is what i mean

Good night

Fair enough, I understand the need to collect yourself, and the constraints of time. The discussion would likely derail the thread anyways.


Edit: Mods may we have our discussion split and moved into the P&R forum
 
Baby formula and meth don't buy themselves
moms_should_get_naked2_pm-thumb-270x270.jpg
 
@Seraphim
Seriously though....
I went to a friends 21st birthday at a strip-club...we got there and I just felt bad for the strippers the whole time.
I felt bad for certain ones because it seemed to me that they didn't really want to be there....and I felt bad for others because they had an apathetic glaze in their eyes. They had given up and just accepted that they must grind on disgusting guys....as the majority of them were...minus present company....lol.
If they really enjoyed their "work" then all the more power to them....but I saw no one there that fit that description.
 
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