The Infamous Deconversion Videos

gloomy-optimist said:
Conversion stories are often quite interesting. Likewise, there is a book that my sister read about an atheist scientist (or some other such profession, I'm not quite positive there) that tried to disprove Christianity -- and ended up becoming a Christian in the process.
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I remember the same thing was addressed in the videos. Remember where he said that all his preachers claimed that every scientist that ever attempted to disprove God became Christians themselves. But of course, then he met that highly educated linguist who proved that was far from true.
 
I'm not saying every scientist has, or even most -- I have no knowledge of the statistics there. However, I do know that it can work either way, and both really do have legitimate reasons.
 
TheLastMohican said:
What assumptions? The videos were not presented as arguments, really, so I don't know what you could be referring to.
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Well, for example...prayer. The view he articulated as his starting point (not an agrument, just a presentation if his experience to that point) represents a very basic understanding of prayer and prayer traditions. He goes from point A to D, when the subject in reality goes from A to Z (okay, maybe A to R). I really don't mean this as a criticism per se....I think he is articulating the experience of lots of folks, and he is using the right words. But anybody who knows well the dynamics of prayer would see past this presentation of "the definitive view."

Truth be told....and I have been there in my own life, trust me...if I were faced with the same "givens" in the story, I would take the same path as he....perfectly understandable. My path was different...and that junction in my life happened 30 years ago. There just seems to be a rash of people (very rightly) disillusioned with Christianity, yet the premise/background they are working off of is incomplete or very limited.

If it makes any sense, I do not disagree with the author.....in his shoes I'd have done the same, and I admire his willingness to question and find new linkages. It's his frame of reference I question...but he seems an honest seeker.
 
gloomy-optimist said:
I'm not saying every scientist has, or even most -- I have no knowledge of the statistics there. However, I do know that it can work either way, and both really do have legitimate reasons.
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Hm...its an interesting thought.

I'll have to see if I can find some examples of prominent atheists who have become Christians.
 
Satya said:
Hey, I think I found your man gloomy. A philosopher. And he is a deist, not a Christian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Flew

Interesting. Many of the founding fathers were deists.
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Hm, I'm not sure if that's the guy that she read about or not -- I'll ask her what the book was, and I'll get back to you on that.
 
I wonder if it is more difficult to move from a religious system to atheism than it would be to move from atheism to religion/faith. I would think a religious system would have more obstacles to overcome, but that is assuming atheism in general is far less structured and open to many types of manifestations.
 
randomsomeone said:
I wonder if it is more difficult to move from a religious system to atheism than it would be to move from atheism to religion/faith. I would think a religious system would have more obstacles to overcome, but that is assuming atheism in general is far less structured and open to many types of manifestations.
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I have little doubt it is harder to go from Christianity to atheism. You are going from being one of the majority to becoming one of the most hated minorities. I think that is why a lot of atheists often revert back to Christianity. I always find it hilarious when fundamentalist Christians play the persecuted Christian card. Like you could persecute over 2 billion Christians! Puhleez!
 
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I think atheism (or some sort) will become more and more common as the typical fundamentalist approach to Christianity (that is so widespread) has trouble standing up to certain kinds of scrutiny or intellectual inquiry. The system just starts to fall apart. Now.....the inquiry is good. What could happen in the process is that either one would reject Christianity altogether, or in the process of inquiry discover an entirely new construct for their faith, which does exist. The latter is how it went down for me.

I have seen thousands upon thousands of people leave my own church tradition and, while I don't think they fully grasp what they are leaving, given the information they are provided it makes a great deal of sense. I tell them so, too! In my view it is part of the time we live in and I do expect the trend to continue. Thing is, it is hard to argue against honest inquiry...one just has to be free to do this. One cannot stay in the little box and deal with the big questions of life. I myself live in the midst of a very rich religious tradition, but I had to get rid of the box a long time ago. Fortunately I found that, in my tradition, getting rid of the box was part of the deal!!
 
randomsomeone said:
I think atheism (or some sort) will become more and more common as the typical fundamentalist approach to Christianity (that is so widespread) has trouble standing up to certain kinds of scrutiny or intellectual inquiry. The system just starts to fall apart. Now.....the inquiry is good. What could happen in the process is that either one would reject Christianity altogether, or in the process of inquiry discover an entirely new construct for their faith, which does exist. The latter is how it went down for me.

I have seen thousands upon thousands of people leave my own church tradition and, while I don't think they fully grasp what they are leaving, given the information they are provided it makes a great deal of sense. I tell them so, too! In my view it is part of the time we live in and I do expect the trend to continue. Thing is, it is hard to argue against honest inquiry...one just has to be free to do this. One cannot stay in the little box and deal with the big questions of life. I myself live in the midst of a very rich religious tradition, but I had to get rid of the box a long time ago. Fortunately I found that, in my tradition, getting rid of the box was part of the deal!!
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I think you underestimate people who leave the church. I dropped Christianity from life for many reasons. But be reactionary wasn't one of them. But I do agree the trend away from the church will continue. I can only hope people will stop fighting personal growth while using religion as a crutch.

Region is not necessary. Spirituality is a great positive but much different.

My biggest argument with most Christians is that they don't understand religion is not a requirement to live your life well. And neither is god.

As for the church its always been extreme in my view. We only need look at history to see what Christianity has done because lack of sound reason. And of course the motivations of the church.

As agnostic I'm glad to see people taking their own path. Too many refuse to question traditions.
 
gloomy-optimist said:
Conversion stories are often quite interesting. Likewise, there is a book that my sister read about an atheist scientist (or some other such profession, I'm not quite positive there) that tried to disprove Christianity -- and ended up becoming a Christian in the process.
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Josh McDowell. I've read his book "Evidence That Demands a Verdict." I found it to be extremely unconvincing (but I could see how it is convincing to the already converted). He never really makes an argument for God's existence, but instead goes on at length about archeological evidence for biblic-historic events (which nontheists don't generally dispute). IIRC (it has been a while since I read it), his basic argument is "the bible says God exists, the bible is right about all these other things, so it must be right about the God thing." This is an easily spotted logical fallacy.
 
Well, this is all a very rich subject with many, many nuances...one that will continue to be played out for the remainder of my lifetime.

But just to go out a bit further on a limb....there are many aspects within religion that get tragically little, if any, attention these days. In some religious systems is would seem these have been exorcized altogether. They relate to deep spirituality. The barrier is that religion does have a role to play in this...yet at the same time the external religious systems seem off-putting, and/or irrelevant, and/or an actual obstacle. A very odd situation. I would agrue that "cartoon-christianity" has supplanted a more authentic expression...even within religious culture!!!

In light of this dilemma, I believe this age will, and is, suffering the same myopia that has led to the great religious debacles of earier ages which we can call out in hindsight with perfect clarity (although we do tend to overlook the more subtle ones). There will be consequences to this...some will not be reversed. In the name of independent thought (which can be a good thing, but beware the ego), we could wind up trading encounters with deeper truth for something far more anemic. There is risk here.

On the other hand, perhaps this is all a necessary evolution...a swing of the pendulum. Perhaps the anomalaic disfunctions found in contemporary religion will deconstruct and find new equillibrium based on its most sound traditions. One day I hope the place of our best reasoning can coexist with our deepest spiritual wisdom and these can breathe together like two lungs. We do not live in that time, I'm afraid.

For now it will suffice to hope that individual people find their highest good, whether within religion or without. Perhaps this central quest alone can provide us at least some commonality as we move forward.
 
Satya said:
I have little doubt it is harder to go from Christianity to atheism. You are going from being one of the majority to becoming one of the most hated minorities.
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When we say one direction is "harder" than the other, it is important to distinguish between cognition and emotion. I found Christianity difficult to reconcile with reason, so I became an atheist. Returning to actual belief seems impossible to me at this point. Cultural pressures are a different matter.
 
Duty said:
Josh McDowell. I've read his book "Evidence That Demands a Verdict." I found it to be extremely unconvincing (but I could see how it is convincing to the already converted). He never really makes an argument for God's existence, but instead goes on at length about archeological evidence for biblic-historic events (which nontheists don't generally dispute). IIRC (it has been a while since I read it), his basic argument is "the bible says God exists, the bible is right about all these other things, so it must be right about the God thing." This is an easily spotted logical fallacy.
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No, that's not it either.
 
TheLastMohican said:
I found Christianity difficult to reconcile with reason, so I became an atheist.
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I can sure see how this would happen. I found myself in the odd situation that I would I have to completely ignore way too much critical information to, via reason, opt out of Christianity. Weird, huh? I admit I'm not in the category of the typical evengelical or fundamentalist...it's my long-term haunts in critical historical and literature studies, and in the classical mystic traditions that I cannot ignore.
 
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