The INFJ/4 wing combination

[Ragnarkisten]

When I first discovered myers briggs typology, I was astonished at how precisely it described me as a person. I got to know more about other self-professed INFJs, and then a new astonishment emerged. How different they were from me. Obviously we had similar traits, but that was also expected. But there were differences that I didn't quite expect.

For instance the idea of poetic justice has always been a strong fixation within me. If you think of Amalie, (the movie) she is also very concerned about the welfare of the down-trodden. Basically the whole film was close to a euphoric experience for me, since it was like a description of a woman version of me. How the hell could people know what I was like? I remember thinking to myself. Are there really people out there who are like me? The isolation, sensitivity, and loneliness I could really relate to.

Also, the empathy for people who are different, (like the guy who sold vegetables) and the despise for people who make fun of others. But alas, I remember talking to another INFJ about why people often were attracted to scumbags. I remember her answer, because everybody can be scumbags once and a while, she said. She might be right in one sense, but at the same time I strongly disagree. Some people are just plain dirt, and they often seem to be very popular.

Anyway, what I would really like to know is other people with the INFJ, four wing combination, (3 or 5) Do they think, feel the same as me, that is, more similar to me? It would be interesting to know how they deal with solitude, social misfit feelings, inferiority, feeling special, suspiciousness, introspection, being disliked, fighting for a cause, and so on and so forth... INFJs often seem to be quite popular I imagine, not like me at all...

 

[endersgone]

INFJs often seem to be quite popular I imagine, not like me at all...

INFJ's are often popular? I can't speak for all of us, but I find that pretty unlikely.

 

[Ragnarkisten]

"All kinds of people are drawn towards the INFJ. They are usually quite popular, although they may be unaware of it themselves..."

http://www.personalitypage.com/INFJ_rel.html

 

[endersgone]

"All kinds of people are drawn towards the INFJ. They are usually quite popular, although they may be unaware of it themselves..."

http://www.personalitypage.com/INFJ_rel.html

Interesting... I'm with you on the not so popular thing, but I'm pretty sure I'm a 1.

 

[anterior]

INFJs tend to be well liked, when they're not viewed as overly weird. They keep to themselves a lot. I would imagine a confident one would tend to fill positions like school captain.

 

[Untitled]

"All kinds of people are drawn towards the INFJ. They are usually quite popular, although they may be unaware of it themselves..."

http://www.personalitypage.com/INFJ_rel.html

I think if you tend to be a bit more active out in the world and come in contact with more people (I often find that most INFJs give the impression that they are quite solitary on the forum. Wether they are or only feel that way is hard to tell) they will for the most part come to like you for your sensitivity, integrity and humane nature. I think there's a slightly elusive quality but the good intent shines through. There's usually a fair amount of people who spend enough time around you to appreciate that, because it's refreshing to be around someone who's not jaded and thinks different. What people often say is they wish they'd see the world like I do. I guess I'm a post-it of some sorts... ;d "Hey guys...Remember it's just about what's within. Ignore the other stuff." they like me because I remind them it's ok to be a little bit self contained.

I think also that we can't really BE INFJs we can be roughly typed with having a cloud of attributes that's a little more this way as opposed to another way. All types are artificial. There is likeness but not similarity, not here or anywhere. I test as 4W3 enneagram and I think what 4 represents is the search for identity. Is there one? Often people who test as 4s have a similarity in that they don't know if there is one. Others seem to have one but when you look within there's a random array of attributes that seem arbitrary. It's a search for a true essence, and finding arbitrary characteristics but no essence is upsetting, at least at first. A rock seems to have an essence. A table seems to have an essence. People readily say I am this or that, but you can't because you don't know. I could say I'm a woman, but how is that definitive of me? It explains how people react to me but it doesn't explain me... ;D I think it's nice to find people who you can discuss some things with because they share similar interests or think in a way that resembles my Wu Tang style, but to what extent are we the same? There is no easy answer. But looking outside yourself for the answer isn't really going to help. You won't find any satisfying answer, I'm afraid. BUT it's nice to enjoy the company of others you feel more at ease with

I think maybe the woman who said all people do bad things at times has a point. I TRY to do good things but I often fail. I've done things that are not nice by any standard even though I've tried to avoid that. I just am not able to not do hurtful things at times. Some people are so lost to themselves they do hurtful things most of the time. Those we call bad people. I think it's easy to become bad if you're not vigilant. That's why I have a harder time judging people who let go and make a hell for themselves and those around them. They're just lost and forgotten what is sacred.

 

[grt$5vb]

I'm a 4. I go from being really popular to very isolated, and misunderstood. I find the better part of humanity disgusting, so perhaps I separate myself on purpose, but... I think it mostly has to do with feeling rejected, so I withdraw. I seem to only be popular as a party favor. My opinions, and sarcasm can be extremely unpopular. I know I'm no worse than anybody else, so I figure it's other people's misfortune if they choose to turn their nose up at me. I rarely ask for help, and let anyone feel needed, so this seemingly exacerbates the problem. People either feel magnetized to me or very disconnected. I think my independence is intimidating, not to mention my contempt for selfish, disrespectful, arrogant behavior. Mostly I notice "friends" dissipate when I start standing up for myself, and saying no to them. This usually happens under extreme duress, and I can't seem to surround myself with people who can sense when I am in emotional overload, and offer empathy. When I am depressed people just stay away from me. Good riddance, I say...

As a defense, I usually begin rapidly detaching when I get a sense someone doesn't genuinely care about me.... but I am messed up, and we don't have to be this way.

 

[Ragnarkisten]

I read some posts earlier today that made me really depressed. But I am feeling better now. I have to say purplecrayons you seem like a female version of me. What you wrote could have been written by me, it is really weird. A admit I laughed a bit. Not of you, just because of the recognition. I basically feel misunderstood. I feel that people fail to see my talents. But not all people dislike me. My nephews grandfather, he is british btw, visited my sister right before christmas. When I relax or get into that inspired mood, I tend to be quite eloquent. As opposed to usually when I stutter and become overtly abstract. He mentioned to my sister, that he was so impressed with my english, and that I seemed so intelligent. "He is really a nice guy." It's just one of those things, some people I just connect with, and some I don't. There is just no in between. Reviere, you seem a bit different from me, although I understand where you are "coming" from. I guess I am a four wing 5 then.

Purplecrayons, we are the same age, the same personality and enneagram. How do you feel about people who has a lot of "friends" on Facebook, just to show how popular they are?

 

[Untitled]

I read some posts earlier today that made me really depressed. But I am feeling better now. I have to say purplecrayons you seem like a female version of me. What you wrote could have been written by me, it is really weird. A admit I laughed a bit. Not of you, just because of the recognition. I basically feel misunderstood. I feel that people fail to see my talents. But not all people dislike me. My nephews grandfather, he is british btw, visited my sister right before christmas. When I relax or get into that inspired mood, I tend to be quite eloquent. As opposed to usually when I stutter and become overtly abstract. He mentioned to my sister, that he was so impressed with my english, and that I seemed so intelligent. "He is really a nice guy." It's just one of those things, some people I just connect with, and some I don't. There is just no in between. Reviere, you seem a bit different from me, although I understand where you are "coming" from. I guess I am a four wing 5 then.

Purplecrayons, we are the same age, the same personality and enneagram. How do you feel about people who has a lot of "friends" on Facebook, just to show how popular they are?

I used to test as 4 wing 5 back in the day before I decided to get proactive about my career and tackle some of my people and belonging issues. After that I've tested 4W3. I became more social and ambitious, less uncompromising. I realized that if I want to achieve all that I wanted to back then I'd have to accept help from people and learn to co-operate better. I'm a four. I've just had my edges smoothed by time.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to be patronizing because I don't know other people's circumstances or the rightness of their choices and views. It's so personal, but for me I used to feel very separate and different from everyone. I read and identified with Nietzsche. He was my favorite and I also felt like some misunderstood genius. I was very opinionated, broody and fiery...I don't know...very hard on everyone. I felt at times much superior to 99% of people around me and at the same time I had a massive inferiority complex. It colored everything I did and how I behaved towards people. I was envious of those who were recognized by peers, brooding and festering...Generally being very condescending.
I've been very hard to be around in so many ways and now I'm quite thankful people stuck around all those years. It's ok to be talented in this and that and have tons of personality. I just don't want to be secretly or overtly condescending anymore. Others don't need to be devalued because I want to value myself. I was always very worried I'd go unnoticed and I wouldn't get what's mine... It doesn't matter anymore. Now I just do what I do right now and try to be decent. Everyone has the same value, like it or not. If we make something up to be special and important in our heads that makes us think it's so objectively, but it's not. Everything is the same.
Back in the day I just wanted people to pat me on the head and tell me I'm super special. Other were shallow or not so authentic, not so insightful...people were just stupid cause they didn't see how I was so talented, or society was dumb for not appreciating things I thought were more meaningful...everyone was just a bunch of sheep while I had genuine character and strenght... Well turns out I was so very wrong...I was the one dependent and needy and not standing on my own two....Otherwise I would have not thought so much about being unappreciated. I would have just done what I wanted to do and be happy in the doing. Who cares if someone isn't there to appreciate me? Who cares if I'm not viewed as good or people think I'm not good. Wether they think ingenious or not so much...I'm just fed up with my own demons. I've had it with all of them. I sit at home with my woolly socks on, eat a sandwich and record a song if I feel like it. End of story. It's my need to be different and superior that can kiss my butt. Those needs are not necessary for anything worth a dime. They've just been in my way in all truth. It was never really about other people. It was all about me.

You know...It's just finding a happiness within that's not dependent on appreciation from others. It's just about health and living and producing with ease. I still have to deal with my issues in milder forms but I've definitely mellowed down. ...but yeah a four for sure. ;D

 

[grt$5vb]

Ragnarkisten... man that is a name! Okay, I have to say I never wanted to have over a hundred friends, but I currently have 177. Only because I am too polite to delete masses of people, but I think about it all the time. I have an ENFJ friend who has over a thousand fb friends, but he is in the music business, so he's always networking, and meeting people at clubs, etc. I have to say that I left facebook for a month, and only one person contacted me... An INFJ E4.

 

[grt$5vb]

I used to test as 4 wing 5 back in the day before I decided to get proactive about my career and tackle some of my people and belonging issues. After that I've tested 4W3. I became more social and ambitious, less uncompromising. I realized that if I want to achieve all that I wanted to back then I'd have to accept help from people and learn to co-operate better. I'm a four. I've just had my edges smoothed by time.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to be patronizing because I don't know other people's circumstances or the rightness of their choices and views. It's so personal, but for me I used to feel very separate and different from everyone. I read and identified with Nietzsche. He was my favorite and I also felt like some misunderstood genius. I was very opinionated, broody and fiery...I don't know...very hard on everyone. I felt at times much superior to 99% of people around me and at the same time I had a massive inferiority complex. It colored everything I did and how I behaved towards people. I was envious of those who were recognized by peers, brooding and festering...Generally being very condescending.
I've been very hard to be around in so many ways and now I'm quite thankful people stuck around all those years. It's ok to be talented in this and that and have tons of personality. I just don't want to be secretly or overtly condescending anymore. Others don't need to be devalued because I want to value myself. I was always very worried I'd go unnoticed and I wouldn't get what's mine... It doesn't matter anymore. Now I just do what I do right now and try to be decent. Everyone has the same value, like it or not. If we make something up to be special and important in our heads that makes us think it's so objectively, but it's not. Everything is the same.
Back in the day I just wanted people to pat me on the head and tell me I'm super special. Other were shallow or not so authentic, not so insightful...people were just stupid cause they didn't see how I was so talented, or society was dumb for not appreciating things I thought were more meaningful...everyone was just a bunch of sheep while I had genuine character and strenght... Well turns out I was so very wrong...I was the one dependent and needy and not standing on my own two....Otherwise I would have not thought so much about being unappreciated. I would have just done what I wanted to do and be happy in the doing. Who cares if someone isn't there to appreciate me? Who cares if I'm not viewed as good or people think I'm not good. Wether they think ingenious or not so much...I'm just fed up with my own demons. I've had it with all of them. I sit at home with my woolly socks on, eat a sandwich and record a song if I feel like it. End of story. It's my need to be different and superior that can kiss my butt. Those needs are not necessary for anything worth a dime. They've just been in my way in all truth. It was never really about other people. It was all about me.

You know...It's just finding a happiness within that's not dependent on appreciation from others. It's just about health and living and producing with ease. I still have to deal with my issues in milder forms but I've definitely mellowed down. ...but yeah a four for sure. ;D

Wow. This so describes my inner thought process of wanting my due recognition, wanting others to be put in their place, and having a snarky attitude when I don't think things are "fair" (which life isn't). I am glad you have overcome these feelings, and I hope to. I know that I need to focus on myself, and not compare my life to others, and the gifts and adoration they receive. I really want to be healthy, and I have also realized that this happiness cannot come from an external source. I feel justified right now, but I know I am too hard on others. I expect angelic behavior from humans, and it's just not going to meet my standards. I need to focus on how I react to their successes, and try not to judge them as undeserving. Who am I, God?! ;D Thank you for this post. So eloquent. So right on for me.

 

[Ragnarkisten]

I would love to answer you, because these are interesting points. But it will take a lot of effort on my behalf, and I have to think a bit more before I give a thorough answer. But to cut to the chase short and briefly, I've never been condescending towards people. That is, at least I think I am not. I try to be polite, humble and gentle, and I am well aware of my weak sides. I don't know what you mean when you say, "superior." Does that include any subject, or simply that you are entitled to special privileges others are not? When I think myself different or special, it is not necessarily in a positive way. But it is more like my position has given me perspectives that I often find many people fail to see or consider. I find myself eccentric, and I am sure many people finds me that way as well. But when I am right, I am right. I am sure people find that side of me annoying, and I am not right all of the time. But it has surprised me how often I have made correct predictions. I would care to explain, but it will take some semi-biographical rambling, and I am not up to it right now. But I will come back to you.

 

[grt$5vb]

Yeah, I feel that when I am so sure I am right it shouldn't even be questioned, lol. Some struggle with ego I have. I am correct with my predictions most often, but I have been, and will continue to be wrong... which I HATE, so I will only speak up if I am sure. Once proven wrong I will immediately apologize. It does hurt my feelings when loved ones question, and check to see if my facts are straight, but... I need to get over that. It's just hard to feel like people don't believe me when I put so much time into observation, and studies. :/

I don't want to feel like I have to prove myself anymore. I just want to know that I am enough... for MYSELF.

 

[Jill Hives]

Yeah, I feel that when I am so sure I am right it shouldn't even be questioned, lol. Some struggle with ego I have. I am correct with my predictions most often, but I have been, and will continue to be wrong... which I HATE, so I will only speak up if I am sure. Once proven wrong I will immediately apologize. It does hurt my feelings when loved ones question, and check to see if my facts are straight, but... I need to get over that. It's just hard to feel like people don't believe me when I put so much time into observation, and studies. :/

Oh, so much this. I get frustrated with myself sometimes too for having that bullheaded passion when I feel so absolutely sure in my rightness because the same thing in others can bother me SOOO much. But if I get to the point where I am feeling that way strongly, I am RARELY wrong. I am same as you though, if I find out I am in fact wrong I will be jumping to say I am sorry. And yeah, I hate it too, oh so much.

I don't like it when people I love who are close to me don't trust me either. I feel they've known me long enough and know me well enough to just TRUST me, but...if they did that all the time, then they would likely begin to bore me because I am a big fan of a free thinker. And a free thinker questions and wants to know the whys and whats of everything. So why would they not also question me and my reasonings?

I'm all too familiar with the inner mental battles in such situations...

 

[Ragnarkisten]

I currently have 648. It's "cheating" of course. It's like with your friend, network business, when I was in the music business. But the group I participated in dissolved, but I clanged on to the Facebook page because of the lurking abilities. I am so damn curious. But the point I was trying to make was that people tend to make a lot of friends because of the status. I have never found that very (i wouldn't use the word impressive, because in some ways networking are, and i am really bad at it) honorable. There are a lot of decent good people out there who struggle with loneliness. And also, for a man at least, to have had a lot of partners, or get laid. Do I worship such a man? Do I think that this man is better person? No! Some, well heck, even most of my heroes, have had extremely poor woman skills. Schubert, H.C Andersen, Tarjei Vesaas, Olav H Hauge (norwegian poets) and so on. These are guys I really admire, and they were fairly unattractive. Do I envy attractive men? Of course, I would love to be more popular among women, but I don't admire men for that reason only.

 

[grt$5vb]

YES! [MENTION=3240]Jill Hives[/MENTION] I so encourage independent thinking, and questioning the norm, and deciding for yourself... except when it comes to MY opinions, I guess! Lol...

 

[Ragnarkisten]

Btw, I am an extreme aesthetic. I can work with my surroundings to the degree of mental disease, and never be satisfied. I can become fixated with a disorderly driveway, and be extremely depressed if it's not adjusted to my liking. But then again be careless about leaving all the tools behind after I have finished. That is not so important because it is not part of my fixation. Anyone else getting depressed with aesthetic flaws?

(I am probably crazy I know)

 

[Untitled]

I would love to answer you, because these are interesting points. But it will take a lot of effort on my behalf, and I have to think a bit more before I give a thorough answer. But to cut to the chase short and briefly, I've never been condescending towards people. That is, at least I think I am not. I try to be polite, humble and gentle, and I am well aware of my weak sides. I don't know what you mean when you say, "superior." Does that include any subject, or simply that you are entitled to special privileges others are not? When I think myself different or special, it is not necessarily in a positive way. But it is more like my position has given me perspectives that I often find many people fail to see or consider. I find myself eccentric, and I am sure many people finds me that way as well. But when I am right, I am right. I am sure people find that side of me annoying, and I am not right all of the time. But it has surprised me how often I have made correct predictions. I would care to explain, but it will take some semi-biographical rambling, and I am not up to it right now. But I will come back to you.

I have always acted nice and polite for the most part. It's had to explain. It's not overt. It's like a pungent undertone in my personality. Most people would have a hard time recognizing the description of me as arrogant, but I know myself better and I know I'm arrogant. When I say superior I mean that I esteem my own view of how things ought to be above others'. If I think It's right then theirs is in effect theirs is then wrong. I think it's ok to like things the best our way but the key is that I don't think others' ways are wrong anymore, just different. They'll just result in something else. I'm often very fixated on having things just so. I'm trying to open up more as I've observed how I have difficulties with give and take, letting go and not having control over things.

Yeah, I feel that when I am so sure I am right it shouldn't even be questioned, lol. Some struggle with ego I have. I am correct with my predictions most often, but I have been, and will continue to be wrong... which I HATE, so I will only speak up if I am sure. Once proven wrong I will immediately apologize. It does hurt my feelings when loved ones question, and check to see if my facts are straight, but... I need to get over that. It's just hard to feel like people don't believe me when I put so much time into observation, and studies. :/

I don't want to feel like I have to prove myself anymore. I just want to know that I am enough... for MYSELF.

I have had this problem all my life as well of wanting some heavenly choir to descend down and sing "She was right...she was right...and she told you soooo..." Whenever things seem to actually be like I thought they were despite opposition, buuuutttt it's like I'm fixated with results and others' views again...I can say what's on my mind but I can't control wether someone will heed my advice. And obviously I'm very very wrong at times too... ;D I try to just say what's on my mind and leave it at that.

Oh, so much this. I get frustrated with myself sometimes too for having that bullheaded passion when I feel so absolutely sure in my rightness because the same thing in others can bother me SOOO much. But if I get to the point where I am feeling that way strongly, I am RARELY wrong. I am same as you though, if I find out I am in fact wrong I will be jumping to say I am sorry. And yeah, I hate it too, oh so much.

I don't like it when people I love who are close to me don't trust me either. I feel they've known me long enough and know me well enough to just TRUST me, but...if they did that all the time, then they would likely begin to bore me because I am a big fan of a free thinker. And a free thinker questions and wants to know the whys and whats of everything. So why would they not also question me and my reasonings?

I'm all too familiar with the inner mental battles in such situations...

I know right...;D Feel free to question everything EXCEPT what I say. That's gospel. Sigh. I wrestle with it myself. Old habits die hard.

 

[Ragnarkisten]

Sometimes I identify myself with the old man hanging on the wall in the dungeon in Life of Brian. "Yoooouuuu lucky Bastardssss"

 

[knight in battle]

I would really like to know is other people with the INFJ, four wing combination, (3 or 5) Do they think, feel the same as me, that is, more similar to me? It would be interesting to know how they deal with solitude, social misfit feelings, inferiority, feeling special, suspiciousness, introspection, being disliked, fighting for a cause, and so on and so forth... INFJs often seem to be quite popular I imagine, not like me at all...

I retook the Enneagram recently and realized that Type 5 wing 4 really fits me. 5w4's are often mistyped as 4's, as I was at one point.

I have thought a lot about the unfairness of isolation in the little guy. But after many years of relative isolation, I've realized two main themes:
1. True isolation is an isolation of being unknown and misunderstood. As you know, Type 5's tend not to put themselves out there in the world through actual social interaction. We observe. We collect data about people. We're like INTPs. But unlike INTPs, we don't put our "selves" out there.
2. I believe social popularity is a function of how much you want to be known or liked--how much you can handle. If this is true, then Type 5's will not tend to be popular. As a result, their lack of social popularity in real life would allow them to both understand others who are unliked, misunderstood, or socially oppressed. In fact, it is always personal experience that causes someone to empathize with those in the same condition (or assume that another person is in the same situation).

Many of the traits you mentioned (suspiciousness, inferiority, fighting for a cause, social misfit feelings, etc) seem to fall under the subject of disconnection from others. This general detachment from the dominant human experience seems characteristic for me, which is why I have recently made progress toward human connection.

I believe all the Enneagram types are disconnected from social acceptance because of their own weaknesses, and as I operate from this assumption, I am better able to feel safe in social interaction. This has also allowed me to tolerate my own desperation for social connection, because truly, even the most popular person may only be connected to others for a certain "purpose" that is related to their Enneagram type. Would you agree?