The INFJ and tertiary-Ti development

Ni brings with it a sense of knowing and perspective. Why do you need to check for soundness and logical consistency?

Ni gives long-term convictions, goals and visions. Ti keeps the idea coherent and self-consistent, without trying to change its ultimate intent or existential validity. Checks for logical structure.

Having a sense of knowing and perspective doesn't entail that you'll act on them. That's what the judging functions are for.
 
Ni gives long-term convictions, goals and visions. Ti keeps the idea coherent and self-consistent, without trying to change its ultimate intent or existential validity. Checks for logical structure.

Having a sense of knowing and perspective doesn't entail that you'll act on them. That's what the judging functions are for.

Uh huh... So what is preventing you from acting? Furthermore, if you know so much about "Ti," then why not apply what you know?
 
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Uh huh... So what is preventing you from acting?

Hmm, maybe an underdeveloped judging function?

Which, as stimulating as all this argumentative discourse has surely been, I'd rather like to return to as the main point of the thread now.
 
Hmm, maybe an underdeveloped judging function?

Which, as stimulating as all this argumentative discourse has surely been, I'd rather like to return to as the main point of the thread now.

Which is not helping you strengthen Ti? Because I thought that's what I was working on, helping you with Ti.
 
Uh huh... So what is preventing you from acting? Furthermore, if you know so much about "Ti," then why not apply what you know?

Who said I wasn't? I don't know where you got the impression that I'm somehow completely stunted or paralyzed from action, but you seem to be missing my point with this thread. I'm simply looking to compare notes with fellow INFJs--no need to read into motives or details that weren't even present to begin with.

If your intention is to help me strengthen Ti here, though, then by all means continue. *sits patiently*
 
Who said I wasn't? I don't know where you got the impression that I'm somehow completely stunted or paralyzed from action, but you seem to be missing my point with this thread. I'm simply looking to compare notes with fellow INFJs--no need to read into motives or details that weren't even present to begin with.

If your intention is to help me strengthen Ti here, though, then by all means continue. *sits patiently*

Let's start with your argument above. That is clearly a feeling judgment. Logic is being subordinated to feeling, because when you claim that I have "the impression that [you are] somehow stunted or paralyzed from action" you are leaping to conclusions that I did not make, or imply. It tripped some sort of feeling, which triggered an illogical conclusion. My original intention was genuine.

What is the point in this ^^^? I'm trying to help you distill thinking from feeling.
 
For this thread's purposes, I am speaking of "function states" as you're representing them. Not only do I find this approach useful w/r to breaking my life into phases of stress, growth etc., it also rings true for what I'm experiencing right now. Which leads me to--

It might not have anything to do with a focused development of the tertiary initially, and in my case it didn't. My experiences led me to a point (now) where I see firsthand what I've been doing: coming to grips with my underdeveloped tertiary because I've felt I need to. Because the present circumstance requires it, because planning for the future in my present context pretty much requires a tertiary strengthening.

It is a symptom of immense stress or a challenged mental state in this case, because I'm finally being pushed to exert the less-consciously differentiated parts of my psyche to do better now and over the long-run. Most would call this an Ni-Ti loop--I'm not suggesting that Ti's overridden Ni, but rather that it's caused me to withdraw from use of Fe because it's been eating up more of my attention. We do diverge here if you think Ti can't possibly "jump to the auxiliary spot" in the sense of it experiencing more growth relative to Fe during times of stress, novelty, or hardship, which by definition would require use of a function or resources we're generally less comfortable with.

When Fe's not given the results you want, it'd be borderline insanity to keep repeating the same approach in the same circumstance it's already shown to've failed time and time again. This is exactly what's happened for me, and it's exactly why I do happen to think Ti is, by appearances anyway, closer to that auxiliary spot right now as far as where my conscious energies are being demanded more.

Yeah, you and I have a completely different approach to how the functions work together. My immediate question to you is, if everyone's in different phases of developing their non-dominant functions and we're only using one function state at a time, how do you approach the business of typing someone? How do you know you've typed yourself right? It seems like there are suddenly more than just 16 type combinations to juggle. How does a INFJ in the middle of developing their tertiary Ti differentiate from a run-of-the-mill INTP? Or an ISTJ with the same tertiary dilemma?

Also, what do you mean by "Fe not giving you the results you want." What kind of circumstances do you mean? Give me an example.

I personally have some misgivings about dominant-tertiary loops being something that is commonplace or necessary to the development of one function over another. It strikes me as more abnormal rather than typical psychological development. I personally think that what you're describing here sounds more like a good ol' expression of the inferior.

What happens when the processes already conscious and familiar to you (Ni-Fe-Ti-Se, by your count) fail? If Ti-Se are still to be considered conscious and familiar, what do we do when a circumstance requires resources that aren't quite so conscious or familiar? Where do we turn?

But see, it's not about the individual processes themselves, its the order they're used in. If INFJ cannot solve it's only problems, it heeds the call of its anima/animus and begins to behave as an unhealthy ESTP. ESTP is as opposite to INFJ as you can get. Barring some serious mental illness or experimentation with heavy drugs, I don't know how complex of a problem you'd have to warrant all your functions to change to their mirror ENFP functions, going from Ni -> Ne, Fe -> Fi Ti -> Te and Se--> Si. To me, that doesn't make any sense. Introverted intuition is a back left brain process, whereas extroverted intuition is a front right brain process. That's a complete 180. And having the entire function order flip over like that just strikes me as too "neat." You'd be a completely different person cognitively and very few people suffer such shocking trauma that they'd react to a situation by creating an alter.

Because raw data's nothing without interpretation? Ti provides an interpretational style that differs in critical, indeed, rival ways from Fe's. It provides logical structure and tests/checks for objective, impersonal criteria, with special attention to technical consistency rather than anthropocentric harmony, the latter being Fe's department.

I don't disagree that Ti 's interpretational style is rival to Fe, but they can and do work together as a function pair. F is holistic, T is linear. As long as one is introverted and the other is extroverted, they synthesize their findings. This is why I'm so confused by your Ni+Ti suggestion. I'm still wondering what on earth Ti would be able to productively do with Ni's observations beyond looping back on itself. Ni and Ti are both introverted functions which rely on a specified and localized conceptual context. The combination of the two just spells a continuous tumble down the rabbit hole. Perhaps an example of what the Ni+Ti process would look like and its conclusions would help me understand what you're getting at because the way I understand it, it's not all a process I would want to cultivate to rely on exclusively (as you suggested in your OP). If you're unhappy with the results of Ni+Fe, I can't imagine what kind of myopic, analysis-paralysis you'd encounter with Ni+Ti.

My other question regarding your take on theory is how you imagine a tertiary Ti learn to integrate with and compliment an extroverted auxiliary once the 'tertiary phase' was over. I always understood that the whole purpose of function development was teaching all the functions to work together and compliment their findings. If tertiary Ti develops by only synthesizing Ni findings (assuming it can do that without going nuts from second-guessing itself), how would it performed with information taken from a more global context?

It's actually unclear (in Psychological Types, anyway) whether Jung actually intended for this interpretation. A lot of Jung scholars are indeed of the opinion that, while he never outright says which I/E attitude the auxiliary is supposed to have (merely that it has to be judging if the dom. function is perception and vice versa), he might've even intended for pairings like Ni-Ti-Fe-Se to be the case instead of the contemporary Ni-Fe-Ti-Se model. At the very least, it's very difficult to extrapolate from his work that he truly believed the INFJ must be Ni-Fe; the least presumptuous interpretation would simply be that Jung viewed INFJs to be Ni-Jx, where x could well be either e or i.

Well, assuming that we do indeed understand what he means by I/E attitudes and how inferior and dominant functions work together and how all those are use to interpret the matrix of our reality and how we get feedback, then the no, the like-oriented pairs would not make sense

I'm finding this to be a very interesting discussion!

EDITED FOR CLARITY :)
 
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[MENTION=1360]TheDaringHatTrick[/MENTION]--Logic homework (lol) calls at the moment, so I'll probably get to your post tomorrow. I am enjoying this discussion too, though, so rest assured that I will take the time to respond as clearly and in-depth as I can manage. Lots of good questions to address--might even need Ti for 'em. :D

(My edits are for clarity, too. Just to clarify. :tongue1: )

Let's start with your argument above. That is clearly a feeling judgment. Logic is being subordinated to feeling, because when you claim that I have "the impression that [you are] somehow stunted or paralyzed from action" you are leaping to conclusions that I did not make, or imply. It tripped some sort of feeling, which triggered an illogical conclusion. My original intention was genuine.

What is the point in this ^^^? I'm trying to help you distill thinking from feeling.

Okay, granted. I suppose I did get a little huffy there.

What I meant to get at was, that I believe Ti to be necessary w/r to my ultimate goals (being a psychologist, etc.). I realize too, that Fe won't necessarily always be the answer, as it seemed not to have been here.
 
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Lol I knew you were a uniquely Thinking person [MENTION=5437]Paladin-X[/MENTION] but I thought you must've had a bad day or you were just a jerk by nature. haha I knew something else was going on but nice little lesson there. Very clever. How does Ti function besides finding holes in and the credibility of someone's/one's own thinking? Because I believe that's just Thinking in general.
 
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These are phases of development. They say nothing about what's going on the cognitive level or how the functions interact with or compliment one another. I do not see how this directly contradicts anything I said.

Mind you, I personally dislike using personalitypage as any kind of source to compliment theory discussions because its content is rather, er fluffy. It gives a decent summary of the traits and tendencies of each personality, but it lacks in explaining the mechanics that it draws it conclusions from. I personally prefer this site as a source. It gives you an overview of the same thing, except it does a better job of explaining how the tertiary and inferior functions grow and develop to compliment existing functions rather than making it seem like they come about from thin air like they never existed there before.
 
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These are phases of development. They say nothing about what's going on the cognitive level or how the functions interact with or compliment one another. I do not see how this directly contradicts anything I said.

Mind you, I personally dislike using personalitypage as any kind of source to compliment theory discussions because its content is rather, er fluffy. It gives a decent summary of the traits and tendencies of each personality, but it lacks in explaining the mechanics that it draws it conclusions from. I personally prefer this site as a source. It gives you an overview of the same thing, except it does a better job of explaining how the tertiary and inferior functions grow and develop to compliment existing functions rather than making it seem like they come about from thin air like they never existed there before.

I must've understood something you said incorrectly. I apologize. I don't think that's necessarily true though. In your link it says we develop our inferior function before our tertiary. That's the opposite of what my link suggested and the opposite of what I've experienced. Maybe both Se and Ti develop at the same time in our 20s? IDK. I'll just have to wait and see.
 
I must've understood something you said incorrectly. I apologize. I don't think that's necessarily true though. In your link it says we develop our inferior function before our tertiary. That's the opposite of what my link suggested and the opposite of what I've experienced. Maybe both Se and Ti develop at the same time in our 20s? IDK. I'll just have to wait and see.

That's what it's felt like for me. Ti sort of helps me rationalize why Se needs work (even though Se is sort of supposed to be unreflective and all...lol, oh well).

All I know is that I use Se very sparingly. Only when I absolutely need to. And even then...
 
I must've understood something you said incorrectly. I apologize. I don't think that's necessarily true though. In your link it says we develop our inferior function before our tertiary. That's the opposite of what my link suggested and the opposite of what I've experienced. Maybe both Se and Ti develop at the same time in our 20s? IDK. I'll just have to wait and see.

No worries! If you do some more exploring of the site, it explains the reasoning for this. I give a very quick colesnotes of it below.

That's what it's felt like for me. Ti sort of helps me rationalize why Se needs work (even though Se is sort of supposed to be unreflective and all...lol, oh well).

All I know is that I use Se very sparingly. Only when I absolutely need to. And even then...

What do you mean your tertiary Ti helps you rationalize why Se needs to work? How would your auxiliary or even your tertiary function be able to know what to develop next without having a perspective on the goal of personality development first? Your middle functions don't have the global picture of what needs to work with what.

Your inferior function, however, does. It is your anima/animus. It houses the goal; the finish line; the balance factor, the motivator. Think about it. As soon as your dominant function is locked in, so is your inferior. Your auxiliary and tertiary functions fall in between to mediate between the two extremes. If anything, your inferior would be the one prompting you to develop your tertiary in order to bridge the gap with its struggles with the dominant and auxiliary.

Inferior functions will begin to project themselves more noticeably than middle functions because they're twined with your dominant and being a book-end function, they are more easily recognized from the outside. That doesn't mean that the inferior has developed more (ie. become more efficient for conscious use) before tertiary; it is only that it is speaking up and forcing you to develop the other, more conscious functions to cope with its unconscious demands that manifest as its neuroses.

It can be argued that the dominant-inferior bipolar relationship is responsible for some of the identity crises that develop in our late teens to early twenties. Mental disorders also pop up around this time. We're locked in a struggle between what we are and who we think we should be and our behaviour gets confusing. We start making weird career choices, rushing into relationships that appeal to an ideal rather than true compatibility, start trying on different hats, etc. Our animus is coming to the fore but we have not yet polished our development to realize its goals. That's what prompts us to start searching. Auxiliary and Tertiary are just supporting players in that goal.

As an INFJ, you would very much indeed be using your inferior Se every single day. It's what unconsciously dictates and feeds your Ni.

In your own view, what would you say drives the development of your non-dominant functions? What triggers them? How do they work together, if at all? How would you say your inferior manifests itself (if at all)? What is the purpose of the inferior?
 
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