The INFJ quest for validity

That is an excellent description, satya.
How would the same apply to INFP?
 
gloomy-optimist said:
Hot damn, Satya, I'd say you hit the nail on the head!
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Thank you.

EloquentBohemian said:
That is an excellent description, satya.
How would the same apply to INFP?
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Thanks.

I could only speculate about INFPs. They are fierce individualists. They decide the value of ideas by how they feel about them and then support that with what they know about them. They assign absolute value based on their feelings which means they form a virtual dogma, but they also reject dogma because their individualistic nature perceives it as authoriative. I imagine they are constanlty at war with themselves. On one end, trying to be as free as possible to be themselves, but on the other end, trying to reign in control of their feelings because they kow they aren't absolute. For some INFPs, this translates in the external world by treating everything as a dichotomy, "good" vs. "evil", "us" vs. "them", "freedom" vs. "tyranny", etc.
 
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Thanks, sayta. That was clarifying. It seems like INFP's are constantly in an internal battle with themselves.
 
Duty said:
I know you guys keep saying that "you can't understand the mind of an INFJ unless you are one," but I'm going to keep asking questions and try anyways...

My questions: Why do you extrapolate from the unseen? Why do you prefer one type of "unseen" over another (in your case Indigo...why new age-type stuff instead of, say, Islam...why faith in religion instead of philosophy...etc)?
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I agree with Satya's quote, and I would also say that it's a different filtering process, too. Our strength as INFJs is clashing against the weaknesses of an INTP. We're looking at the same problem in two different ways. We come up with similar answers but how we come up with our answers isn't the same way you find yours. And that can be frustrating to someone who doesn't use the same processes.

I caught this revelation a few weeks back with my ESTP mom. She and I use the exact same processes, just in a different order. So we often argue about the same things but we inevitably came up with the correct conclusions, just at different times and in different ways.

It's very, very difficult for you to use something other than logic to find conclusions - for us logic is secondary. We use it, but we trust our intuition to tell us and then we use logic to verify it. Our intuition is, invariably, right and we can't explain how it is...it just is.

Saying all that...I've had personal experiences and I've run Christianity through my Ni filter. I wouldn't call myself a typical Christian because I'm not very conservative. Took me a while to accept that I'm not normal, too. :) But taking Christianity to its essence - away from the groups, the factions, the money-grubbers, the yellers, the screamers...all of that. Breaking it down to its essence of God's love, of God wanting to know me and God experiencing life with me, of God wanting to help me experience life as it should be not as I think it should be, of God wanting me to have an existence with him in the lead, of God explaining certain truths and tenets from His point of view, of God teaching me who He is and why He did certain things...all of this resonates with me. The more I explore Christianity through the filter of Ni and the more I explore Christianity with those who are open to that filter, the more I know this is the life for me.

I can't say it's for everyone, because it's obvious not everyone goes this direction. But that's my reason for choosing Christianity over other religions. I admit, though, some of my Christianity has parts of other religions in it, but to be fair some other religions have parts of Christianity in them, too.
 
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Yes. I have similar experiences with religion -- it's not just this, it's not just that. I'm not a normal Christian, I don't go to church, and I don't care to be involved in any of the "symbolic" or "ritualistic" things. I've been constantly filtering what I know about it, like arbygil. And it goes beyond that; research, logic, sociology have also come into play. I've come to a sort of hybrid religion between Christianity, Eastern philosophy, and scientific knowledge, and many of my beliefs are complex and fairly unique, but somehow also more basic. My functions help me filter out everything that's clouding up the "true meaning," the base intention, and the spiritual meaning, leaving something based off of something "conformist" but still entirely different...

Did anyone post a link to that thread Wyote made? Here: http://forum.infjs.com/showthread.php?t=2780
 
arbygil said:
Saying all that...I've had personal experiences and I've run Christianity through my Ni filter. I wouldn't call myself a typical Christian because I'm not very conservative. Took me a while to accept that I'm not normal, too. :) But taking Christianity to its essence - away from the groups, the factions, the money-grubbers, the yellers, the screamers...all of that. Breaking it down to its essence of God's love, of God wanting to know me and God experiencing life with me, of God wanting to help me experience life as it should be not as I think it should be, of God wanting me to have an existence with him in the lead, of God explaining certain truths and tenets from His point of view, of God teaching me who He is and why He did certain things...all of this resonates with me. The more I explore Christianity through the filter of Ni and the more I explore Christianity with those who are open to that filter, the more I know this is the life for me.

I can't say it's for everyone, because it's obvious not everyone goes this direction. But that's my reason for choosing Christianity over other religions. I admit, though, some of my Christianity has parts of other religions in it, but to be fair some other religions have parts of Christianity in them, too.
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I had much resonance with your experience of Christianity. For the moment it does not appear to be the choice for me, but I still hold what I experienced with deep respect and value because of the ideals of love, intimacy, acceptance, and humility filtering through my Ni during that time.

It's very much a process as Satya described where I've filtered out the essence that was meaningful to me and now it becomes a linking piece to wherever I'm headed in the future.
 
arbygil said:
I agree with Satya's quote, and I would also say that it's a different filtering process, too. Our strength as INFJs is clashing against the weaknesses of an INTP. We're looking at the same problem in two different ways. We come up with similar answers but how we come up with our answers isn't the same way you find yours. And that can be frustrating to someone who doesn't use the same processes.

I caught this revelation a few weeks back with my ESTP mom. She and I use the exact same processes, just in a different order. So we often argue about the same things but we inevitably came up with the correct conclusions, just at different times and in different ways.

It's very, very difficult for you to use something other than logic to find conclusions - for us logic is secondary. We use it, but we trust our intuition to tell us and then we use logic to verify it. Our intuition is, invariably, right and we can't explain how it is...it just is.

Saying all that...I've had personal experiences and I've run Christianity through my Ni filter. I wouldn't call myself a typical Christian because I'm not very conservative. Took me a while to accept that I'm not normal, too. :) But taking Christianity to its essence - away from the groups, the factions, the money-grubbers, the yellers, the screamers...all of that. Breaking it down to its essence of God's love, of God wanting to know me and God experiencing life with me, of God wanting to help me experience life as it should be not as I think it should be, of God wanting me to have an existence with him in the lead, of God explaining certain truths and tenets from His point of view, of God teaching me who He is and why He did certain things...all of this resonates with me. The more I explore Christianity through the filter of Ni and the more I explore Christianity with those who are open to that filter, the more I know this is the life for me.

I can't say it's for everyone, because it's obvious not everyone goes this direction. But that's my reason for choosing Christianity over other religions. I admit, though, some of my Christianity has parts of other religions in it, but to be fair some other religions have parts of Christianity in them, too.
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Yes! Thank you for articulating it! That's what Christianity should be! Afterall, isn't the Christian "mantra" it's not a religion - it's a relationship! That's beautiful, and good, and right. I love that picture. ^_^
 
This is an outstanding thread!
 
Wyote said:
Because it's really freakin frustrating when you know you are right, but don't know how to explain why =)
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That's perfect. :)
 
IndigoSensor said:
As I have said before. I hate leaving things open, ended. I have to fill in the blanks, because everything has to have some kind of answer to it. I go with what I reason out and what feels right to me. Largely, these assumptions hold completly true.
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Satya said:
INFJs see the world as multifaceted. We often see the world as an infinite number of equally valid perspectives since we are instinctively aware of our cognitive biases and the limitations to our senses. As I said in a quote I posted in another thread...

So the INFJ mind is constantly trying to find validity in everything it believes by observing how much value it has in life so that they can develop some personal meaning in this world. Eventually the INFJ's mind gathers enough supporting evidence that it stops looking for a basis of this meaning. For example, a Christian INFJ may have seen the Bible drastically improve the lives of many people and thus determined that it has value and a Scientific INFJ may have seen the scientific method drastically improve the lives of many people ad thus determined that it has value. If these two INFJs were to encounter each other then they would demand that the other disprove their position. Once an INFJ has made up their mind, the burden of the proof falls on the external world to prove them wrong.

However, since so many views have seemingly equal validity, each INFJ typically develops a unique and complicated mixture of beliefs. An INFJ usually accomplishes this by integrating new beliefs into what they already believe by using intuitive connections between the old and the new. For example, the Christian INFJ may find science to have validity so they may intuit some connection between the two, like evolution being a part of God's creation. Whereas the Scientific INFJ may accept the Bible has validity and therefore they may intuit that some sort of natural and observable God exists that can be understood through careful empirical observation. As more and more new beliefs are intuitively added to the already established beliefs, a very original and highly intuitive belief system emerges.

The INFJ's belief system is usually a very mystical thing to them, and because the process of developing it occurs over a lifetime, it is incredibly difficult to explain to people. However, because it is composed of ideas the INFJ has decided has value from careful study, observation, and experience, the INFJ has a certain amount of certainty in it. And as the INFJ's belief system is usually constantly evolving to incorporate new ideas and restructuring the intuitive connections between the old ideas, it may drastically change shape over time.

Does that work?
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So, I had to go through this several times to distill it, so I'm going to throw some thoughts in order to gain some understanding.

I'm guessing the basic question here is validation, yes?

Dealing only with only two example here, both INFJ and INTP seek validation, in other words, a conclusion must be arrived at, correct?

Yet, INFP does not seek validation, no conclusion needs be drawn, correct?

[excerpt from above:]Once an INFJ has made up their mind, the burden of the proof falls on the external world to prove them wrong
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Where does the "burden of proof" lie for an INTP?
 
*crawls out from the lurking corner*
Wow Satya, nice. Good work!

I wanna quote "Sebastian Stark" a character from the series Shark, just ... because
"Truth is relative. Pick one that works."

:m131:

Keep it up people!
Awesome threads :D
 
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http://writing.colostate.edu/guides/research/relval/pop2b.cfm
The word "measure" catches my mind. I have to read it again before replying.
Does the infj "measure" as much as the intp? Is the infj always seeking to expand physical boundaries, accept them, or deny them? Do we not place a line in the sand ever? Is there not a point when "faith" in something grows into its very existence? Maybe I am questioning the validity of using measurements to Colorado State? Is ambience nothing to do with validation?
Can there not be a time when research and questioning over many years, along with communicating and sharing with others, can bring a peace and understanding that warrants and thus validates one's beliefs?
I do wholly agree at a certain age it may seem somewhat rediculous to blindly place faith in something. I most likely have questioned scriptures at least as much as most anyone reading this. We need understanding. It can be looked at as a digression from faith as a little child into a need for understanding, followed by satisfied faith into belief beyond question. The child jumps from a diving board into his parent's arms in the deep water. The parent holds the hands up and tells the child to jump. As the child grows, the child may question whether to jump or not. The military feels they know of an age when young men and women cannot be molded any more into what they expect of someone in their service. They validate this with experience, placing a high degree of information they have gathered over the years of high value for a specific reason. The older person has become somewhat set in his or her ways, so they say. I feel the older we get and the more we question specific things, the less we question them as we become satisfied a bit and move on to discover something new.
Guess it best described as an acceptance of a gift.
 
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