the lost wisdom

[Barnabas]

You haven't dissproved anything.....you can't make it untrue by saying it is untrue and you can't just wish it away

I am talking about knowledge passed down from before the Catholic Church. The jews were exiled to Babylon and were influenced by Babylonian ideas

The point i am making is that the middle east was a melting pot of ideas and beliefs and christianity grew out of that

As for trusting manuscripts. History books always have a bias and you should be as cautious with religious manuscripts as with history books.

The dead sea scrolls have been found which are adding new understanding and more will be found yet.

Different branches of the church have different beliefs eg The Syriac, The Coptics, Orthodox, Catholic etc

You can't make it true by saying it is I've, presented evidence to dispute your claims

The claim for or evidence of Christianity being sun religion is found NO WHERE in the Bible.

The idea that Christians take communion as form extended sun worship has no legitimacy due the fact that it's heritage can be traced back to it's Jewish roots.

The Jews them selves a very long history ignoring or fighting of invading culture of other countries. Why do you think the Temple was destroyed twice? So while some Jews did partake in the culture of other empires like Rome and Babylon, the vast majority retained their culture. That is easily noted by the fact that Jerusalem still exists with practicing Jews and Christians

As far as the Bible being bias, it's bias is towards God as it has no real political or ambitious motivations.


Even if different branches have different beliefs, the differences from largest branches are minor at best. Splits have happened over petty disputes as often as theological ones.

Hell one group split because one side said that you should play an instrument in church for worship. A subject never brought up in the Bible.

The middles east may have been melting pot of culture, but the Jews and early Christians for didn't partake in it.

 

[Morgain]

I have a LOT to say on these subjects but unfortunately I am at work and cannot do so here. But I wanted to say that I've read this thread and am fascinated.

I've read Dan Brown's books. I've read a lot of other articles and seen documentaries on the topics covered in the posts. I'll come back when I have the time to collect my thoughts and contribute.

please do, I'm really interested in this matter!!

and very interesting Muir, I wished I knew more about gnosticism and freemasonry

If your wondering if you can trust the manuscripts we have now, don't or at least do your own research into them. We have more copies of biblical letters from before the catholic church was founded and before the fall of the Roman empire. The actual letters would have been written even earlier.

They do not deviate from one another in any large degree, the gospels you open up and read today look the same as those from 1000 years ago and the same as the ones even older then that.

the church only accepted the manuscripts that agreed on there side of the story. Manuscripts like the gospel of Thomas and the gospel of Maria Magdalena were dismissed and even made illigal because they gave a more gnostic viewpoint. If the church and there message was honest and sincere they wouldn't have felt the need to punish people for reading books.

secondly it is proven that the bible has been translated incorrectly. For example in Genesis they translated Elohim as God while Elohim is a plural word so should be translated as "the Gods". But since christianity can not accept more than one God they cover it up...

 

[Barnabas]

please do, I'm really interested in this matter!!

and very interesting Muir, I wished I knew more about gnosticism and freemasonry



the church only accepted the manuscripts that agreed on there side of the story. Manuscripts like the gospel of Thomas and the gospel of Maria Magdalena were dismissed and even made illigal because they gave a more gnostic viewpoint. If the church and there message was honest and sincere they wouldn't have felt the need to punish people for reading books.

secondly it is proven that the bible has been translated incorrectly. For example in Genesis they translated Elohim as God while Elohim is a plural word so should be translated as "the Gods". But since christianity can not accept more than one God they cover it up...

I don't think you know what your talking about. I have to go to class though I'll comment more when I get back.

 

[Agapooka]

I used to have a problem with worship, it bugged me alot. The Idea that God wants us to fall down face in the dirt at his feat bothered me. Or that God wants us to nothing but sing songs about how awesome he is and shout how cool it is to be his.

It seems so narcissistic right?


But I have to disagree with you about one thing, Love does crave acknowledgement, it yearns for return. Unrequited love is the most painful thing I can possibly imagine. It hurt more then any physical wound.

Edit:
I've read your thread, I still disagree. The Idea that love has no selfish connotations is impossible. Using the lose definition of selfish that you wanting something is selfish then the word is no longer a negative but a neutral.

Perhaps this is something we will never agree upon, but I believe that Love, in its purest sense, is not selfish in any way. If you're drawing from your own experience to confirm or contradict that, it may very well be that you have never seen Love expressed in this way.

Unrequited Love... again, if it expects something in return, I don't call it Love. The pain, in this case, is a result of the expectation not being met. Love would feel pain in a different way: as a universal force (you call this "God"), it would be saddened that its Love was not understood, because this reflects on the ultimately self-destructive state of someone who is incapable of understanding Love. And because it Loves this being, how does it feel about the fact that this being doesn't Love itself? That it is stuck in a mindset that is destroying it and others that are Loved by the Same...

It is true that, in order to give, one must receive, lest one have nothing to give. Do you not believe that God is infinite and can provide for its own needs? Taking is an attitude of the finite. Expecting and wanting things in return are expressions of a finite reality, where insecurities result from the belief that there is not enough for everyone. Love rests on the assumption of the infinite.

You are right in one thing, but you did not finish your sentence:

Love as I described it is impossible... ... without an infinite Source.

If you tell me that Love as I described it is impossible for the Divine, you are giving away your human understanding of the Divine, because you are ascribing it the only kinds of qualities that you understand: finite qualities.


Agapooka

 

[muir]

You can't make it true by saying it is I've, presented evidence to dispute your claims

The claim for or evidence of Christianity being sun religion is found NO WHERE in the Bible.

The idea that Christians take communion as form extended sun worship has no legitimacy due the fact that it's heritage can be traced back to it's Jewish roots.

The Jews them selves a very long history ignoring or fighting of invading culture of other countries. Why do you think the Temple was destroyed twice? So while some Jews did partake in the culture of other empires like Rome and Babylon, the vast majority retained their culture. That is easily noted by the fact that Jerusalem still exists with practicing Jews and Christians

As far as the Bible being bias, it's bias is towards God as it has no real political or ambitious motivations.

Even if different branches have different beliefs, the differences from largest branches are minor at best. Splits have happened over petty disputes as often as theological ones.

Hell one group split because one side said that you should play an instrument in church for worship. A subject never brought up in the Bible.

The middles east may have been melting pot of culture, but the Jews and early Christians for didn't partake in it.

I don't know how much influence different groups had on creating the bible or on editing it (including choosing what texts are included and which excluded)....who REALLY does?

Aside from these considerations there is also how we are taught to INTERPRETE the bible. There are different ways to read things and sometimes things of a poetic nature have added meaning behind the words....jesus himself used parables (analogies) to try and give greater meaning/impact to what he was saying. There is gematria as well. Even the 1 (vav meaning 'nail') symbol of the hebrew alphabet representative of the three nails used to nail jesus to the cross have allegorical meaning:

'The gematria of the WORD vav...sp. vav/yod/vav is 22. One other word with the same gematria is "CHowach". It means thistles or THORNS! Again, relating to the suffering and death on the cross of Christ. 22 is also the number of letters in the Hebrew alphabet and so the VAV which represents the suffering on the cross would represent the fulfilling of the whole alphabet or the whole WORD of God.' (I googled something and found the above on a christian forum: http://www.christianforums.com/t55247/). it wasn't the meaning that I was looking for but it will serve as an example of other interpretations)

You are talking about jewish roots? Ok so jewish mysticism is called Kabbalah (Solar consciousness on the kabbalistic tree of life is found in Tiphereth).This is ancient wisdom possibly from Sumeria. The bible talks about the exodus from egypt, though some historians question this....but Egypt had its wisdoms as well which will have also influenced the jews, not to mention Proto-Indo European influences such as sun worship: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion.

Then there were zoroastrians (the 3 magi who visited jesus at his birth). The dead sea scrolls it is believed belonged to a group of people called the Essenes who were jewish and had their own set of beliefs (kinda like early socialists)...all these things/ideas/beliefs were going on in that part of the world.

Jerusalem itself was built on Ophel hill which was according to accounts found on 12th Dynasty Egyptian potshards about Caananite cities is recorded as 'Rushalimum' which translates as 'founded by Shalem'; Shalem was a Syrian god identified with the setting sun. So its roots are sun worship.

The bible is highly political, with the story of jesus set at a time when the jews were under the occupation of the Romans

Differences within christianity are many and vast: Monophysitism, Monothelitism, Mandaeism, Manichaeism, Notzrim, Ebionites, Nazarenes, Essenes, Cathars, Cabalism etc

The jews and christians were influenced by the melting pot of ideas and beliefs and their own beliefs have evolved out of them. The bible even talks about the Israelites worshipping a golden calf and about Moses outdoing the Egyptians at their own magic.

The old testament tells us that whilst in exile in babylon Ezekiel had a vision of a restored temple. This became a hoped for ideal for the jewish people. In the new testament, in the Gospel of John 2:16, Jesus says: 'Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up' which is taken to mean that instead of an earthly temple, Jesus is to represent the temple and paradise the new Jerusalem (idea from 'The Templars' by Michael Haag)

 

[Agapooka]

Aside from these considerations there is also how we are taught to INTERPRETE the bible.

Exactly.

Christians have been told to interpret the text in particular ways. They've been told what is meant literally and what is meant metaphorically. They've been told when the context is relevant and when to make the context relevant by interpreting the context.

And above all, they've been told to accuse anyone who is interpreting the Bible differently of accusing them of taking the words out of context - as if anyone can know the context. Mostly, as far as understanding the context goes, you are limited to what you're told, some historical records (and their interpretations) and etc.

Even if a context were well understood, it's still possible to find multiple interpretations for it that would still account for any relationship between it and its context.


Agapooka

 

[Barnabas]

This debate is pointless, I'm tired or reiterating the same points with new words.
Facing the same arguments used in your last several posts.

I'm simply going to end with this, Christianity is not a religion that focuses on sun worship.
It is not a religion of self deification neither of these concepts are found in the Bible.
Unless you can show me a two or more verses in the Bible, then your arguments are pointless, if you wish I can show you several verses from both the Old and New Testament that disprove both of those concepts.

If your evidence lies outside the Bible, then it is all but useless, if your evidence is a personal interpretation then it to is all but useless.

Trust me or don't, I'm correct in these matters.

 

[Morgain]

lets talk about "the spark within" instead of taking bible lessons

does anyone believe in it? Does anyone has experienced it and how did you achieve that experience?

 

[nil]

it is almost impossible to describe what "the kingdom of heaven" means. It is been given many descriptions and this is one from the bible. Other descriptions would be "your inner source, the god within, tao, your boedha, ..."

They are probably all the same anyway.

I feel rather certain that there was something lost, long ago, but I'm not sure that this is it. Perhaps the enlightened men knew... maybe they all interpreted it differently. Time has destroyed many things, and we have forgotten much. I believe that there are things in the universe which cannot objectively defined or measured...

Make no mistake about it. Something is lost. It is embedded in Gnosticism and Paganism and Occultism and many other forms of Mysticism. It just remains to determine what it is. It is found everywhere, yet it is hidden from sight. "Origin," "End," "Infinity." also, "Balance" and "Harmony." I think these elements are somehow tied in.

This probably sounds dumb. I don't care. My subjective experience gives me a firm reason to believe something such as this.

 

[muir]

This debate is pointless, I'm tired or reiterating the same points with new words.
Facing the same arguments used in your last several posts.

I'm simply going to end with this, Christianity is not a religion that focuses on sun worship.
It is not a religion of self deification neither of these concepts are found in the Bible.
Unless you can show me a two or more verses in the Bible, then your arguments are pointless, if you wish I can show you several verses from both the Old and New Testament that disprove both of those concepts.

If your evidence lies outside the Bible, then it is all but useless, if your evidence is a personal interpretation then it to is all but useless.

Trust me or don't, I'm correct in these matters.

I think the focus is where the individual decides to put it

 

[randomsomeone]

Does anyone has experienced it and how did you achieve that experience?

The spark within...yes, I do experience it. To me is all came through seeing everything through entirely new eyes. I got some glimpses in a moment, but it takes time otherwise as experience is such a large factor. I had to unlearned more than I learned because it was really more a matter of the heart. Preconceptions had to give way...they tended to block things. There were times of growth and times of decontruction. For me it has been a 40 year journey thus far.

Yet, while I could easily describe this as an inner life/fire/spark, I have always (and still) experience this purely as emanating from Another, a gift that resonates inside with a sense of creative energy, destiny, and profound dignity/love. It is a connection, a resonance, with All That Is.....everywhere. Deep, deep caring and love that imparts all.

Thing is, (and surprising perhaps) it that this all has been primarily fed within the experience my own Church community. I think there is hidden wisdom right there, oft overlooked!

This seems inescapable to me as well: there is something very, very deep, ancient, and cosmic about connection to our Divine Destiny (which originates in Divine Life/Divine Love) needing a repair, a mediated and fundamental correction....a restorative act. It was very broken. In this light, I believe that Jesus (God-With-Us) truly did accomplish something truly and utterly amazing....somethng deeply, cosmically needed. We blow right past it. There is a vast paradox here to consider. It is not just part of the culture of one religion, it is something far more primal and universal.

One last thought from my own perspective...it has become a widely accepted part of our current culture to denigrate religion (and regarding certian aspects this is deserved) and belittle it's value. However, according to other aspects within, there is immense and irreplacable wealth here. For individuals seeking Truth, dislike of religion altogether will become a blockage. That does not mean one must join this congregation or that, not at all. I am talking about a general distain in the heart that must be let go of or it will impoverish us, cripple us, perhaps even poison us in our search. Spiritual wealth surrounds us...drink deeply where you can find it authentically.

 

[aeon]

lets talk about "the spark within" instead of taking bible lessons

OK :thumb:

does anyone believe in it?

It feels strange to me to say I believe something that is ineffable, but my experience and awareness tell me that there is not just a spark within, but the uni-verse itself

 

[randomsomeone]

Aside from that various nuances that distinguish authentic religious communities and spiritual approaches, I suspect that (from what I have seen and I have found nothing to the contrary) the inner journey into God (in my Church, the mystical tradition) is very, very similar when you get down to those inner matters of the heart. Yes, the external religious nuances remain and retain their significance, but inside the person the dynamic demonstrates great similarity across the board, as if based on a construct that is fundamentally the same.

 

[muir]

I think that belief systems across the world are often talking about the same concepts but are using different language to describe them

Also i don't think wisdom is itself harmful, i think it is what people do with it that matters

If people use wisdom to control people then i think that is a 'black lodge'

If people use wisdom to seek enlightenment and to help others to pursue their own enlightenment then i think that is the correct and beneficial application of them

For that purpose I see the approach of looking within oneself as the true path to enlightenment.

As a magician put it to me recently, the pursuit of enlightenment is the pursuit of 'true wisdom and perfect happiness'

People are using different paths to achieve that

It seems, we have all the answers within ourselves needed to achieve true wisdom and perfect happiness; it's just a case of finding the keys to unlock them

 

[Norwich]

Aside from that various nuances that distinguish authentic religious communities and spiritual approaches, I suspect that (from what I have seen and I have found nothing to the contrary) the inner journey into God (in my Church, the mystical tradition) is very, very similar when you get down to those inner matters of the heart. Yes, the external religious nuances remain and retain their significance, but inside the person the dynamic demonstrates great similarity across the board, as if based on a construct that is fundamentally the same.

Agreed!
Check out this document [MENTION=1939]Dave[/MENTION] found.

this post led me to this doc. it is a good read

sidnl.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/sid_2005_2006_03_armstrong.doc

this is a website, cut and paste it into your browser window and it downloads a 9 page word doc that is the text of a presentation Karen Armstrong gave a few years ago

 

[Morgain]

Aside from that various nuances that distinguish authentic religious communities and spiritual approaches, I suspect that (from what I have seen and I have found nothing to the contrary) the inner journey into God (in my Church, the mystical tradition) is very, very similar when you get down to those inner matters of the heart. Yes, the external religious nuances remain and retain their significance, but inside the person the dynamic demonstrates great similarity across the board, as if based on a construct that is fundamentally the same.

I totaly agree. In essence all religions are talking about the same thing.
What Church is it that you are talking about, it sounds more interesting than my church

Also i don't think wisdom is itself harmful, i think it is what people do with it that matters

If people use wisdom to control people then i think that is a 'black lodge'

If people use wisdom to seek enlightenment and to help others to pursue their own enlightenment then i think that is the correct and beneficial application of them

True. But I don't really think that you can use wisdom in a harmful way. Knowledge yes but wisdom not. I think if someone found wisdom (s)he will not see the need anymore to control people and the ones who want to control people haven't found wisdom yet :becky:


Do you ever feel a conflict between morality (what you're society/family/friends prescribes) and what "your inner voice/wisdom" says? When you have to make a choice, is it based on what you feel (not superficial emotions but more a sense of truth/harmony/right) or on what you are supposed to choose?

 

[muir]

Disclaimer: If you are offended or unsettled by discussions about the occult, then this post isn’t for you. The internet is just a resource. People can choose what is useful to them and what they want to ignore or discard. ‘Let the buyer beware’

True. But I don't really think that you can use wisdom in a harmful way. Knowledge yes but wisdom not. I think if someone found wisdom (s)he will not see the need anymore to control people and the ones who want to control people haven't found wisdom yet

Do you ever feel a conflict between morality (what you're society/family/friends prescribes) and what "your inner voice/wisdom" says? When you have to make a choice, is it based on what you feel (not superficial emotions but more a sense of truth/harmony/right) or on what you are supposed to choose?

I agree with what you are saying about someone who has true wisdom

I wasn’t meaning wisdom in a kabbalistic sense, i meant wisdom in a dan brown...these people have knowledge they are keeping from us....sense.....occult knowledge

This has been used for good (enneagram came from the mystic Gurdjieff & MBTI came from the work of Carl Jung who was heavily influenced by the occult) and it has also been used for bad (by power elites seeking to control people. The Nazis were heavily influenced by the occult)

The occult saying ‘as above so below’ is saying that we are the microcosm and the cosmos is the macrocosm. We are all connected. Science is supporting this by saying we and everything in the universe are all made of the same 92 elements and were all created from a single point....so of the same matter. So the occult and spirituality is all about looking for answers within yourself and without. Gaining greater understanding of ourselves through meditation or by systems such as MBTI or enneagram can be a healing process.....it can also be a turbulent process. These areas also offer answers about the world around us, which can be healing in itself because it makes us less afraid (of the unknown) and we are able to identify and deal with possible threats and navigate our way around the pitfalls of the system

In the west, which has been predominantly a christian culture, anything which is not sanctioned by the church has been demonised so that many people become wary of it

Many people see the occult as dark and dangerous. I think that it can be dark and dangerous but it can also be positive and beneficial depending on how people use it.

For example Aleister Crowley, the British magician said that white magic is trying to gain knowledge and conversation with your holy guardian angel (which is part of the process on the way to enlightenment); if you are doing anything else then it is black magic!

He was accused of black magic and freely admitted that he did practise 'black magic'. He was reacting against the strictly christian upbringing he had (raised amongst the Plymouth Brethren) and wanted to free people from what he saw as a false spiritual path.....he did this sometimes by shocking people. He called himself 666 the beast. To christians this sounded like the devil.

But in Kabbalah (the bible is all about kabbalah) the three vavs (which is the sixth number in the hebrew alphabet), representing the nails that pinned Jesus to the cross, make 666 which is the number of man and also the sun

I don’t want to defend Crowley, the man too much because i think he was flawed; but then everyone is. People sometimes idealise individuals and inevitably end up feeling betrayed when they realise that person is in fact human. For that reason i think it is important for people to look inside themselves. Listen to what others are saying but don’t blindly follow...question it and make sure it fits with your values. Otherwise people end up getting drawn into cultish groups and organisations. I have heard it said that what always happens when a true visionary dies is that their message is ALWAYS subverted or hijacked. For that reason I am wary of any religious or spiritual group. The individual must exercise their own judgement

I think Crowley was trying to hack into people’s reality so that they could see a different perspective and therefore have a choice over what they wanted to believe instead of the single cultural perspective which had been imposed on them by the monopolistic christian culture (which the British exported around the globe on the point of a bayonet). These cultural memes are downloaded into peoples brains from childhood like software into a computer. Some people are left with very limited operating systems and are seeing the world in monochrome instead of technicolour.

To tie this in a bit more to the OP he reformed the OTO (Ordo Templi Orientis) which claims lineage from the Knights Templar

You are talking about looking within for answers. That is, in a way, the most revolutionary thing a person can do; because it is saying to people: 'look you don't need priests, or people telling you what to do, the answers are within you'. But society is strictly controlled and culture is manufactured in such a way as to distract people from inner searching and tells them to seek external material wealth and status and the respect or adulation of others.

The system wants people to be neat little units of production and consumption. It wants peoples behaviours predictable, narrow and easily controlled. The power elites are control freaks.

If members of the public (the ‘workforce’) begin to feel distress or anxiety (anxiety can lead to mania), the system is not interested in helping those people in a holistic way with their problems. Instead the system has created a Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders which categorises people into disorders depending on their symptoms. Then it uses that diagnosis (and trial and error) to prescribe that person with drugs to tranquilise their anxiety. BUT TREATING THE SYMPTOMS DOESN'T SOLVE THE PROBLEMS CAUSING THE ANXIETY IN THE FIRST PLACE. The system does not treat people as human beings it treats them as machines that need to be patched up and sent back out to work some more.

The system doesn't care about the persons problems because the system is probably the cause of the persons stress in the first place. Therefore the system wants to contain them not cure them. The other advantage for the system is that the drugs prescribed are part of an industry in themselves (a multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical industry) which the architects of our system (and culture) own.....they own the pharmaceutical companies, the TV stations, the newspapers, the pop industry, the film industry, the oil and weapons industries etc

People who use knowledge about people and the inner workings of the human mind for control are a black lodge (black magic)

Edward Bernays the nephew of Freud used his uncles ideas about the structures of the human mind and about human emotions to create the Public Relations industry in the USA where advertising and marketing is used to manipulate people’s emotions....that is the engine house of consumerism....materialism (not engagement with the spiritual). Bernays was also employed by the US government to sway public opinion through the media; for example by drumming up fear in the public to justify their imperialistic invasions and interferences in Central America.

The CIA recruit heavily from Skull and Bones (secret society) members and it has been found have been conducting mind control tests on US citizens without them even knowing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mkultra. Skull and crossbones is a Templar symbol and was used by pirates who some argue had descended from or taken example from Knights Templar, who had turned to piracy against muslim ships, in the med, once they had been driven from the holyland. They operated from Cyprus and the Knights of St John from Rhodes. It’s also found on the gravestones of prominent freemasons.

The Catholic church throughout its history has killed, tortured and converted anyone who has held a different spiritual view; for example: 'witches' (possibly the remains of older pagan beliefs often working with female energies related to the moon and with a goddess....the Catholic church is solar phallic and is working with male energies related to the sun), the Cathars (who were peaceful gnostics) and the various peoples of the Americas, many of which were burned at the stake to intimidate people into converting.

So I believe the Catholic Church is a Black Lodge. When i hear stories in the paper about child abuse within the Catholic Church it is no surprise to me.

I’m not saying that all catholics are black magicians i am saying the Catholic Church who have caused so much suffering in the world are...they are all about control and even now they are telling people not to wear condoms which is having all sorts of negative effects for people, for example the spread of AIDs. Individuals in that faith might not be aware of these things and it is hard for people to discard things which are culturally ingrained.

Some people do not like their perspectives being challenged and will respond by calling a person 'crazy' or a 'conspiracy theorist' or egotistical for even suggesting that there might be something wrong with things the way they are. I think people need to make their own minds up, but that requires getting enough info to make an informed decision. The mainstream media is owned and controlled by the architects of our system and culture....it is a poisoned well. If a person drinks only from that well they will become sick.

The Catholic church did not want the bible to be translated into vernacular language because then people would be able to read it for themselves and be able to make up their own minds. The bible also contained 'revolutionary implications; for example it spoke of prophets who had overthrown wicked kings, and at the same time it failed to support the notion that the bishop of Rome, that is the Pope, should be the supreme leader of a universal Church' (The Templars, Michael Haag). Jesus also turned over the tables of the money changers.

If you consider that money is at the heart of the system (‘money makes the world go around’) then such an act is HIGHLY POLITICAL. Jesus has been hijacked and made safe and turned into some happy clapping softy. He wasn’t. He was a kick ass radical who travelled around telling people that they need to love each other (ie don’t be ruled by fear). He stuck two fingers up at the establishment and they hung him out to dry for it. This process has been repeated countless times by radicals ever since eg Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Daniel Ellsberg and currently Julian Assange and Bradley Manning.

In 2007 the vatican published something called the 'Chinon Parchment'. Baring in mind that Dan Browns global bestseller 'The Da Vinci Code' came out in 2003, the vatican claimed that this parchment was 'discovered', after 700 years, in the secret archive of the vatican by a researcher Barbara Frale who worked at the vatican School of paleontology. This document says the pope at the time of the persecution of the templars pardoned them. However he did not make this public at the time so the Grand Master Jacques De Molay was burned at the stake.

Clearly the vatican was rocked by the controversy kicked up by dan browns book and made the document public to improve their own image. As if this monumental find happening after 700 years and around the time of the Da vinci code mania wasn't amazing enough the same researcher 'discovered' a letter in the vatican archives, in 2009, from around 1287 by a member of the Templars who states that the turin shroud was part of the booty from the sacking of Constantinople and was taken by the templars who used it in their initiation ceremonies.

The initiation ceremonies were the cause of massive controversy around the time of the templars trials by the French secular authorities because it was found that they had to spit on the statue of Jesus lying on the floor. They also had to kiss the base of their masters spine, his neck and his lips. These incidentally correspond to chakra points. The initiations got cruder and more violent as time went on. There were accusations of sodomy, which was condemned by the catholic Church (in public anyway), which has got modern relevance in sex magic (eg The 11th degree of the OTO)

Drugs and libations may have been used for example hashish. When the Egyptian Pharaohs died the next pharaoh was taken to their body and was made to drink the fluid from the pineal gland. This would give them the most intense hallucinogenic experience possible which would give them visions of the world beyond ours. They would have to be initiated into various 'mysteries' as well. These often involved caves and in the UK (and on Temple Mount) wherever you have land owned by Templars you have caves, for example Royston cave:

Interestingly the skulls of many Merovingian Kings had holes cut in them (trepanned). Maybe they were carrying on the tradition of drinking the fluid of the pineal gland? I think one of the drugs they use in 'Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas' is from a pineal gland?!

Freemason and writer Manly P Hall wrote a book about the Pineal Gland, being the eye of god. The pineal gland is the third eye and is one of the meanings behind the all seeing eye used by the freemasons and depicted on the back of the dollar bill. Kinda makes you wonder when you hear stories about the government putting flouride in the water because it gathers in and calcifies the pineal gland....suddenly they don’t sound so crazy. Hitler certainly experimented with using fluoride as a means of controlling people. But then he was a member of the Thule society...an occult society, as was Rudolph Hess

When Hess flew to Britain to try and make a deal with the British he wanted to speak to prominent freemason the 14th Duke of Hamilton. The Hamilton’s are one of the main Norman families in Scotland...who knows perhaps they are descendants of the Templars who settled in Scotland and changed their name to freemasonry.Templar orders across Europe changed their names and carried on operating (people die but corporations don’t) eg ‘The New Order of Christ’ in Portugal.

Hitler wanted to create a 'black chivalry' order and did so with the SS. The swastika is an occult symbol, which isn't bad in itself, but was misused by the Nazis for purposes of control. The Nazis used powerful propaganda and it is clear from things like MBTI and the Enneagram that occult knowledge contains information about the workings of the human mind. Historians discuss Hitler having an almost mesmeric effect on people. Hollywood got good mileage out of the Nazis and their obsession with the occult with its Judeao-christian propaganda films like 'Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark' or 'Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade'......i loved those films as a kid!

All these groups are not trying to enlighten people they are trying to control them...so they are all black lodges

Further to your question I don't necessarily recognise the moral order of society as being in true alignment with our human nature...which is why i think there is so much anxiety, distress, cognitive dissonance and confusion in society.

INFJ's tend to see what is wrong with things quite clearly and what needs to be done to fix it. Once they have gone through all the angles they develop a 'clear vision'. The upside of this is that once an INFJ has done that then they are well equipped to navigate their way through the pitfalls of a world which they may see as out of balance (and throwing many people out of balance).

Someone on the forums, i can't remember who, had for a while as their signature a quote by Krishnamurti, which said, to paraphrase: there is nothing healthy about being well adjusted to an unhealthy society

The task then is to keep oneself balanced in an unbalanced world. This requires an understanding of what is happening and then it becomes possible to intellectualise problems and conceptualise solutions.

The downside of this is that people who do not share or understand that 'clear vision' will call the INFJ crazy or egotistical ('why do you think you're so smart'?)

Bottom line is if people understand what is happening they can take more control of their lives. If they live in ignorance they are like leaves in the wind....likely to be battered about by events.

Greater transparency and accountability in the world of: government, finance and secret societies can't be a bad thing. The people however are kept in the dark

Don't take anything i say as fact, research it yourself. The more light you can pour on the world around you (and in you) the more empowered you will be

 

[randomsomeone]

I suspect true connection to real wisdom (lost, hidden or otherwise misplaced) requires engagement that not many would be able to comprehend on the surface (and some may not even be willng to undertake at all) given the forces of the dominant culture. It is a journey in which things begin to align and make sense only after one has entered with a full heart and a degree of trust. There is little drama here...there is quiet, there is beauty (all sometimes wrapped in paradox)...and if we want to "find the secret" we will probably have to let go of that whole business, too. Immediate gratification is not necessarily a major feature of this realm, nor is inner self-preoccupation. It is more of a current that one must enter into with a degree of stillness, heart-felt openness, and, frankly, love (in the fullest sense of the word).

 

[Stu]

"I'm simply going to end with this, Christianity is not a religion that focuses on sun worship.
It is not a religion of self deification neither of these concepts are found in the Bible.
Unless you can show me a two or more verses in the Bible, then your arguments are pointless, if you wish I can show you several verses from both the Old and New Testament that disprove both of those concepts.

If your evidence lies outside the Bible, then it is all but useless, if your evidence is a personal interpretation then it to is all but useless.

Trust me or don't, I'm correct in these matters."

What I really love about the above quote is the finality with which the standard interpretation of the bible is presented, when in fact the bible is deeply and richly ambiguous right from the start. It is easy to dismiss the religiosity of "sun worship" when one has no idea what the phrase implies. Certainly there has been a strong mystical religion- or group of them- shadowing Christianity that dates back to the Gnostics which has it roots in sacred texts that predate Christianity.

-------------------Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image after our likeness

 

[Barnabas]

I am not resurrecting a 5 month old debate.