The punitive society

[Flavus Aquila]

I grew up that way as well.
So who is going to define the set of societal values that we should all respect and follow? Clearly not everyone agrees with the typical Christian values that have been laid down...and I don’t think that many of them apply to the circumstances of today.
Any thoughts? Perhaps an amalgam of Christian values and something else?

The only value being promoted is personal liberty; the only imperative being promoted is acquiescence to civil power. (The portrait of a selfish, resentful slave).

If any other value is going to be promoted, it we be by those who hold unselfish values.

 

[Lark]

I would agree with the “fear of freedom” idea...there are those who obviously are more comfortable being in a prison life than a life in “normal” society.
Though I am very much in disagreement with the US version of incarceration....especially how we have the largest percentage of people incarcerated in the world.
Time and time again it has been proven that positive reinforcement works by leaps and bounds better than negative reinforcement....and though I am in agreement that someone who commits a criminal act should in fact be “punished” and removed temporarily or possibly permanently from society in order to keep some semblance of order and peacefulness...I feel that we should be doing more in prison to help said individual learn and prosper before releasing them.
As it stands now, a good portion of criminals actually learn to be better criminals and make criminal connections in prison....I am not advocating for solitary prison terms but instead I am advocating for a better way to be offered to them.
Socio-economically most of those in prison DO in fact have a better life IN prison than out of prison...especially after the initial incarceration and subsequent release only to find that no one wants to hire a former inmate...so what other options does someone like that have? They don’t have the money to support their own basic needs and they know, and have the skills to go back to being an even more successful criminal than before they were caught.
So it’s no surprise that we have so many repeat offenders.
I think a line should also be drawn between those offenders who commit crimes in order to live as opposed to those criminals who commit crimes such as rape where there is clearly a disconnect and apathy toward the effect on their victims.

Well Fromm would have suggested that since the social and economic struggles encourage people to objectify others then violence and exploitation, including rape or murder, are natural or logical consequences. Although the Fear of Freedom is a book, originally called Escape from Freedom, rather than a simple observation of some people preferring total institutions to everyday life.

Fromm suggested in fear of freedom that freedom itself was something which most people do not relish, they therefore look for ways to forfeit it as soon as they can, engaging in groupthink, conformity, authoritarianism. The typical personality as a result, he thought, was the authoritarian sort of "middle management mindset" people "kiss up and piss down", that is they admire, honour and obey those they consider superior to themselves, they submit to them, then they tyrannise, brutalise and abuse those they identify as inferior or subordinate.

When this is an unconscious thing the sudden outbursts of institutional violence can be much more pronounced, so you get populations demanding minor crimes are treated the same in terms of sentencing as major incidents. Stuff like the three strikes policies, which are likely to impact upon the stupid or vulnerable rather than simply the criminal. Then again prisons are sort of the academies of failed or failing criminals, one the ones dumb enough to be caught, rather than criminals per se.

 

[Skarekrow]

Well Fromm would have suggested that since the social and economic struggles encourage people to objectify others then violence and exploitation, including rape or murder, are natural or logical consequences. Although the Fear of Freedom is a book, originally called Escape from Freedom, rather than a simple observation of some people preferring total institutions to everyday life.

Fromm suggested in fear of freedom that freedom itself was something which most people do not relish, they therefore look for ways to forfeit it as soon as they can, engaging in groupthink, conformity, authoritarianism. The typical personality as a result, he thought, was the authoritarian sort of "middle management mindset" people "kiss up and piss down", that is they admire, honour and obey those they consider superior to themselves, they submit to them, then they tyrannise, brutalise and abuse those they identify as inferior or subordinate.

When this is an unconscious thing the sudden outbursts of institutional violence can be much more pronounced, so you get populations demanding minor crimes are treated the same in terms of sentencing as major incidents. Stuff like the three strikes policies, which are likely to impact upon the stupid or vulnerable rather than simply the criminal. Then again prisons are sort of the academies of failed or failing criminals, one the ones dumb enough to be caught, rather than criminals per se.

I agree...especially when you take the three strikes law and impose it upon criminals for drug offenses...where there is clearly a disconnect in people’s understanding between someone participating in criminal activities that impact and harm or kill others and those who get caught using drugs one too many times.
Obviously they have addiction problems and I don’t believe that we should be sending those types of law breakers to prison.
This has come to light recently when the sentencing for those who were caught using crack was re-evaluated and deemed too harsh.
If you can’t tell by now, I am of the mindset that we need more reformation in prison and not just time served.
The whole process is stupid and self-replicating if you do nothing to teach or give tools to, those serving time...inevitably, the majority of them, unless they have really had a strong support system upon release, will reoffend.
And of course there are those who find prison more appealing than outside life....in prison they have the potential to be somebody who is respected by the other inmates....unfortunately usually through continuing violence.
Most of those probably hold some respect from others in the outside world, but I would argue that it doesn’t come close to the respect shown to them while in prison.
And then we have to ask ourselves - If society doesn’t give a shit about the convict, then why should the convict give a shit about, or feel empathy toward those they hurt in society? I believe that we need to actually put some money down and attempt to at least rehabilitate these folks...as I see it right now, society feels this would be throwing money in the trash...and so the issue perpetuates.

 

[sprinkles]

Our justice system merely puts a price on crime. If you know your rights and you're willing to go to prison for something, what's to stop you?

Punishment after the fact? If you're not worried about that while you're committing a crime then what good is it?

Punishment is a discouragement? Well in that case how many would be-criminals do we have floating around right next to you who would kill or rob you but they have not yet because they don't want to be punished? What kind of shit is that? Are you comfortable with the idea that your neighbor may not have a moral foundation and the only thing holding them back is the discouragement of going to prison?

The justice system should be for when things really go wrong. It should not be used as a tool to make sure things continue to go right.

 

[sprinkles]

Also our justice system is like having our main source of fire safety be the fire department, fire alarms, and fire extinguishers.

It's like having everybody be careless and prone to starting fires and your first go to is the fire department to manage it. That's not how things are supposed to work. Fire safety is the first foundation and the fire department is there for when things go wrong with that. They aren't there to regulate your fire habits.

Or like having a crash barrier on a mountain road. You don't put it there for the propensity to drive off cliffs. Nobody should be driving crazy and crashing into that barrier all the time. It is there for accidents and mistakes.

 

[Lark]

I agree...especially when you take the three strikes law and impose it upon criminals for drug offenses...where there is clearly a disconnect in people’s understanding between someone participating in criminal activities that impact and harm or kill others and those who get caught using drugs one too many times.
Obviously they have addiction problems and I don’t believe that we should be sending those types of law breakers to prison.
This has come to light recently when the sentencing for those who were caught using crack was re-evaluated and deemed too harsh.
If you can’t tell by now, I am of the mindset that we need more reformation in prison and not just time served.
The whole process is stupid and self-replicating if you do nothing to teach or give tools to, those serving time...inevitably, the majority of them, unless they have really had a strong support system upon release, will reoffend.
And of course there are those who find prison more appealing than outside life....in prison they have the potential to be somebody who is respected by the other inmates....unfortunately usually through continuing violence.
Most of those probably hold some respect from others in the outside world, but I would argue that it doesn’t come close to the respect shown to them while in prison.
And then we have to ask ourselves - If society doesn’t give a shit about the convict, then why should the convict give a shit about, or feel empathy toward those they hurt in society? I believe that we need to actually put some money down and attempt to at least rehabilitate these folks...as I see it right now, society feels this would be throwing money in the trash...and so the issue perpetuates.

Well the central idea is that if imprisonment or legal sanctions dont stop crime then they must fufil some purpose in order to have enduring this long and be something which people feel they're happy to spend money on, especially when no one ever got over excited about criminal justice spending the way they do about welfare spending or social spending.

The three strikes thing was something which was popular with me until I really thought about it, its alright to be frustrated with people who are repeat offenders, either because they are stupid and dont learn or because they simply dont give a shit and are anti-social and selfish as bastards but then that doesnt actually deal with either of those things, it just creates an expensive response to it, expensive in ways other than money too, even regimes like the tent city arrangment of that guy who made the news for having the toughest prison regime in the US are too expensive.

 

[Skarekrow]

Well the central idea is that if imprisonment or legal sanctions dont stop crime then they must fufil some purpose in order to have enduring this long and be something which people feel they're happy to spend money on, especially when no one ever got over excited about criminal justice spending the way they do about welfare spending or social spending.

The three strikes thing was something which was popular with me until I really thought about it, its alright to be frustrated with people who are repeat offenders, either because they are stupid and dont learn or because they simply dont give a shit and are anti-social and selfish as bastards but then that doesnt actually deal with either of those things, it just creates an expensive response to it, expensive in ways other than money too, even regimes like the tent city arrangment of that guy who made the news for having the toughest prison regime in the US are too expensive.

Yes...I agree.
I DO think that prison should not be a cake walk....it should be punitive...it should be regarded as uncomfortable and a punishment.
There is something seriously wrong with either the system or our society in the US when we have the highest percentage of our citizens imprisoned out of any countries in the world.
It is most likely a combination of the two.
And now that it is a hugely profitable business, I don’t see it changing drastically any time soon unfortunately.
I still stand on the side of more reformation, education, and opportunity for the inmates as opposed to harsher sentences or conditions.
In some ways we have created a system that is too easy...things like TV privileges I completely disagree with.
Take a look at prisons in other countries...like Russia for example...it is anything but accommodating. We should not be giving inmates certain rights that free society enjoys. Take away yard socialization, unless they are white collar criminals...anyone in for a violent crime should be segregated.
Make it as uncomfortable as possible without treating them inhumanly and let’s see how the recidivism rate changes.
At the same time, give them a chance to be educated....give them REAL drug treatment....have them take classes on basic human morality and common sense...have them meet once a week with a counselor.
Then once they get out, arrange for some sort of menial job ahead of time (if that is even possible in today’s job market...lol)...instead of having a parole officer check up once a month, add to that required counseling or group therapy...medicate them if necessary, etc.
I don’t know...just some thoughts.