The right to die?

[David54]

Thanks! Hoping to take the ride up to see him tomorrow. Prepared to see him at his worst.

those are difficult trips to make. much love on your journey. .

 

[MoonFlier]

those are difficult trips to make. much love on your journey. .

Thank you. It helps to know there are friends online who don't shrug me off when I need to cry. You and everyone else who lend a supportive "ear" are appreciated more than you'll ever know.

 

[flower]

Thank you for sharing your passionate words!
I very much agree.
Many people have trouble putting themselves in the shoes of another while maintaining a compassionate point of view.
The fact is - no one else will ever know what another is feeling to the depth that they experience it themselves.
No one knows what secret traumas and uncontrollable neurosis are hidden from the view of the public when at all possible.
Like the story in my first post - the fellow who petitioned the courts to let him go via euthanasia - was denied - killed himself.
If it is going to happen then I support any person going as peacefully as possible - many suicides are painful, violent, and horrible ways to die.
If they succeed...sometimes they end up in worse condition than before.

I have also struggled with depression since I was old enough to walk...my earliest memories are my mom asking me, "Why are you crying", "I'm sad", "Why are you sad?", "I don't know".
There are those who have had it far, far worse than I have for certain.
If treatments are exhausted, and said person is unable to function due to their level of suffering - they are indeed autonomous beings and have every right to chose that ultimate decision imho.
It should of course not be taken lightly and it should have the scrutiny of those who understand what is going on from a psychological, physical, and spiritual viewpoint - but I agree that a road should exist for people.
(Guidelines and professionals)
I was considering shock therapy for myself - I tried meditation/fungi first and was incredibly lucky that after 35++ years my depression lifted.
That was outside of the realm of socially normal/acceptable treatments though - and this was after trying probably over 50 different medications for the condition and countless other treatments throughout my life.
Not everyone can or should have to continue on forever when faced with endless suffering on levels only known to them.
Like you pointed out - just because one might disagree with it morally or because of religious beliefs/teachings someone might have - does not mean everyone holds those same views.
And they are allowed.
Who is anyone to tell anyone how to think or feel?

Thanks again for sharing!
I know you have a difficult time sometimes (I don't assume to know), just know that you have lots of support, friends, and love here on the forum Flower.
Have a peaceful day/evening.

Yes... Unfortunately many people aren't able to think or try to feel how the person who is suffering might be feeling. Only the person suffering knows, it's their experience about their own life after all. Not everything is curable, even mental illnesses. Mental illnesses can be as fatal as any fatal physical disease out there. Unfortunately many people believe that some cases (or ALL cases) of mental illnesses can be treated. It's simply not true. What if the person has already tried every possible treatment there is and what he can afford etc.? Does that person has to suffer decades more for trying to find a working treatment? It's inhumane. Like you said... Sadly some people would try to take their life in their own hands in very dangerous ways and would pass away still..

I remember that you've talked about your depression before, it is very sad and I'm so sorry. I'm very glad though that you've found some ways to heal your depression! ''Who is anyone to tell anyone how to think or feel?'' Exactly! We all have the right for our own opinion and this is a very sensitive subject, so it is understandable that people disagree.

Thank you and I am wishing you a lovely day/night too. ^-^

I believe we need more compassion and less reaction in our world. Understand why someone wants to kill themselves before screaming "insanity!" Most always you'll find pain, pain that didn't have to exist.

As for allowing anyone to end their life, I disagree. Science has shown that on average our brains do not mature until about age 26. If an 18 year old says "end it now!" I'd refuse and see what we can do to alter their world to help them. Sometimes it's a mentally and physically abusive environment that has someone feeling like the world should end. Other times it may be that they're living a lie - for example children born with male equipment, but are female through and through otherwise (this is a real condition). Then there are the chemical imbalances. I was born with bad lungs. Others have issues in their brains. I don't look at them as broken, but as needing balance which drugs can provide, much like I take for my breathing.

We definitely need more understanding and compassion in our world. So many people are suffering... Pain shouldn't exist, but sadly it does exist.

I agree with your second point too though I just have a little bit different opinion (as I've written before on this thread) because of my own personal experiences which is understandable. I agree with a lot what @Skarekrow said though you pointed out many reasonable things about this subject which are important to remember.

 

[David54]

Not everything is curable, even mental illnesses. Mental illnesses can be as fatal as any fatal physical disease out there. Unfortunately many people believe that some cases (or ALL cases) of mental illnesses can be treated. It's simply not true

As one who worked their whole life in mental health as a nurse I can certainly attest to this truth. Every few years a new "cure for schizophrenia" hits the market. and just like the one a few years ago, it fades away. There is no cure for most major mental illnesses. drugs can control the symptoms for many, but not everyone responds to medications. Many are left with treatment that renders them nearly unable to participate fully in their own lives due to the sedation side effects of many medications. There are an unfortunate number of folks that struggle to survive every day due to their symptoms. it is a philosophical discussion we have not had. perhaps once we come to terms with the right to die for physical illness we will begin the conversation.

 

[flower]

As one who worked their whole life in mental health as a nurse I can certainly attest to this truth. Every few years a new "cure for schizophrenia" hits the market. and just like the one a few years ago, it fades away. There is no cure for most major mental illnesses. drugs can control the symptoms for many, but not everyone responds to medications. Many are left with treatment that renders them nearly unable to participate fully in their own lives due to the sedation side effects of many medications. There are an unfortunate number of folks that struggle to survive every day due to their symptoms. it is a philosophical discussion we have not had. perhaps once we come to terms with the right to die for physical illness we will begin the conversation.

You've probably good insights about mental health as a mental health nurse. It's very unfortunate that there are so many different medications a person could try, but so many of them have different side effects. I really hope that we as a humanity and a society will find new ways to treat illnesses. Mental illnesses aren't seen as the same as physical illnesses, which is a shame. The brain is an organ too.

 

[David54]

You've probably good insights about mental health as a mental health nurse. It's very unfortunate that there are so many different medications a person could try, but so many of them have different side effects. I really hope that we as a humanity and a society will find new ways to treat illnesses. Mental illnesses aren't seen as the same as physical illnesses, which is a shame. The brain is an organ too.

I guess the way I look at it is that we are body, mind and spirit. disorder in one effects the whole. .treatment for one should include all to achieve real wellness

 

[flower]

I guess the way I look at it is that we are body, mind and spirit. disorder in one effects the whole. .treatment for one should include all to achieve real wellness

I agree. Wellness is all about body, mind and spirit as a whole. : )

 

[Vict]

My paternal grandfather died at the age of 96. He died lost and frightened. I think it's shameful to keep someone alive in such a state for ourselves, because it makes us sad for someone to be gone. It's fuckin selfish.

My final experience with him had a significant impact on me and shaped my outlook on the subject. I didn't think about it much until then.

 

[Skarekrow]

My paternal grandfather died at the age of 96. He died lost and frightened. I think it's shameful to keep someone alive in such a state for ourselves, because it makes us sad for someone to be gone. It's fuckin selfish.

My final experience with him had a significant impact on me and shaped my outlook on the subject. I didn't think about it much until then.

So sorry to hear that Vict.
It's often not until we go through something ourselves that we start understand the full dynamics of such a situation.
I feel it's very easy to say one thing having never witnessed or dealt with experiences and perspectives dying can give us, quite another after living through it.
People can be selfish in this way, I saw this happen frequently at the hospital - families wanting every invasive and complex measures or surgeries to keep someone alive for another couple weeks (albeit in pain).
I can understand both sides of the issue...everyone is hoping that their family member or loved one will be the "miracle" person who will pull through.
Many feel guilt if they don't feel like they do everything possible too, but a lot of it is poor understanding of what many of these drastic life saving measures actual entail, the pain they cause themselves, the odds against them, etc.
Even CPR is incredibly harsh on the body...not to be too graphic but I've seen many broken ribcages and sternums collapsed in afterward.
Many trauma surgeries entail a full opening of the chest cavity or skull which is a very, very long and painful recovery if they should live.
It's very important that folks have a "living will" describing what type of life saving measures they wish preformed and what they do not.
The term "DNR" means "do not resuscitate" for the very reason that people do not want CPR done on them, or to be on a ventilator breathing for them, etc.

We should all talk to our loved ones at the very least - as they will be the ones making such decisions with the Doctors - letting them know it's okay to let us go in whatever circumstances have brought us to that point.

One a lighter note...it's great to see you again Vict!
It's been quite a while.
I hope all is going well for you and your own.
Have a peaceful week!

 

[slant]

My friend suffers from schizophrenia but doesn't believe in mental illness or treatment of mental illness. He vanished in November.

He had reappeared and I just spent 2 1/2 hours on the phone with him. He is really really psychotic right now and wants to have assisted suicide.

This is difficult for me because I'm his friend and I don't want him to kill himself. I don't know if medication actually works for him or not.

The problem with mental disorders like schizophrenia and bipolar is that the psychotic aspect makes them believe things like medicine is a scam and then the things that would make them feel better they resist.

As a person who has what I think is major depressive disorder mixed with anxiety disorders like cptsd, I am always desperately seeking help and willing to try anything. I believe it's the anxiety aspect of it because people who have only depression lack the energy and motivation to seek a solution.

Some of my friends' points are convincing. If it's true that medication and other therapy cannot resolve his symptoms living that way is torture. Psychosis is no joke. I don't want him to die, and I do think that if he could actually take his medication he would be stable. But he won't take his meds.

I was watching this anorexic YouTuber talk about how traumatic it was when she was forced to be hospitalized against her will. She doesn't believe she has a problem and is still in denial and was talking about it from the perspective of a healthy person who was falsely accused.

This is how people with psychotic disorders tend to view themselves also. My coworker is bipolar and refuses to take medication and has tried to convince me to get off of my medication before. It's a pervasive belief that their symptoms aren't problems even though they cause extreme suffering. In bipolar they miss the high moods that they lose when being medicated. With schizophrenia it's the paranoid aspect that leads them to be unable to trust instructions even when they feel better and have medicated away their psychotic symptoms.

If we are unable to treat a mental illness like this at all should these people be allowed to die? I would have to argue morally yes. But I think the problem is that these people can be treated successfully, their disorder makes them do things to prevent this and they only believe that can't be fixed. People who are psychotic can't accurately assess their own circumstances. If there was a legal process to go through that would determine if treatment is effective or if suffering continues no matter what treatment, then yes, I would have to support that.

 

[Breezy the INFP]

I believe we have the right to end our own life if we so choose to. It's our life. If we want out of here, then we should not be prevented from that. It is selfish to impose your will on another person's life, regardless if you see their desire to commit suicide as a "Selfish" act. I truly believe the truth behind the situation, is that preventing someone from this is actually the selfish action. This is assuming that they are only ending their own life, and not doing harm unto others in the process.

 

[Disguised]

From my own perspective to this, being hospitalized for a while for trying to end my life, there needs to be hope, trust and will to live. I haven't recovered fully yet, it's like running in quicksand. You try to get out but it keeps pulling you in. You need help to get out. I still have a taboo for the medication, but I listen to others more now. People say I'm more calm now and I force myself to believe it is of help. I'm in disbelief if therapy will help, but I force myself to have hope it will. Without that driving force or whatever one might call it, there will always be that one way ticket out, but that is no option. I promised that.

I got to say that I'm somewhat glad I didn't end it there and then. There is plenty of time in this world to recover and people who care. I just had to realize that I was ill, but not beyond recovery. I have to rebuild some parts of myself to endure and to be happy again, but it's a "job" worth doing.

 

[Cornerstone]

I found myself reading Terry Pratchett quotes last night and a fair amount of them were regarding his pro-euthanasia views.

I've generally been against it for practical, rather than moral, reasons - a bit like my views on capital punishment.

I think that if we can have DNR requests, we can have euthanasia. I would argue that the best way would be a kind of package deal where there is some form of counseling or mental preparation so that the event itself is a letting go rather than a putting down. There is a guy who talks about death in a fascinating way called Stephen Jenkinson. That's the kind of person I'd want to be running this kind to operation.