The transgender people in restrooms debate

I had a look at this thread and I think this 'issue' is not really about bathrooms, it's about equality. The trans gender community (like other groups) are treated badly. I think it is noble that some people in authority are trying to do something to advance their cause, not because they are 'trans' but because they are human beings, like you or I.

For years I knew a guy, taller than me, popular with women, good at sports (naturally I hated him..). He was a very warm, artistic man, I knew him from age 11. Years later, after I was married he wrote to me. He was transgender and had, after years of therapy unknown to me, decided to make the transition. I was shocked to the point, whether I even wondered if it was a joke of some kind? It wasn't. After I realized the torment and pain she'd been through, it made me realize what a deep, powerful urge people in that position must feel. To take on that big a change, and face the disapproval of so many ? Who has that kind of courage?

I mentioned that, and her response, was when you have 'no choice' it does not take courage. I understand the fears that people have, but really, is that based on evidence? I doubt there has ever been any kind of meaningful study of the use of bathrooms by 'trans' people. To force women (and they are women) to use men's toilets, or go to men's prisons? I would like to think society has made more progress than that. As for criminals abusing the rules? Don't they do that anyway, whatever the rules? As for criminal men dressing up as women to invade women's bathrooms ? Sadly they do not need to do anything that bizarre to attack and assault women, if that is their intention. Also, it would not need a change in the law for them to do that anyway.

Don't think I would disregard the safety of women, children or anyone 'to be politically correct'. However I do think using objectivity and compassion in decision making is important. I can't help but think, in 20-30 years we might (if we're all still on this forum... who knows huh?) look back on this subject in disbelief, that once there was a time, when trans women or men, were forced to use toilets where they felt, unsafe and humiliated. Time will tell, I guess.
 
Here's one perspective. The current infrastructure accomodates for two genders, and it is not feasible to accomodate for anything else. If you can get away with using the bathroom you feel you fit into, that's fine. I have no judgment about who should go where, but I also can't change the world nor its laws.

However, I do have something to say that might sound controversial, and I hope you can try to understand by putting it into context with similar problems. I assert that gender reassignment is a first-world luxury. When you break it down, it's just surgery and hormones. This is something you pay someone else to do to you. It isn't a formal agreement with the governments of the world, and it isn't a new set of rights or expected treatment. The best we can do at the moment is consider their position. It might be something we'd want to accomodate for when more people want this way of life.
 
Why can't Harambe use any bathroom he wants?
 
ruji said:
Here's one perspective. The current infrastructure accomodates for two genders, and it is not feasible to accomodate for anything else. If you can get away with using the bathroom you feel you fit into, that's fine. I have no judgment about who should go where, but I also can't change the world nor its laws.

However, I do have something to say that might sound controversial, and I hope you can try to understand by putting it into context with similar problems. I assert that gender reassignment is a first-world luxury. When you break it down, it's just surgery and hormones. This is something you pay someone else to do to you. It isn't a formal agreement with the governments of the world, and it isn't a new set of rights or expected treatment. The best we can do at the moment is consider their position. It might be something we'd want to accomodate for when more people want this way of life.
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@ruji I think I understand, but I'd suggest that it's really medical treatment, and for those involved actually essential for their well being. I wouldn't regard potentially life changing, even life saving medical treatment a luxury. If so then I think everyone needs to have access to that luxury.

Any small research I think shows that this isn't " a life style choice" or a way to get attention or be fashionable. My friend went through many many years of personal hell before seeking help, then a very long period of counseling before making the change.

One time I was discussing "depression" with a colleague at work, who ridiculously to me, thought it was made up. They thought that people just said this, and it was an excuse and there was nothing wrong with them. I had to remind them that one of their own colleagues had the year, before jumped of a train bridge in front of a train and killed themselves, having suffered with depression. I think when people are in the kind of pain where they will kill themselves to escape it, that it should be taken seriously. His response after a few seconds pause? "But that was different.."

Happily I don't think they'll ever obtain a medical degree.
 
James said:
@ruji I think I understand, but I'd suggest that it's really medical treatment, and for those involved actually essential for their well being. I wouldn't regard potentially life changing, even life saving medical treatment a luxury. If so then I think everyone needs to have access to that luxury.
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My point wasn't to suggest people should feel lucky to have luxuries. I think we all can agree that having access to things we like/want/need, whether they are luxuries, is a nice thing.

The bottom line to all this is simply how much we are to insist the entire world changes to accomodate people whose numbers aren't great enough to warrant such a change?

These sort of arguments occur very frequently. We have to distinguish the difference between one's opinion and ideals from what's feasible and real.

James said:
Any small research I think shows that this isn't " a life style choice" or a way to get attention or be fashionable. My friend went through many many years of personal hell before seeking help, then a very long period of counseling before making the change.
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I'd like to preface this with the fact that we all have problems. I'd like to also point out that there is a new trend to prioritize mental health issues. I am not at all saying these issues are not, or less important. My point is to make this clear as to not dismiss the bias in this thought process. We have to consider all problems in our complex lives.
 
ruji said:
My point wasn't to suggest people should feel lucky to have luxuries. I think we all can agree that having access to things we like/want/need, whether they are luxuries, is a nice thing.

The bottom line to all this is simply how much we are to insist the entire world changes to accomodate people whose numbers aren't great enough to warrant such a change?

These sort of arguments occur very frequently. We have to distinguish the difference between one's opinion and ideals from what's feasible and real.



I'd like to preface this with the fact that we all have problems. I'd like to also point out that there is a new trend to prioritize mental health issues. I am not at all saying these issues are not, or less important. My point is to make this clear as to not dismiss the bias in this thought process. We have to consider all problems in our complex lives.
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I take your point, but here I think mainly it is really about changing people's attitudes, and with a little healthy and informed discussion ? I think that is a very achievable and feasible thing to do. One big societal change I have witnessed in my life was the attitude towards gay people, and when I see how much that has changed and improved, I am very encouraged.

I agree everyone has problems to contend with, I think the way forward is to try and create a society that acknowledges that and helps each other. Largely, despite some set backs, that is what I see happening in the world. On the mental health point, I think it's long overdue that those issues are given higher priority. In the UK where I live, the nhs attention and spending has been very much geared towards physical well being, and it's only now mental health is receiving greater attention. Putting aside compassion even, the cost of ignoring it, absences from work, poor performance and productivity, family break downs, law and order problems, it all adds up. Too often we are told about the 'costs of doing things' without examining the cost of not doing them.
 
hush said:
The Dooks of Hazard. ☠
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So this got me laughing out loud, and then the Grey Guards knew I was goofing off on the internet again. :(

No Worries,
Ian
 
aeon said:
So this got me laughing out loud, and then the Grey Guards knew I was goofing off on the internet again. :(

No Worries,
Ian
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Hehehe, sorry about that :p
 
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