The Triwizard Tournament makes no sense

[John K]

I think it's almost impossible to create this sort of fiction with complete other world conviction for those of us who prefer a high level of coherence. You only have to look at the way an attempt to do this came to possess Tolkein for most of his life, and he was the most successful I'm aware of. It's perhaps not just literary impracticability with the Harry Potter world though - there is also, it seems to me, a deliberate chaotic arbitrariness woven into the very fabric of the Hogwarts world. This is far greater than in the world we know - and is the price paid for the existence of magic and the ability of some people to wield magical power. The dangers manifest at Hogwarts are simply a reflection of the dangers that all wizards seem to face routinely in their everyday lives. The school is set up as far as possible to mitigate those risks, but it would have failed cruelly in its educational responsibilities if the pupils were not taught to accustom themselves and handle confidently the slings and arrows of magical circumstance that their world constantly chucks at them. What seems to go with this situation is that witches and wizards never fully mature into proper adults - they seem to remain prey to the kinds of inner conflicts and emotions that we normally associate with teenage years, even though their skills with magic become adept. They either act as children, or as exaggerated parents, but very rarely as rational adults. It's really interesting to look at the parallels with Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea world which has a lot in common with these features, though that is a rather better crafted world imho. Personally, it doesn't bother me - I don't try and see behind the sets in a Western or spend my time contrail spotting. I'm more than happy to suspend belief when I read or watch the Potter series because the atmosphere grabs me - for some reason, my favourite place is Sirius Black's house lol. I also think the archetypal black and white struggle is well done, because it unfolds in a messy, tragic, ambiguous way that isn't far removed from what happens in real life under similar circumstances, such as WW2.
It must be unfair to accuse Dumbledore of not keeping Harry's best interests in mind. He makes mistakes as all mortals do, but intuitively, and in part objectively, he knows that there will be a showdown eventually between Harry and Voldemort, which only one can win. This is not the same as preparing an able pupil for a normal future life. You have to look at Frodo pitched against Sauron to get a feel for it.
The Goblet of Fire is a good read but it all seems to be a bit far fetched to me as far as its coherence holds within the fantasy world. I mean, if they need to get Harry to the graveyard for the resurrection of Big V why go to all that trouble. They've got Barty Crouch Jnr impersonating Mad Eye - if he's got the magical ability to turn the Champion's trophy into a portkey, surely he could have done that with anything else and made sure Harry grabbed it .... without all that messing about with dragons and eggs, etc. It wouldn't have been such an entertaining story though.

 

[Ginny]

What seems to go with this situation is that witches and wizards never fully mature into proper adults - they seem to remain prey to the kinds of inner conflicts and emotions that we normally associate with teenage years, even though their skills with magic become adept. They either act as children, or as exaggerated parents, but very rarely as rational adults.

I think in some way you'd have to embrace a certain modicum of childishness (or irrationality, to put it slightly different) in order to weild magic. But also, we hardly ever get to see other, "ordinary" witches or wizards in the example of HP, so we cannot tell for sure if there aren't any rational ones. Or perhaps I am not looking at it big-picturely enough?

I remember in the series The Magicians (advertised as HP for adults) they have made a point about magic coming from the power of emotions (haven't read the books therefore I am careful to make the distinction) and bad experiences with lots of hardship make strong magicians. I know there is a ton of self-indulgence in the adult magicians, too, but who knows if it doesn't change between generations, that their children are more mature for what they had to endure?

I remember darkly that in the Inheritance Cycle (Eragon, etc.) the magic was bound to focus and spells (of course with an added natural aptitude), so it required a lot of maturity of Eragon to master his abilities. The spells in that series came from the Elven language, and it takes precision in langue and parole to not make a mess of things (author Christopher Paolini invented the language - like JRR Tolkien too, right?). In this case it differs from the former two in that magic is executed by a selected few, although that case could be made for other franchises as well.

It depends on the construction of the fictional world whether we get to see things as they are in all walks of life or just with a specific group of people. The Harry Potter novels are still featuring children/young adults and are written for children/young adults, with one person being the focal point of view it is written from (apart from the first chapter of the first book perhaps), therefore it is surely a matter of readership that is involved in the creation of characters within the fictional world. Another point that could be added is the level of rationality in the author herself, which may be put into question at the readers' leisure, but I personally wouldn't try to indulge in it because it would take a lot of detailed reading between the lines or knowing the author to do that, and even then it is questionable whether the result would be remotely accurate.

You are likely going to note that I seem to have used 'maturity' and 'rationality' seemingly interchangeably. I might have because I believe those two are linked in some way. I might have got a bit carried away with adding other examples, I think you probably only meant the wizarding population in HP, right? I hope the point got across nonetheless - it needn't be the same everywhere, not in one franchise nor in all of fiction, especially not for the narrow perspectives we get to see the world through.

 

[wolly.green]

It's perhaps not just literary impracticability with the Harry Potter world though - there is also, it seems to me, a deliberate chaotic arbitrariness woven into the very fabric of the Hogwarts world. This is far greater than in the world we know - and is the price paid for the existence of magic and the ability of some people to wield magical power.

I disagree with this. But I've lost interest in this conversation now.

 

[John K]

I think in some way you'd have to embrace a certain modicum of childishness (or irrationality, to put it slightly different) in order to weild magic. But also, we hardly ever get to see other, "ordinary" witches or wizards in the example of HP, so we cannot tell for sure if there aren't any rational ones. Or perhaps I am not looking at it big-picturely enough?

I remember in the series The Magicians (advertised as HP for adults) they have made a point about magic coming from the power of emotions (haven't read the books therefore I am careful to make the distinction) and bad experiences with lots of hardship make strong magicians. I know there is a ton of self-indulgence in the adult magicians, too, but who knows if it doesn't change between generations, that their children are more mature for what they had to endure?

I remember darkly that in the Inheritance Cycle (Eragon, etc.) the magic was bound to focus and spells (of course with an added natural aptitude), so it required a lot of maturity of Eragon to master his abilities. The spells in that series came from the Elven language, and it takes precision in langue and parole to not make a mess of things (author Christopher Paolini invented the language - like JRR Tolkien too, right?). In this case it differs from the former two in that magic is executed by a selected few, although that case could be made for other franchises as well.

It depends on the construction of the fictional world whether we get to see things as they are in all walks of life or just with a specific group of people. The Harry Potter novels are still featuring children/young adults and are written for children/young adults, with one person being the focal point of view it is written from (apart from the first chapter of the first book perhaps), therefore it is surely a matter of readership that is involved in the creation of characters within the fictional world. Another point that could be added is the level of rationality in the author herself, which may be put into question at the readers' leisure, but I personally wouldn't try to indulge in it because it would take a lot of detailed reading between the lines or knowing the author to do that, and even then it is questionable whether the result would be remotely accurate.

You are likely going to note that I seem to have used 'maturity' and 'rationality' seemingly interchangeably. I might have because I believe those two are linked in some way. I might have got a bit carried away with adding other examples, I think you probably only meant the wizarding population in HP, right? I hope the point got across nonetheless - it needn't be the same everywhere, not in one franchise nor in all of fiction, especially not for the narrow perspectives we get to see the world through.

Yes I agree Ginny - I wasn't suggesting that fictional magic always has to go with emotional immaturity and limited wisdom, but that it features in more than one of the magic worlds. It is an interesting trade off in HP - and in Earthsea where for example Ged cannot become a fully adult male until he loses his powers. In Tolkein, though, this isn't true at all - perhaps this is because magic there is primarily an ability restricted to the elves and to the angelic orders. Although HP does focus on the youngsters, there are some pretty well defined adult characters as well - the teachers, parents, Sirius Black, the various Ministers of Magic etc. In transactional analysis terms they all seem to live in Child or Parent mode and very little in Adult - which is saying something very similar to you when you mention maturity and rationality. The Parent in TA can be either very mature or quite immature, in a similar way to the superego.

I suppose that many of these fantasy tales are centred on the Hero myth, which is a young person's rite of passage challenge, and this draws many of the authors into presenting a supporting cast of rather 2-dimensional characters that keep the focus on the main "young" hero actors. The classic myths and fairty tales on this theme do something very similar I think.

I'm not familiar with the other series you mention - I must look them up.

 

[John K]

I disagree with this. But I've lost interest in this conversation now.

I'm sorry you've lost interest Wolly - I only came across your thread a few hours ago and I found it rather intriguing . My feeling is that in a world where magic existed - very great (and potentially unlimited) power in the hands of many individuals and other creatures, and maybe spontaneous magic process happening without an agent at all - then that world would be much more chaotic than our own. I don't mean completely chaotic of course - just more chaotic.
It's a separate issue whether Rowling intended that idea to be contained in the books - that is much more debatable I guess.
Anyway - don't let me drag you back in if you've finished with the thread now - I've probably said all I want to myself as well.

 

[Artisan]

The Triwizard Tournament makes no sense. It is one of the most flaws aspects of Harry Potter that I cannot make sense.

Why on earth would Dumbledore agree to a life threatening tournament that could potentially kill his students. That seems to completely contradict his character. Furthermore, the Lake challenge amplifies this dumb inconsistency even more. Why would Dumbledore agree to have 5 random students face uncertain death by rendering them unconscious and placing them at the bottom of the lake. And all for the sake of 'eternal glory'.

This seems like a major f*** up that still confounds me to this day. I do realise that it's a fantasy. But creating a morally upstanding character that is both immoral and incompetent is just bad writing, no matter what the excuses.

Quite frankly, the entire story of Harry Potter was build on the many screw-ups of adults.
As a result, it is quite popular in fan-fiction to write a story featuring an 'Evil' Dumbledore.
I have to admit that I tend to prefer the more badass fanfics like Harry Crow where there is some degree of competency all around.

Personally I subscribe to the 'Evil' Dumbledore theory in the sense that he's intentionally trying to mold Harry Potter into a martyr and trying to keep the state of affairs the same without progression or recession in the state of things. Quite frankly, the man's too incompetent to not have ulterior motives towards things. Add the fact that he used to be Lovers with Grindelwald and the term 'For the greater good' and you'll probably be unable to not see him as a negative force from now on.

Another degree of adult incompetence, specifically regarding the spectators at the tournament is, that aside from the arena around the dragon, the second task has them look out over the water, whilst everything takes place underwater, making it a very boring task to watch, and the third is an arena overlooking a maze, but judging by the angles from the shots inside the maze, the spectators once more don't see jack, just plants... Without there being any sort of viewing spell applied, it's pointless to even attend those tasks for them

 

[wolly.green]

I'm sorry you've lost interest Wolly - I only came across your thread a few hours ago and I found it rather intriguing . My feeling is that in a world where magic existed - very great (and potentially unlimited) power in the hands of many individuals and other creatures, and maybe spontaneous magic process happening without an agent at all - then that world would be much more chaotic than our own. I don't mean completely chaotic of course - just more chaotic.
It's a separate issue whether Rowling intended that idea to be contained in the books - that is much more debatable I guess.
Anyway - don't let me drag you back in if you've finished with the thread now - I've probably said all I want to myself as well.

Well. I've been doing that nanowrimo challenge. I started writing a story about how far technology can encroach on 'the after life' and ended creating a radical spin on what it means to 'cast a spell'. Its funny, because I did a brainstorm and ended up with a concept thats kinda like Harry Potter, but not nearly as whimsical. Everything kinda fits together nice and.... logically. Couldn't help it, my Ti was on overload lol.

 

[John K]

Well. I've been doing that nanowrimo challenge. I started writing a story about how far technology can encroach on 'the after life' and ended creating a radical spin on what it means to 'cast a spell'. Its funny, because I did a brainstorm and ended up with a concept thats kinda like Harry Potter, but not nearly as whimsical. Everything kinda fits together nice and.... logically. Couldn't help it, my Ti was on overload lol.

That's really impressive Wolly. I saw the thread but decided it wasn't for me - I spend enough time already on computer and I think I'd get into trouble at home if i took something like this on as well. I think if I did try and write a novel I'd end up doing it non-linearly: getting started and finding I want to go back and re-write over and again like Tolkein seems to have done - but without his imagination and talent I'm afraid. Nearer the mark for me would be to make a photobook, taking an image each day and writing a poem to accompany, with some kind of integrating theme to bring it into a unity, then getting it printed up on Blurb, or similar. Again, time and energy are the challenge. I've made several photobooks now and they are very satisfying - the quality of the publication is outstanding these days, though I'd have to leave others to judge the quality of my actual pictures lol.

What happens to your book - is it kept private or will it be available for access when you have finished? I'm a sucker for fantasy literature.

 

[wolly.green]

That's really impressive Wolly. I saw the thread but decided it wasn't for me - I spend enough time already on computer and I think I'd get into trouble at home if i took something like this on as well. I think if I did try and write a novel I'd end up doing it non-linearly: getting started and finding I want to go back and re-write over and again like Tolkein seems to have done - but without his imagination and talent I'm afraid. Nearer the mark for me would be to make a photobook, taking an image each day and writing a poem to accompany, with some kind of integrating theme to bring it into a unity, then getting it printed up on Blurb, or similar. Again, time and energy are the challenge. I've made several photobooks now and they are very satisfying - the quality of the publication is outstanding these days, though I'd have to leave others to judge the quality of my actual pictures lol.

What happens to your book - is it kept private or will it be available for access when you have finished? I'm a sucker for fantasy literature.

Why would you get in trouble? Do you have a wife and kids or something?

Oh well you gotta start somewhere. What are your poems usually about? I tried poetry but I'm not good at it. Also no lol, it's private. I'm just doing it to explore epistemology.

 

[John K]

Why would you get in trouble? Do you have a wife and kids or something?

Oh well you gotta start somewhere. What are your poems usually about? I tried poetry but I'm not good at it. Also no lol, it's private. I'm just doing it to explore epistemology.

Oh yes, i've got a wife and two "kids" - the older of them was 40 earlier this year , and they've both long gone and set up homes for themselves. My wife and I are both pretty introverted - she rather more than me, so if either of us spends long periods of time on computer it can leave the other feeling isolated. It's not just the forum - I can spend a lot of time with photography sites and programs, or with family history databases. I think dedicating time to a novel would be a bit too much. It was the other way round a few years ago - my wife is a very committed Richard III supporter, so when they found his skeleton in that Leicester UK car park I hardly saw her, she was on line so much.

Like your work, my photo books are private too - just for me and family. They are good fun to produce, but they aren't cheap, and though you can actually sell them on the printer web sites, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone willing to pay what they'd cost. I've been very pleased with the response I've had when I've posted some of my photos in the forum - at least some of the guys seem to like them.

Until I joined the forum I'd not written any poetry for about 15 years, and my main artistic outlet these days is photography. I've posted a couple of my original poems in the Share Your Deep Pieces thread, and written some Haikus for the Haiku thread. I tended to use them as emotional or spiritual overflow valves when I was in my teens and early 20s - they got more steady-spiritual later in life. I took a photo of a sad looking rhodedendron flower out of season this autum, and wrote a brief moody poem to go with it: that seems to have been well received in the forum. I think if I went for the sort of project I was toying with, I'd let the picture lead like happened here, then write a piece of poetry that was inspired by the image and its atmosphere.

 

[wolly.green]

Oh yes, i've got a wife and two "kids" - the older of them was 40 earlier this year , and they've both long gone and set up homes for themselves. My wife and I are both pretty introverted - she rather more than me, so if either of us spends long periods of time on computer it can leave the other feeling isolated. It's not just the forum - I can spend a lot of time with photography sites and programs, or with family history databases. I think dedicating time to a novel would be a bit too much. It was the other way round a few years ago - my wife is a very committed Richard III supporter, so when they found his skeleton in that Leicester UK car park I hardly saw her, she was on line so much.

Like your work, my photo books are private too - just for me and family. They are good fun to produce, but they aren't cheap, and though you can actually sell them on the printer web sites, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone willing to pay what they'd cost. I've been very pleased with the response I've had when I've posted some of my photos in the forum - at least some of the guys seem to like them.

Until I joined the forum I'd not written any poetry for about 15 years, and my main artistic outlet these days is photography. I've posted a couple of my original poems in the Share Your Deep Pieces thread, and written some Haikus for the Haiku thread. I tended to use them as emotional or spiritual overflow valves when I was in my teens and early 20s - they got more steady-spiritual later in life. I took a photo of a sad looking rhodedendron flower out of season this autum, and wrote a brief moody poem to go with it: that seems to have been well received in the forum. I think if I went for the sort of project I was toying with, I'd let the picture lead like happened here, then write a piece of poetry that was inspired by the image and its atmosphere.

What the hell. Your kids are older than me.

Its great to have an artistic outlet right? I got my masters in mathematics, but part of me wishes I had studied music instead. Art is just so important to me. Ah well lol.

 

[John K]

What the hell. Your kids are older than me.

Its great to have an artistic outlet right? I got my masters in mathematics, but part of me wishes I had studied music instead. Art is just so important to me. Ah well lol.

It's bloody terrifying - I was only half the age of the elder a couple of years ago, it seems!! I'm 69 next month

I and one of my brothers did maths degrees too, but we come from an artistic family, and our mother who was an artist encouraged us a lot. I'm no good at drawing or painting, but both my brothers are very good at it. Of course photography is my main artistic expression and I wouldn't be without it - it actually links art and technology together in a way I like and I'll quite happily spend hours with the editors and printers as well as outdoors with a camera. There's something very satisfying producing a really good image on screen or on paper.

I liked the maths too but went a bit dry on it in my third year and didn't stay on to do any postgrad study. I ended up managing IS teams in a large pharma, but I've been retired over 9 years now. I often wonder if it would have been better to have done something more arts oriented, but if I'd been good enough to take up photography professionally, for example, it would have killed it for me as a means of relaxed self expression.

It's interesting that you have a yearning towards music - the university I went to offered maths and music as a combination degree. As far as I could see, some of the best concert performers were the maths combo students - one of these guys did a brilliant job as the soloist in Beethoven's 4th piano concerto, which is not one of the easiest - he totally outclassed the rest of the orchestra.