Thoughts about society and our place in it

[Eventhorizon]

It might be obvious but what is the greatest conflict/tension in this situation for you?

What do you need from your brother?

Too many questions?!....sooorry.

I can look at other people and their situations and think x. I can make judgment on the situation, think that this person has given more, taken more, is being unreasonable in expectation etc… This is the same thing we do when we watch a movie. We come to see who the villain is, the victim.
However when looking at things that have to do with me, I either cant or have a very hard time determining where I fall in this respect. Do I expect too much, am I asking for too much, should I expect more. Should I be upset, do I have the moral ground to be upset and say something about it? I just cant do it because I recognize the person making the decision (me) has a vested interest in the outcome.

My brother and I were close or at least, I could always count on him. I tried to help him in the ways I could but though I used to be an overachiever, he has always been one. Hes never needed help, so I helped him dig up his yard, put patios in etc. He has made life decisions that have left him in a good place, at least from my perspective. At this time in his life, he has other people to think about and take care of. I understand that and I am happy for him. The problem lay in my current position in life. I became sick to the point (Ill just say it though I cant prove it) to the point I was dying about 4 ½ years ago. Since then I got lucky and have recovered 75%? It makes everything I do difficult whereas nothing used to be difficult. I don’t have the added benefit of being able to tell people exactly why this is. “See the doctors tests show I shouldn’t be able to move and yet I am…etc.”

Its funny I realized I was about to write a book here. Long story short, when I need the most help in my life I get some, but not what I feel I needed. Do I have a right to question why not more? I think I know why but at the same time it kind of feels like I have been given some food and booted, “Do your best with this, don’t ask for anything else.” Now a days from my perspective its, “don’t talk to me about your problems” when I need another valid perspective about how I can get out of my situation quicker or at all. A perspective from someone who I know and I feel has the best chance of doing that. All of this but, I have been helped in other ways I don’t feel was help in the way needed. Receiving some help is better than nothing. Do I have any right to question anything?

I am on a bad path. The path isnt going to lead to a good place. I cant help but feel more but not difficult help (from my perspective) is needed to avert me from this path. It is something that I hate to say, I really hate to say it because it makes me weak in all the ways I hate, I don’t think I can do it on my own. If the people closest to me refuse to help, Im fairly certain I am screwed. Yes I have tried to explain this but I hit a wall every time. I am left confused, “Don’t you realize what I am telling you? etc”

And so my predicament. Am I not explaining well, do people see me on this path and think well he put himself there he just has to deal with where it takes him? Its not that they don’t care but at the same time I am not going to a good place, am I being taught a lesson if so for what?
So l lean on my brother primarily because I see him as someone who can figure things out, who has made good choices. So I get none of this information that I seek, instead I get money which I never asked for. What I have asked for I don’t get, information a different perspective.

That’s about it, I don’t know what more to say.

Thanks for taking an interest.

 

[muir]

I think modern society takes a lot out of people. Its not all about money although a lot of the time for a lot of people that is a big part of it

It is a society where we often rent out our time to others whether clients or employers; combined with that we rent out our effort/energies. The 3 things that are often in short supply are: time, money & energy

Just to get around we have to move on overcrowded transport systems in a system that has deliberately avoided localism

There are constant challenges and pitfalls and even living itself comes with expenses for such basics as energy and water and waste disposal...all things our ancestors disposed of for free

This is on the grid living...it comes with costs and not all of them are financial

Often those that are money rich are time poor. There is often a trade off or sacrifice for anything we do. Because the system is ruthlessly geared towards profit with waste as an inevitable by-product we are often put in postitions that make us feel like we are compromising ourselves in some way

A lot of people are just managing to keep their heads above water whether it is in financial terms or terms of obligations, time usage, energy useage or any of the many pressures modern life places on people

Combined with that we are bombarded with images of material success on TV, magazines or billboards because our insecurity is needed to keep the wheels of consumerism turning which inevitably brings psychological consequences because humans as social animals often compare themselves to their peers to gauge where they feel their place in the world should be

Is independance the answer? For some it definately will be whilst for others they thrive on co-dependancy. Its a case of finding what works for you. For me i value my freedom of movement and of choice and my financial and even emotional independance. Others are more integrated and i place no judgement on either approach...different things work for different people

But something is clearly knawing at you. Are you able to explain a little more about what information it is that you are looking for? Is it related to direction in life or how to go about things or something else? Is it even definable?

 

[Eventhorizon]

@ Muir I dont know how to explain it better than I have. Did you read my last post? Thats about as close as I can get.

 

[La Sagna]

I am on a bad path. The path isnt going to lead to a good place. I cant help but feel more but not difficult help (from my perspective) is needed to avert me from this path. It is something that I hate to say, I really hate to say it because it makes me weak in all the ways I hate, I don’t think I can do it on my own. If the people closest to me refuse to help, Im fairly certain I am screwed. Yes I have tried to explain this but I hit a wall every time. I am left confused, “Don’t you realize what I am telling you? etc”

And so my predicament. Am I not explaining well, do people see me on this path and think well he put himself there he just has to deal with where it takes him? Its not that they don’t care but at the same time I am not going to a good place, am I being taught a lesson if so for what?
So l lean on my brother primarily because I see him as someone who can figure things out, who has made good choices. So I get none of this information that I seek, instead I get money which I never asked for. What I have asked for I don’t get, information a different perspective.

This is why we have family therapists. People have a very difficult time understanding another person's perspective, and when there is a vested interest in the well-being of another as well as a shared history with all it's ups and downs I believe it is even more difficult to see through all that and be objective. I am speaking both of your brother and of you here. You both seem to be having a difficult time putting yourself in the other person's shoes. This is why open non-judgemental communication is always best but most people cannot do this well, in many cases perhaps men even more so.

Likely your brother doesn't see you or your situation the way you do. Who is right or wrong, probably neither really, it's a matter of perspective and usually only time will tell whether something was the right thing or the wrong thing to do. Your personal take on things aren't 'wrong' they are your perspective on something very personal and they are your reality so nobody can tell you you are wrong about how you feel. However, sometimes people who care for us see things completely differently and believe that what you need is not what you believe you need. They may be right or they may be wrong but even though they can't be totally objective if they care about you they can probably be somewhat more objective than you are just because they have an outside view of things. This means that if somebody truly cares about you and have good intentions then their take on your situation and what you need should probably be taken into consideration. Perhaps he has some insight that you don't. It's too bad if he's not sharing this with you but perhaps he feels he is protecting you by doing this.

 

[Eventhorizon]

This is why we have family therapists. People have a very difficult time understanding another person's perspective, and when there is a vested interest in the well-being of another as well as a shared history with all it's ups and downs I believe it is even more difficult to see through all that and be objective. I am speaking both of your brother and of you here. You both seem to be having a difficult time putting yourself in the other person's shoes. This is why open non-judgemental communication is always best but most people cannot do this well, in many cases perhaps men even more so.

Likely your brother doesn't see you or your situation the way you do. Who is right or wrong, probably neither really, it's a matter of perspective and usually only time will tell whether something was the right thing or the wrong thing to do. Your personal take on things aren't 'wrong' they are your perspective on something very personal and they are your reality so nobody can tell you you are wrong about how you feel. However, sometimes people who care for us see things completely differently and believe that what you need is not what you believe you need. They may be right or they may be wrong but even though they can't be totally objective if they care about you they can probably be somewhat more objective than you are just because they have an outside view of things. This means that if somebody truly cares about you and have good intentions then their take on your situation and what you need should probably be taken into consideration. Perhaps he has some insight that you don't. It's too bad if he's not sharing this with you but perhaps he feels he is protecting you by doing this.

Id have to agree. It doesnt seem to be an issue for him. Honestly it likely wouldn't be an issue for me except for the fact of where I am likely going to end up. I kind of feel like I am on the edge of a cliff asking for help but being ignored or, being tossed a rope that isnt tied at the other end.

Im sure it will work out one way or the other.

 

[muir]

@ Muir I dont know how to explain it better than I have. Did you read my last post? Thats about as close as I can get.

Sorry man what i was kind of trying to get at is that sometimes when people seem to be doing ok they are actually not doing as well as it might appear on the surface

You perceive your brother to be strong and successful but he might be caught up in his own troubles and struggles. if he's managing a family he might have his hands full

I think modern life lessens our capacity for helping others in many ways because we have less left over for others after keeping ourselves afloat if you know what i mean?

It sounds like your brother really cares about you but i don't know to what extent he is able to help in the way you're needing at the moment. So you know don't be too hard on him and don't be hard on yourself...you don't owe him anything but your love and he might be doing all he can at the moment or at least all he thinks he can; is it possible to talk things through with him?

 

[Wildfire]

Im sure it will work out one way or the other.

Me too.

It would be nice if family could be there for us, no matter what, but they really do have limits that span the spectrums of both resources and understanding. So does society at large I’m afraid. And then there is the fun fact that we tend to relate to society in a manner similar to the way we relate to our family, so when family support comes to an end often times we have little to no expectation that our needs might be met outside of it.

It sounds like your brother has done what he felt he could do and that it really has been quite valuable. But at the same time it’s true that what he has done wasn’t enough in terms of meeting very legitimate needs, and it’s important that you don’t feel guilty for having them, or unworthy of having them met. In fact, allowing your brother his perspective doesn’t have to mean disallowing your needs, and your brother’s denial doesn’t mean that you’ve done something wrong. But all of this does suggest that you’re feeling like you’re on your own in ways you’ve never been on your own before, and in many ways you might even be feeling kind of abandoned.

I get what you’re saying about needing to find your footing again, and why that’s most important to you. I think it would be for me too. And I don’t blame you for wanting to make sense of your brother’s actions and resolve some of the uncertainty around your relationship, but I suspect that aspects of this might remain a mystery for a very long time and it could become a place where you end up feeling stuck. At this point you might consider that “stuck-ness” is usually experienced when we’re in an “either or” dilemma and that the way out of it is a move toward “both and” thinking. In other words, both are true, and there is more to this than I/we initially thought.

I feel strongly compelled to add that it’s always important for us to allow ourselves our feelings so that our inner compass can work in the way it was meant to. While it’s true that this doesn’t mean that we allow ourselves to take action guided solely by them, we do have to give them their place, but I suspect there might be areas where you’re not quite comfortable doing this. So go ahead and feel your pain and anger and sadness so that you can get the lay of the land, find a path, and figure out what forward looks like. Just remember to wrap it all up in forgiveness, leaving room for all of us, yoursef and your brother included, to basically be sort of perpetually “under construction”.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Me too.

It would be nice if family could be there for us, no matter what, but they really do have limits that span the spectrums of both resources and understanding. So does society at large I’m afraid. And then there is the fun fact that we tend to relate to society in a manner similar to the way we relate to our family, so when family support comes to an end often times we have little to no expectation that our needs might be met outside of it.

It sounds like your brother has done what he felt he could do and that it really has been quite valuable. But at the same time it’s true that what he has done wasn’t enough in terms of meeting very legitimate needs, and it’s important that you don’t feel guilty for having them, or unworthy of having them met. In fact, allowing your brother his perspective doesn’t have to mean disallowing your needs, and your brother’s denial doesn’t mean that you’ve done something wrong. But all of this does suggest that you’re feeling like you’re on your own in ways you’ve never been on your own before, and in many ways you might even be feeling kind of abandoned.

I get what you’re saying about needing to find your footing again, and why that’s most important to you. I think it would be for me too. And I don’t blame you for wanting to make sense of your brother’s actions and resolve some of the uncertainty around your relationship, but I suspect that aspects of this might remain a mystery for a very long time and it could become a place where you end up feeling stuck. At this point you might consider that “stuck-ness” is usually experienced when we’re in an “either or” dilemma and that the way out of it is a move toward “both and” thinking. In other words, both are true, and there is more to this than I/we initially thought.

I feel strongly compelled to add that it’s always important for us to allow ourselves our feelings so that our inner compass can work in the way it was meant to. While it’s true that this doesn’t mean that we allow ourselves to take action guided solely by them, we do have to give them their place, but I suspect there might be areas where you’re not quite comfortable doing this. So go ahead and feel your pain and anger and sadness so that you can get the lay of the land, find a path, and figure out what forward looks like. Just remember to wrap it all up in forgiveness, leaving room for all of us, yourself and your brother included, to basically be sort of perpetually “under construction”.

That was unbelievably insightful. Who are you?

 

[Wildfire]

That was unbelievably insightful. Who are you?

You know, when I first spotted the thread title my thoughts started to head in one direction and when I started reading the thread they started to head in another, but I also found that I could relate to what you’re going through. But I haven’t been hanging out around here very long, and I don’t know you, so I hope it’s okay that I just jumped in and shared what I did.

 

[Eventhorizon]

You know, when I first spotted the thread title my thoughts started to head in one direction and when I started reading the thread they started to head in another, but I also found that I could relate to what you’re going through. But I haven’t been hanging out around here very long, and I don’t know you, so I hope it’s okay that I just jumped in and shared what I did.

No problem at all. "Who are you" just meant that your response seemed a bit more thoughtful than normal.

 

[Wildfire]

No problem at all. "Who are you" just meant that your response seemed a bit more thoughtful than normal.

Okay good. For the record, I was really tempted to say “I’m Batman” but wasn’t sure how that would go over.

:tongue1:

 

[Deleted member 10171]

[MENTION=8603]Eventhorizon[/MENTION] - I was wondering how you're doing since you started this thread?

I have heaps (well one or two) more questions to ask if you think it would be helpful - let me know and I'll throw them at you? :lol:

 

[Eventhorizon]

[MENTION=8603]Eventhorizon[/MENTION] - I was wondering how you're doing since you started this thread?

I have heaps (well one or two) more questions to ask if you think it would be helpful - let me know and I'll throw them at you? :lol:

Hmmmm... well it has not been that long but... I suppose right now as I think of it, I have this feeling that people change for various reasons. I suspect my brother is in a situation where his family takes precedence (as it should) over other family. He has helped me more than anyone else would, just not in the way I think would have been most beneficial. So for that I am greatly indebted to him. However, he also wont have conversations about things I feel as if I need him to. This still confuses me.

So, I am not in a good place. I think my mental fortitude is slipping. Since becoming sick I have been left with things that have changed my life substantially. I dont have a lot of energy, I cant do the things I used to love because my joints dont feel good when I try them, I am dizzy constantly. All of these things add up to turn me into a different person in a very short amount of time. Talking to my brother seems to be a thing to do because he could say something like, "Yes I see this is happening to you and it sucks. Have you tried x? Why not? You need to talk to your doc about x, why have you not yet? Whats taking so long." Get the point? But that doesnt happen. Its something I think I need from family but dont get.

The effect this has is that it causes me to think. People are themselves, perhaps my brother subconsciously doesn't like what he sees happening to me and is pushing me away. Hes always been a little off in the empathy department. I think this is amusing because of all the short comings I claim for myself.

Ah... Typing about this is difficult. It doesnt really do any good and if I do it long enough all that I am going to relay to you is how weak I am. I think anyone looking at how I am living my life now would see the marks of depression. But, I dont believe its depression that just happens, in this instance its physical distress that leads to things like, living like a slob in my eyes where I used to be super neat and tidy. I get sick moving around in enclosed spaces so cleaning up after myself is difficult to say the least. Living in a dump, makes me more depressed and it just keeps spiraling from there.

Very complex, many things happening and having to learn to live a way I am not used too is difficult. If I was healthy and strong, this wouldnt be near as much of an issue. As it is now, I think my course is to let my family go and see where I end up. Better for them in the long run and I have to learn how to live this way on my own anyway.

I still fight and will till my last breath. Its just I dont have the energy any more to fight tooth and nail. Some of my defenses are gone. My only concern is for my cats at this point. Otherwise I could weather where ever I end up.

More than you wanted? Less? If more I apologize. I type my thoughts as they flow. Thank you for taking an interest though.

 

[Deleted member 10171]

Hello [MENTION=8603]Eventhorizon[/MENTION] - sometimes we all need a bit of an encouraging prod or a prompt to get us thinking and to help move forward - hence all the questions.

Your response made me think about my own relationships with my brothers. I used to be close to my younger brother as I found older brother to be quite distant & unsociable (not easy to talk to). In the last 5 years there's been a complete role reversal ie younger brother has shut himself off from the whole family but I have grown closer to my older brother (he has begun to make himself more vulnerable by opening up etc). As you said - it is about accepting that people do change for various reasons.

You have mentioned a few times the need to have a conversation with your brother - it sounds vitally important for you to do so and I would feel the same if I was in your position. It's just a shame as it seems highly unlikely that this opportunity is going to present itself to you (in the very near future anyway).

You wrote, "I type my thoughts as they flow." Have you considered putting your thoughts on an email/letter and sending it to your brother? At least with this avenue you've had a chance to get things off your chest & find some kind of compromise? If you are seriously considering this option then it’s essential that a mindset without any expectations is adopted (ie accepting that you may have to continue “living with the confusion” of not knowing why your brother won’t have conversations) and that life has to continue regardless of the outcome.

I like to think that we all have the capacity to empathise – we just have different ways of expressing it or not – some people simply struggle with knowing how to. The absence of empathy from others shouldn’t detract from our own ability to receive empathy from ourselves.

What do you mean, “I still fight and will till my last breath. Its just I dont have the energy any more to fight tooth and nail.” I understand that you are physically not well but do you mean no longer fighting in relation to your family? Can you elaborate what you mean that your defences are gone?

Also just to position/clarify things – I’m half British (culturally we are known for our politeness and respectful privacy of others space etc) but the other half of me is incredibly persistent. So please do say if you just want time out to think and to hold off with all the questions as I can appreciate that not everyone enjoys the thrill of being pressed like I do.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Hello [MENTION=8603]Eventhorizon[/MENTION] - sometimes we all need a bit of an encouraging prod or a prompt to get us thinking and to help move forward - hence all the questions.


Also just to position/clarify things – I’m half British (culturally we are known for our politeness and respectful privacy of others space etc) but the other half of me is incredibly persistent. So please do say if you just want time out to think and to hold off with all the questions as I can appreciate that not everyone enjoys the thrill of being pressed like I do.

Not being able to fight tooth and nail in many ways this means I am giving up. Example, I live like a slob these days, I hate it but yet I do. Its not a mental thing, I just literally get dizzy and sick moving in enclosed spaces. Living this way has a mental effect on me.
I have tried every communication route I can think of. Phone, text, email, face to face. Face to face is annoying because my brother “Talks over” anything he doesn’t want to hear. Yes we can talk about things that don’t matter, sports, the weather etc but nothing else. If it sounds confusing, that’s because it is.
Half British huh? Cool.
Thank you for taking an interest.

 

[Deleted member 10171]

[MENTION=8603]Eventhorizon[/MENTION] - Oh biscuits! It looks like you have tried every route and it's probably wise to back off.

Well when I've come to the end of myself - there's only one solution left and that's to PRAY!

I'm not sure what your personal standing is with faith, belief, religion, spirituality, God etc (apologies I don't often get the chance to read all the sporadic posts on this forum purely due to lack of time) but I will definitely be praying for you with a hope & expectation that there will be a shift in your circumstances. I hope that's OK?

 

[Eventhorizon]

[MENTION=8603]Eventhorizon[/MENTION] - Oh biscuits! It looks like you have tried every route and it's probably wise to back off.

Well when I've come to the end of myself - there's only one solution left and that's to PRAY!

I'm not sure what your personal standing is with faith, belief, religion, spirituality, God etc (apologies I don't often get the chance to read all the sporadic posts on this forum purely due to lack of time) but I will definitely be praying for you with a hope & expectation that there will be a shift in your circumstances. I hope that's OK?

That I am in anyones thoughts is "ok". Thank you for having concern enough to do so

 

[Deleted member 10171]

:bounce: Hey [MENTION=8603]Eventhorizon[/MENTION] - keep in touch and let me know how you get on. All the very best.