Ti dom in an Fe world

[Raccoon Love]

Look, Satya, I'm an INTP on this INFJ forum, happily married to an INFJ for 34 years. I think MBTI can be taken too far. It's not an exact science (if a science at all) and people are incredibly diverse even if they share the same four letters. As Dirty Harry said, "A man has to know his limitations." Just because one has limitations doesn't mean they can't be overcome. Sure, we INTP's can be oblivious to emotion, but there is a logic to emotion just like there is a logic to facts. Over time, one can realize that data are data, whether they come from facts or feelings and such information is useful in dealing with the world. I would posit that an INTP has more to learn on this forum than on an INTP forum, such as INTP Central, where people seem to reinforce their weaknesses to their own detriment. Hopefully, as one grows older, one becomes wiser. Wisdom is understanding the world and appreciating its diversity, an appreciation which is closer to the truth than the prosaic limitations of the immature INTP.

Very well said, I admire this post.

 

[Phoenix Down]

I'm not gonna lie, sometimes it sucks to be an INTP member of an INFJ forum. Fe and Ti simply do not get along very well. Members with Fe seek to harmonize with their fellow member and are sensitive to their sensibilities. By contrast, Ti members are more interested in finding and expressing the truth, and if that offends someone, then tough cookies.

There really isn't much that can be done to compromise between these judging functions and the battle is even internal.

An INFJ who is pissed at an INTP for how they expressed their views will often be torn between the Fe sentiment of how insensitive the INTP was being and the Ti sentiment of the truth of INTP's argument. The end result is the INFJ will usually say that the INTP is right or at least entitled to their perspective, but they need to be nicer about it.

By contrast the INTP who is pissed at an INFJ for their sensibilities will often be torn between the Ti sentiment of expressing what they believe is the truth and the Fe sentiment of feeling bad when they do hurt someone's feelings. The end result is the INTP will usually say that the INFJ's views should still be respected even if they aren't rational but the INFJ needs to be less sensitive.

So you end up with this assumption, both internal and external, that INTPs need to be "nicer" and INFJs need to be "less sensitive". When in actuality, the priority of the INTP is to find truth and the priority of the INFJ is to harmonize. INTPs value competence and INFJs value peace.

If an INTP senses that someone holds a belief that is false and potentially harmful, then that is incompetence and the INTP is driven at all costs to address it, even attack it. Incompetence and ignorance are the mortal enemies of INTPs and the perceived cause of all evil. The more the INFJ chooses to protect the belief, the more caustic and emotional the INTP is likely to get in trying to destroy it. The INTP usually isn't interested in attacking the individual who holds the belief, only the belief itself, but INFJs are often very attached to their beliefs.

Given this pattern of interaction, what course of action can the INTP and INFJ take? Obviously, by their very nature,, INTPs are not going to back down when they encounter a potentially dangerous or irrational belief. And by their very nature, INFJs are not going to back down when they feel their views must be respected even if they aren't based on rational or evidence.

Can the two types compromise in this situation, or is it hopeless?

What are you talking about?

ENTP= Ne Ti Fe Si
I win.


But I'll stop being useless...

In my experience I find it best to avoid confrontations that will result in both parties involved developing the insatiable urge to dig pirrahna filled moats around the other's home. Its not healthy...

An obvious sign that says "don't go there sistah" is that defensive tone (or a Z snap)... I find a relevant observational joke (or other if you can't really think of anything to mock at the moment) makes a great segway into a new less hurtful conversation.

This might be hard for an INTP to do, but just trust your INFJ friends... They have a reasons for their beliefs, just like you do... just because their reasoning is incomprehensible, doesn't mean it has no merit. .. If you can challenge yourself see it as an opportunity for growth, then do it!... and if you can't... Just focus on how freaking adorable they are.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

I'm not gonna lie, sometimes it sucks to be an INTP member of an INFJ forum. Fe and Ti simply do not get along very well. Members with Fe seek to harmonize with their fellow member and are sensitive to their sensibilities. By contrast, Ti members are more interested in finding and expressing the truth, and if that offends someone, then tough cookies.

There really isn't much that can be done to compromise between these judging functions and the battle is even internal.

An INFJ who is pissed at an INTP for how they expressed their views will often be torn between the Fe sentiment of how insensitive the INTP was being and the Ti sentiment of the truth of INTP's argument. The end result is the INFJ will usually say that the INTP is right or at least entitled to their perspective, but they need to be nicer about it.

By contrast the INTP who is pissed at an INFJ for their sensibilities will often be torn between the Ti sentiment of expressing what they believe is the truth and the Fe sentiment of feeling bad when they do hurt someone's feelings. The end result is the INTP will usually say that the INFJ's views should still be respected even if they aren't rational but the INFJ needs to be less sensitive.

So you end up with this assumption, both internal and external, that INTPs need to be "nicer" and INFJs need to be "less sensitive". When in actuality, the priority of the INTP is to find truth and the priority of the INFJ is to harmonize. INTPs value competence and INFJs value peace.

If an INTP senses that someone holds a belief that is false and potentially harmful, then that is incompetence and the INTP is driven at all costs to address it, even attack it. Incompetence and ignorance are the mortal enemies of INTPs and the perceived cause of all evil. The more the INFJ chooses to protect the belief, the more caustic and emotional the INTP is likely to get in trying to destroy it. The INTP usually isn't interested in attacking the individual who holds the belief, only the belief itself, but INFJs are often very attached to their beliefs.

Given this pattern of interaction, what course of action can the INTP and INFJ take? Obviously, by their very nature,, INTPs are not going to back down when they encounter a potentially dangerous or irrational belief. And by their very nature, INFJs are not going to back down when they feel their views must be respected even if they aren't based on rational or evidence.

Can the two types compromise in this situation, or is it hopeless?

I love this post - it summarises our conflicts so well. I am VERY INFJ in most of the functions - I am guessing (presuming) you are VERY INTP.

I don't think the situation need be hopeless. In every conflict there is a kind of "good form" that can be observed (speaking from my need for peace and respect). There is also a kind of "good content" which understands and correctly represents the conflicting positions (speaking to a need for INTP need for truth).

A prerequisite for constructive debate between INFJs and INTPs seems to require these two things: courtesy and respect; attention and honesty.

So, positively observing courtesy, respect, attention and honesty both should avoid their opposites: Name calling, insults, ridiculing, unfair stereotyping will not help the INFJ. Misrepresentation, twisting of meaning/words, dodging questions, etc. might not help the INTP.

 

[Tamagochi]

Interestingly I tend to get quite well with INTPs in RL Only when online and under the mask of anonymity that things can become ugly.

 

[Morgain]

I think people (of any type) should always take into acount that there are always different ways to look at and solve a problem. T types may like it more to solve a problem with logic and try to find the truth by validating it with reason and science. While an F type may rather accept a truth from someone else to keep the peace or validate a truth because "it feels right". If you can't respect the other way of "thinking" or even declare that it is completely wrong, than there is no way that you can interact with the person using the opposite function. Just be respectful, know how the other person thinks and meet somewhere in the middle

When I interact with T's I will only discuss things in a scientific way, what I do at work all the time. But that is not always the way I look at a topic. I can look at quantum physics both in a scientific and a spiritual way and I believe the "truth" is a combination of both. But with a T I will only discuss it in a scientific way because I know that they will never accept the spiritual way. The only thing I ask from a T is not to ridicule me because my truths are not completely based on logic. It is disrespectful and arrogant. If a T can't at least accept that aspect of me, than just ignore it instead of ridiculing it or trying to prove to me I'm wrong (what I trully hate) ... In return I will be accepting of the T's behaviour and always take into account that he/she doesn't necessairly ment to hurt my feelings. I can understand that emotions and social harmony are not in the top 3 on a T's agenda and I will accept that and try to live with it.

There are multiple ways to look at a certain problem and every way has its value, that is a fact and I'll never compromise on that.

 

[Norton]

When I interact with T's I will only discuss things in a scientific way, what I do at work all the time. But that is not always the way I look at a topic. I can look at quantum physics both in a scientific and a spiritual way and I believe the "truth" is a combination of both. But with a T I will only discuss it in a scientific way because I know that they will never accept the spiritual way...

I've often thought that theological arguments for God or a higher spiritual being are best made at the fringes of science where logic breaks down and things don't make sense as they do in the sensate environment. Quantum physics, the "big bang," relativity, etc., are weird and strange, and beyond our rational experiences. Only through long, diligent study can one develop a useful intuition about such things, something few of us do. Interestingly, if you want to study these things, you have to think very hard to feel great wonder. So, if you want to be transported beyond the mundane into the strange and mysterious, if you want to achieve a spiritual sense of wonder about the universe, these are good places to go.

 

[Morgain]

I've often thought that theological arguments for God or a higher spiritual being are best made at the fringes of science where logic breaks down and things don't make sense as they do in the sensate environment. Quantum physics, the "big bang," relativity, etc., are weird and strange, and beyond our rational experiences. Only through long, diligent study can one develop a useful intuition about such things, something few of us do. Interestingly, if you want to study these things, you have to think very hard to feel great wonder. So, if you want to be transported beyond the mundane into the strange and mysterious, if you want to achieve a spiritual sense of wonder about the universe, these are good places to go.

if I understood you correctly I completely agree. I always thought that quantum physics is the place where science and spirituality meets. It proves very well that our logic and classic scientific way to approach the world does not suffice. It is good enough for the every day life but if you go behound that into the micro or macro world, those laws are to primitive. And indeed, studying quantum physics is a good way to realise that our logical laws and our view on the world is not as correct and fundamental as we like to believe.

Maybe we will come to the point that quantum physics can prove what spirituality has claimed for decenia. Any way I think concidering the truth to be a combination of the thinking (scientificaly) and feeling (spirituality) is the best way to approach the world...

I think quantum physics is a good topic where NT's and NF's can find eachother and help eachother in a better understanding of the matter!

 

[Norton]

Any way I think concidering the truth to be a combination of the thinking (scientificaly) and feeling (spirituality) is the best way to approach the world...

I think quantum physics is a good topic where NT's and NF's can find eachother and help eachother in a better understanding of the matter!

I agree.