Trump Promotes Torture

invisible said:
Honestly I have zero kind of personal investment in the personality of Obama. I fully recognise that the problems are entrenched and resistant to change. To cause changes in society takes persistence and dedication to change, courage and fight. Did you hear, in Australia, this was the 40th anniversary year of the gay and lesbian Sydney rights march. The first time it was marched, the protesters were arrested and held in prison... 40 years later marriage has been legalised in Australia... that's how long it took and how much persistence and lobbying to cause change... it didn't happen overnight. So what... marchers should have just quit because the problem is entrenched and resistant to change? Just blame the system and the entrenchment of the problem for the unwillingness to care about dedication to causing change?

I also fully understand that voters would say things to themselves like "I don't actually want people tortured, I just don't want to vote for Hilary". But that's what I meant about how social disasters get caused. Actually, it's not of any consequence that they say to themselves that they don't want people to get tortured, because they're casting their vote in support of torture.

I don't think that voters are unintelligent and incapable of understanding the importance of what they are voting for, or hopelessly susceptible to propaganda and media interference. Or, even if many of them do have this problem, many others of them are perfectly intelligent and capable of understanding. There are so many people who should know better and who are capable of knowing better and capable of understanding the importance of concepts of human rights, who understand what torture is and what it means, who still voted for Trump. They supported torture with their vote. It's not OK.

I don't really care about whether or not the official record states that torture regulations have been loosened. This is US military. The official position stated is that torture is permissible. There's no need to loosen regulations. It's permitted. People can be deprived of their clothing in freezing conditions in detention, without any question of whether it is right or wrong or even whether it is torture or not torture, because torture is stated as permitted by the administration. It's just "inappropriate treatment". Regrettable. No investigation necessary.

I realise how the popular vote works vs the electoral college. America is not a true democracy. But votes are not meaningless, voters are still voting for electoral college. That's why it's important to hold voters accountable and push harder to make every vote count for the electoral college.

I understand as you say that you have given up hope, I differ. I expect people to be responsible and accountable about their voting and stop making lame bullshit excuses about why they voted for torture, and stop pretending like votes for torture aren't causative of torture.
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While I don’t agree at this point I will continue to think about what you’ve said and I appreciate your taking the time and effort to respond earnestly and articulately.

Fwiw I haven’t given up hope for change. I just don’t agree about the avenue to take, though I can only speculate as to a better direction.

Good debates are still draining to me, and I’ll have to set this down at present.
 
Sloe Djinn said:
I don't think that terrible policy/conditions of ICE detention facilities are necessarily a direct result of that. That is of course debatable, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that his stance emboldens or emboldened someone who might craft policy or engage in behavior that encourages or constitutes torture. As such the inhumane, undisputedly condemnable, and inexcusable (regardless of the word used to define them) conditions and policy may amount to torture if enacted to punish or discourage detainees.

In lieu of direct evidence in this particular discussion (and only in the context of the article recently referenced) I think that ICE detention centers have sucked well before Trump arrived, and I’m not sure that they’ve gotten any worse as a direct result of anything that he’s said or done.

Sure it’s crazy that he endorsed it, and that he has publicly endorsed it, and anyone feel free to clarify if I got my details mixed up, but I thought he was specifically endorsing enhanced interrogation as opposed to tormenting ICE detainees. This crosses over into another separate issue, and instead of jumping down that rabbit hole I’ll just say that I don’t agree with the use of torture by our government for any reason, but I still think that in terms of interrogation and detainment of spies and enemy combatants, the use of torture would continue no matter who was president and whether or not they publicly endorse it. That’s part of the “benefit” of having black sites and contractors.

Back to the matter of detainees this brings me to what @invisible mentioned about people who voted for Trump. I just don’t think it’s fair to blame or judge everyone who voted for him based upon the plight of the detainees. I will again stress that I am appalled by what they were and are subjected to, but this is not something that began with the Trump administration and I honestly don’t think there would be that much difference were Hillary, Bernie, or any other candidate in office. Illegal immigrants would still be getting detained, some unfairly and uncompassionately. They would still be subjected to terrible conditions, likely both felons and people who just have illegal status. The proportions may differ with Trump but it would still be happening with anyone else. I would be interested to explore areas of influence such as ICE policy, prison administration, use for-profit prisons, budgeting, oversight, etc. I don’t think (and again I am willing to be convinced otherwise) that such conditions are due to a direct order from the administration to maltreat detainees. It needs to be fixed but I don’t think it’s fair to point a finger specifically at Trump supporters to say this is their fault. I think that it only serves to promote divisiveness. The blame lies on the US as a whole.
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I don't really disagree. I think he emboldens some real sickos but he's not the root of it.
 
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James said:
The Universal Declaration of human rights, The Geneva convention, and I believe the eighth amendment of the US constitution. Cruel and unusual punishment ?

President Trump himself said having taken legal advice, he wouldn't pursue it. I think even if it was legal, it would be wrong and counter productive.
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The Vikings apparently thought it was a great honor to be sacrficed so that their people could prosper in coming years. The Mayans killed countless people, prisoners and citizens of their society as sacrifices.
Are we saying that ending someones life is better than torture?

One day a group of people gain power. They start making rules and you can either live by them, leave or die depending on what they decide so long as they remain in power. It doesnt matter if you agree with them or not. Unless you gain the power to confront them. There is no right and wrong unless you have the power to back up your conviction. Everything that is "illegal" today may change tommorow. So whether something is legal has nothing to do with it being right or wrong. And whether it is right or wrong is only based on the power of the person making the claims to support those claims.
 
acd said:
He's a complete barbarian. He brings out the absolute worst in America. He stands for the worst of America. I'm legitimately afraid for my child's future that this megalomaniac demagogue could be president. Everything he says and stands for is garbage and I'm embarrassed to be American because of him.
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I think Trump stands for America and wants to see it thrive. He wants whats best for it. I wont speak for his character as a whole but I will say he has Americas best interest at heart.
I just wanted you to know I adamantly disagree with your post.
 
acd said:
He's a complete barbarian. He brings out the absolute worst in America. He stands for the worst of America. I'm legitimately afraid for my child's future that this megalomaniac demagogue could be president. Everything he says and stands for is garbage and I'm embarrassed to be American because of him.
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Torture is terrible.

ANYWAY, it seems like this is more personal and petty than just the policy of torture, no?
 
Eventhorizon said:
The Vikings apparently thought it was a great honor to be sacrficed so that their people could prosper in coming years. The Mayans killed countless people, prisoners and citizens of their society as sacrifices.
Are we saying that ending someones life is better than torture?

One day a group of people gain power. They start making rules and you can either live by them, leave or die depending on what they decide so long as they remain in power. It doesnt matter if you agree with them or not. Unless you gain the power to confront them. There is no right and wrong unless you have the power to back up your conviction. Everything that is "illegal" today may change tommorow. So whether something is legal has nothing to do with it being right or wrong. And whether it is right or wrong is only based on the power of the person making the claims to support those claims.
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Ending someone's life might be better than torture
 
Eventhorizon said:
The Vikings apparently thought it was a great honor to be sacrficed so that their people could prosper in coming years. The Mayans killed countless people,
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You're just gonna torture me until I agree with you. No fair, dude. No fair.

This is all down to America winning that "she dreams" soccer yesterday isn't it ? You beat England, but only by one goal.

We'll do a deal with the Vikings and the Mayans, and come at you, lol.

There's a new radio series starting this evening on BBC radio 4, its the last hitchhikers book. But you've upset me, so I'm not telling you about it.
 
James said:
You're just gonna torture me until I agree with you. No fair, dude. No fair.

This is all down to America winning that "she dreams" soccer yesterday isn't it ? You beat England, but only by one goal.

We'll do a deal with the Vikings and the Mayans, and come at you, lol.

There's a new radio series starting this evening on BBC radio 4, its the last hitchhikers book. But you've upset me, so I'm not telling you about it.
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could I hear?
 
James said:
You're just gonna torture me until I agree with you. No fair, dude. No fair.

This is all down to America winning that "she dreams" soccer yesterday isn't it ? You beat England, but only by one goal.

We'll do a deal with the Vikings and the Mayans, and come at you, lol.

There's a new radio series starting this evening on BBC radio 4, its the last hitchhikers book. But you've upset me, so I'm not telling you about it.
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If you ask Alexa what the answer is to life the universe and everything is she says.....
 
Eventhorizon said:
The Vikings apparently thought it was a great honor to be sacrficed so that their people could prosper in coming years. The Mayans killed countless people, prisoners and citizens of their society as sacrifices.
Are we saying that ending someones life is better than torture?

One day a group of people gain power. They start making rules and you can either live by them, leave or die depending on what they decide so long as they remain in power. It doesnt matter if you agree with them or not. Unless you gain the power to confront them. There is no right and wrong unless you have the power to back up your conviction. Everything that is "illegal" today may change tommorow. So whether something is legal has nothing to do with it being right or wrong. And whether it is right or wrong is only based on the power of the person making the claims to support those claims.
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Okay Mad Max...
A quick death is actually better than torture.
If I had to choose...not a hard choice.
 
Eventhorizon said:
But I am very ok with torture for punishment. Say for instance the pos who ran planes into the buildings on 911 did not die. I know its crazy but lets just say they didnt. Id be completely ok with them being burned alive slowly in the middle of Times Square while it was televised. You could start at their feet burning off their toes one by one. Then their feet ect. Youd want to leave their eyes and ears intact so they could see all smiling people and hear them cheering. All the while making sure they stayed conscious through the whole thing. Their screams would be like music. It might even make the top ten.
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Eventhorizon said:
leave their eyes and ears intact so they could see all smiling people and hear them cheering
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When I read this all I could think about was 'how could you look a human being in the eye while smiling and cheering and seeing them being burnt alive'
how could you, how could anyone.
look into the eyes of someone who is being burnt alive, and just stand by.
Your just saying that, you couldn't - no one could without disabeling a part of their soul.
 
Littlelissa said:
When I read this all I could think about was 'how could you look a human being in the eye while smiling and cheering and seeing them being burnt alive'
how could you, how could anyone.
look into the eyes of someone who is being burnt alive, and just stand by.
Your just saying that, you couldn't - no one could without disabeling a part of their soul.
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What soul?
Fucking loathsome and vile is what it is.
You put that kind of negativity out there and it’s gonna come back and smack you in the head.
 
Littlelissa said:
When I read this all I could think about was 'how could you look a human being in the eye while smiling and cheering and seeing them being burnt alive'
how could you, how could anyone.
look into the eyes of someone who is being burnt alive, and just stand by.
Your just saying that, you couldn't - no one could without disabeling a part of their soul.
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I doubt he could. I think it's just angry words. Someone who did not have any empathy would not be traumatized by it in some way. It would change you. You would have to disable a part of yourself to adapt to it, just like you said.
You would have to be an actual sadistic psychopath to enjoy watching someone being tormented. Violence traumatizes people. It's why people who actually go and fight in wars come back with PTSD.
 
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