Unbalanced friendly relationships where you are being 'helped'

[Asa]

I also had a quite long term ISFJ friendship and I could see that there was a chasm between us. They misinterpret a lot of what we do and think etc. Often it just gets lost in the noise but sometimes it led to conflict. The relationship ended a few years ago. I found they were always suspicious and cagey. Seemed to always assume the worst motives in others and sought to help in a patronising way, while also coming across as humble. It’s odd for us INFJs to understand that. I felt this ISFJ was always suspicious of talent or achievement. Maybe it was jealousy. It was as if being humble was their default position. They just have no conception of the abstract world. They are highly affiliative and traditional. Politics is hard for them to grasp. They do come across as nice most of the time, but they always seem to be hiding something behind a smug and patronising expression. Like they think they know best. They like to help more than admire.

They're routinely a rocky spot for me in friendships. I have a good understanding about why. I wouldn't call her suspicious or cagey, but the rest fits. I wouldn't say ISFJs are humble in the ego sense, but they are close to the earth, no-nonsense, and not interested in flashiness... so they are humble in that sense.

She was very much a helper. Who doesn't like helpers? The problem is, if someone finds their social value in being THE helper, they may feel threatened if others reciprocate or taken for granted if they don't. I think this relates to the original dynamic you mentioned.

 

[slant]

To a sensor, the open-endedness of Ni comes across as the way young children approach the world. If that's the main thing they see of us, then they will give us the same courtesy that they give children in a parent-child relationship. This may be a nurturing parent relationship, or a stricter standard-setting relationship depending on our attitude towards them. It goes hand in glove with the way people establish social hierarchies - the sensors do this unconsciously and instinctively, but some of us introverts make a big indigestible meal of it.

If you can see what is going on, then as an intuitive you can use this behaviour to your advantage, because it can gain you entry to social contexts that are otherwise challenging - we can be given licence beyond our social status in a given group in the same way children are treated. It needs care if we are to be considered seriously though.

The mature intuitive can deal with this whole social game plan by projecting confidence in our world view. The others don't need to have any insight into it - it's enough only that we believe in ourselves and project that belief among others of whatever type. This needs to be practical not bullshitting - we need to contribute confidently and successfully in our own way, and be confident in it. A little hint of guru goes a long way in the right direction, but it needs to be done well, because it comes across as a caricature if it's mishandled. Ni/Fe if tuned up well is a very good way of feeling into a social situation effectively. Guru is socially high ranking, and is the natural social home for INFJ and INTJ.

 

[John K]

 

[Moranga]

 

[David Nelson]

Can relate a lot. I do voice my issues more than the character, certainly more now than I used to. Very INFJ though that video. We want others to be kind like us, but many aren't. So we tend to build a wall. It's only when you meet someone who can see through your wall that you realise you can take it down. Someone who you can be your true self with.

 

[Wyote]

Some people will respond well to niceness, some won't trust it.
Being able to meet people wherever they are is what's important.

 

[Moranga]

Can relate a lot. I do voice my issues more than the character, certainly more now than I used to. Very INFJ though that video. We want others to be kind like us, but many aren't. So we tend to build a wall. It's only when you meet someone who can see through your wall that you realise you can take it down. Someone who you can be your true self with.

I agree, the character was a bit much but it was relatable to times in life. I can relate to both sides of this.

 

[David Nelson]

Some people will respond well to niceness, some won't trust it.
Being able to meet people wherever they are is what's important.

Yes that makes sense. I can tell you that I always appreciate kind people, and never take advantage. I think it's the greatest virtue. I know someone who has learning issues, but he works on gardens and is such a kind soul. Very humble. I always talk to him and try to connect as best I can with him. Many would just ignore him, or worse laugh at him.

 

[Wyote]

I know someone who has learning issues, but he works on gardens and is such a kind soul. Very humble. I always talk to him and try to connect as best I can with him. Many would just ignore him, or worse laugh at him.

I know lots of people that get laughed at and ignored regularly

 

[aeon]

Some people will respond well to niceness, some won't trust it.

Years ago, there were times when a woman I was interested in would think I was putting on an act even though I was just being myself. So she would check with other people and be told “he’s that way with everybody,” at which point it was decided that I wasn’t just putting on an act, but I was a master manipulator and game player that had hoodwinked everyone.

I wouldn’t do that, and even if I wanted to, I’m not that clever. But no loss, because not following (toxic) cultural norms became a great screening tool. Lose the normies, find the NFs and freaks!

Being able to meet people wherever they are is what's important.

You have a remarkable gift for understatement.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Wyote]

“he’s that way with everybody,” at which point it was decided that I wasn’t just putting on an act, but I was a master manipulator and game player that had hoodwinked everyone.

I wouldn’t do that, and even if I wanted to, I’m not that clever. But no loss, because not following (toxic) cultural norms became a great screening tool. Lose the normies, find the NFs and freaks!

Weirdos: takes one to know one

 

[Enso]

Yes I have heard about ISTP's amazing abilities to mend things. CS Joseph talks about it in one of his videos. Power of Ti and Se. Natural mechanics and more.

My best friend is ISTP and like this. He's pretty smart and it sometimes feels like your talking to an Ni person, but if you stretch their minds too much they get defensive and think your trying to one up them, they can only take so much Ni.

 

[April]

I think with me what has encouraged these situations is that some of my work is low status and people do tend to pigeon-hole you on that basis. Plus some people do like to help others, so it's a combination of their need to help, with their failure to understand me based on stereotypical judgements, and my 'willingness' to go along with it. But how do you go about changing such a situation? Tell them they don't understand you? Ghost them?

I've experienced this in work and in general, but I don't mind unless I have made it very clear that it'snot for me and they still push it. I actually like it when I'moffered fresh and new perspective because to be honest, that's on the rare side for me. Not because I know all, but because I have usually gone through many different perspectives already, and if there is one I haven't considered, that's good for me. I can always learn something from someone else. It might not be what they intended to teach me, but I pull from it what I can or don't already know. I'm usually rather open to new insights and techniques.

Sensors though. They always try to make me see the facts because they think I disregard them. But I don't, I just dont use that information alone, whereas they want to stop it right there. I dont like that usually unless I'm actually trying to be objective. If not though, I need to know what's behind those facts or I am rather skeptical. I'm a skeptic anyway, but underlying details make me less so.

Anyhow, for the most part I welcome it... sometimes I don't.

 

[April]

I used to work with a man who would likely type as ISTP.

His ability to take anything apart, and I mean anything, fix it, and put it back together, such that it would be functional—even better than it had been—it was just amazing to me. No manual, no YouTube, it didn’t matter if he had seen the thing in question before, or anything else like it.

When the engine on the box truck went south, he ripped right into it, even though he had never worked on a diesel engine before, and certainly not any engine of that size. Shop quote was $5400 for the parts alone—he (and I) got it done for $800. I just scoured the web for deals on the parts he needed.

I mean, I’ll take things apart, but not on that kind of level. I saw him do it with engines of many kinds, printing presses, other automation equipment mechanicals and electrical systems—nothing seemed beyond his grasp.

To see it in person was like witnessing magic.

Some Sensors are not so exciting for Intuitives, but he was certainly one of them. A good guy too.

Another Sensor that really left an impression was a former girlfriend who typed as ESFP, Type 7 Enneagram. Because I don’t really understand the how of it, I can’t explain it, but she had remarkable depth—of a kind largely foreign to me. And I thought I was a stimulation junkie!

In my 25+ years of online communities talking about type, Sensors of any kind are a rare sighting, to be sure.

Cheers,
Ian

I agree... watching my bf (ISTP) work his magic is really attractive and impressive. However I usually get really nervous because I'm scared he's going to tear up something... but he hasn't... lmao.

I just have to research before I troubleshoot. He just dives right in because he naturally has a know how of how things generally work. It's common sense to him. He's always like "April this is simple, how could I mess this up?" Then I list ways he could mess it up and he tells me why that won't happen and I'm like... "Oh." Then i feel like an idiot because he makes it seem so simple lol.

This is one of the ways I enjoy those types of experiences. But boy do I get frustrated until I know for sure... and then I usually end up proud because he made it more efficient than it was before. Lol.

 

[April]

I also had a quite long term ISFJ friendship and I could see that there was a chasm between us. They misinterpret a lot of what we do and think etc. Often it just gets lost in the noise but sometimes it led to conflict. The relationship ended a few years ago. I found they were always suspicious and cagey. Seemed to always assume the worst motives in others and sought to help in a patronising way, while also coming across as humble. It’s odd for us INFJs to understand that. I felt this ISFJ was always suspicious of talent or achievement. Maybe it was jealousy. It was as if being humble was their default position. They just have no conception of the abstract world. They are highly affiliative and traditional. Politics is hard for them to grasp. They do come across as nice most of the time, but they always seem to be hiding something behind a smug and patronising expression. Like they think they know best. They like to help more than admire.

My ex was ISFJ... he typed as that anyway. Mine was a very different experience but he had issues lol.

 

[David Nelson]

My ex was ISFJ... he typed as that anyway. Mine was a very different experience but he had issues lol.

My pet theory is that the IF and J all add intensity, but the S being grounded in reality through the sense doesn't give the intensity much to play with (via perception of deeper things) . This makes the intensity/passion go towards simplistic perceptions of life and thus they judge others often and wrongly a fair bit of the time. And the intensity can go inwards and make them paranoid and anxious.

 

[April]

My pet theory is that the IF and J all add intensity, but the S being grounded in reality through the sense doesn't give the intensity much to play with (via perception of deeper things) . This makes the intensity/passion go towards simplistic perceptions of life and thus they judge others often and wrongly a fair bit of the time. And the intensity can go inwards and make them paranoid and anxious.

Thats... fairly accurate lol I think you described what I couldnt stand about him most. He was suuuuppper simple and that was such a turn off. So very simple. I feel bad for saying that but omg. :/ Plus he was very insecure. Would cry so very often if I said something wrong (which at first got to me but time after time? I eventually just rolled my eyes inwardly and tried to explain myself in a more childlike fashion. He would also cry because I thought someone else was attractive... but then he'd go and spend hours having sexy conversations with women lol. Which eventually I didn't care about.

So glad that's over... lmao

 

[dZpADTLrPmX4c]

ohhh okay I know what this is!

To a sensor, the open-endedness of Ni comes across as the way young children approach the world. If that's the main thing they see of us, then they will give us the same courtesy that they give children in a parent-child relationship. This may be a nurturing parent relationship, or a stricter standard-setting relationship depending on our attitude towards them. It goes hand in glove with the way people establish social hierarchies - the sensors do this unconsciously and instinctively, but some of us introverts make a big indigestible meal of it.

If you can see what is going on, then as an intuitive you can use this behaviour to your advantage, because it can gain you entry to social contexts that are otherwise challenging - we can be given licence beyond our social status in a given group in the same way children are treated. It needs care if we are to be considered seriously though.

The mature intuitive can deal with this whole social game plan by projecting confidence in our world view. The others don't need to have any insight into it - it's enough only that we believe in ourselves and project that belief among others of whatever type. This needs to be practical not bullshitting - we need to contribute confidently and successfully in our own way, and be confident in it. A little hint of guru goes a long way in the right direction, but it needs to be done well, because it comes across as a caricature if it's mishandled. Ni/Fe if tuned up well is a very good way of feeling into a social situation effectively. Guru is socially high ranking, and is the natural social home for INFJ and INTJ.

What Gandalf said

 

[John K]

ohhh okay I know what this is!



What Gandalf said

I enjoyed writing that. Anti-balrog spray!

 

[Gaze]

Yes, when I was in college, I was still pretty young, much younger than most, so some of my peers took it upon themselves to make me a kind of personal project. They thought they were helping but it was patronizing and simplifying. They had good intentions to mentor me because I was from a different culture and lacked a certain level of experience or awareness. But I think some got off on the idea, especially in our social group that they were doing this great service, their "Christian duty," to be nice and show me the ropes. In the end, rather than being helped or empowered, it was pitying and diminishing. They didn't know or understand as much as they thought, so their "help" was more invalidating than helpful. I learned to back away from those types of relationships over time. However, on occasion, I see this trait in a few friends. They lack the awareness to realize that it's just not your place to force "help." Sometimes, people think they know more and have all the answers, rather than simply listening, learning, and understanding.