War on Iraq ''officially'' over.

This war should never have happened; it was all about the money from the very start.
 
War is generally about money. It is strange that that needs to be pointed out.
 
~jet said:
This war should never have happened; it was all about the money from the very start.
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I wouldn't be so sure, if it was about money they've done a piss poor job. More was spent on the war than anyone could ever profit from whatever oil was supposedly fought over.

In all honesty I don't think anyone really knew what they were fighting for. This'll probably go down as one of the most pointless wars in history.
 
88chaz88 said:
I wouldn't be so sure, if it was about money they've done a piss poor job. More was spent on the war than anyone could ever profit from whatever oil was supposedly fought over.

In all honesty I don't think anyone really knew what they were fighting for. This'll probably go down as one of the most pointless wars in history.
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oh, the nation went bankrupt over it, but the people that own halliburton and Dick Cheney made a killing.
 
88chaz88 said:
I wouldn't be so sure, if it was about money they've done a piss poor job. More was spent on the war than anyone could ever profit from whatever oil was supposedly fought over.

In all honesty I don't think anyone really knew what they were fighting for. This'll probably go down as one of the most pointless wars in history.
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Disagree; contractors (most of whom are married to or were the previous employers to the people who decided to get into the war in the first place) made out like bandits. And soooooo much money disappeared into thin air as well.
 
The super rich make a lot of money out of war.

War is great for their business.

The politicians are in their pocket.

Some of the public blindly still believe that the politicians work for them.

They haven't yet grasped that the politicians work for the super rich.

The super rich make money out of the war and the public pay for it.

The government pay the debts to the super rich using public funds and the public take on the debt (concerning the financial bailout, not the war).

There is a constant movement of public wealth into private hands (neoliberalism); this is fascilitated by the politicians. All the deregulation which various politicians have brought about have allowed the super rich to monopolise and to consolidate their wealth.

The super rich pull the strings not the politicians and they don't care if a few thousand american soldiers, many from poor backgrounds, die in their conflict.

Does the figure of 4,400 dead US soldiers, mentioned above, include those that have committed suicide since returning home (or those that are yet to commit suicide....because there will be many). I think that is another hidden cost in the conflict.
 
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lets not forget how the " greatest generation" paid for the WW2.... the top half of the tax bracket went up to 90 percent of income. The country decided if it was going to war, everyone at home was going to do their job and contribute to the war effort. they had just dealt with the depresion and understood hardship and took the challenge head on.

today we have politicians playing the I can promise to tax lower than you can, as a means of garnering votes, and like sheep, we march to the slaughter never asking who will pay for all that we are spending.

Now we have the very people who are Pro war, scream about cutting taxes when we have this crazy national debt because of it. Well taxes haven't been this low in 60 years and it's painfully clear that this current generation of americans are not really interested in being "great". they just want money and they want to blow things up far far away with no personal consequences.

War has consequences, death being the primary one and next up is the expense. Well we have to pay it or the children will when they take over.

that is not the legacy I want to leave behind as an american.
 
Several of my former colleagues fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq have told me that taking the fight there has kept it (and the terrorists) off Ameican soil, by providing a focal point for it elsewhere. On the surface, their claims appear accurate ... as there have been no attacks on US soil (that have succeeded) since 9-11. I wonder if that would have also been the case without the war, however.

I don't think that pulling troops out of Iraq will end the conflict there. I see a great potential for errupting sectarian violence and possible civil war ... not to mention Iran's eye on the country if we leave. It won't end until some sort of stable, strong government is in place ... and that could be another dictatorship. I'm happy for the soliders that they can come home and be done with it. I hated my time in the Middle East. It is not a pleasant place, and I imagine it is even worse now than it was during my time there.
 
Nighthawk said:
Several of my former colleagues fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq have told me that taking the fight there has kept it (and the terrorists) off Ameican soil, by providing a focal point for it elsewhere. On the surface, their claims appear accurate ... as there have been no attacks on US soil (that have succeeded) since 9-11. I wonder if that would have also been the case without the war, however.

I don't think that pulling troops out of Iraq will end the conflict there. I see a great potential for errupting sectarian violence and possible civil war ... not to mention Iran's eye on the country if we leave. It won't end until some sort of stable, strong government is in place ... and that could be another dictatorship. I'm happy for the soliders that they can come home and be done with it. I hated my time in the Middle East. It is not a pleasant place, and I imagine it is even worse now than it was during my time there.
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they will be blowing each other up long after you and I are dead, thats for sure.

interesting.. I have a close friend that is a marine and he's been in both theatres of war and said that from the get go they were both unwinable and politicians wars. He thought it was demoralizing. He said he was underequipped and never given a clear vision of where the war was trying to head.... Just go drive around and look for people to kill.... thats what "wiping up small pockets of resistance" sounds like in practical terms.

I guess there is a divergence of opinions even in the military.

I tend to think that saying something is good because it DIDNT happen, like a second attack during the bush presidency, is a bit of a sticky wicket, as it did not happen, it could not have for soooo many reasons.

what we DO know is that Saddam hunted Al Qaeda like dogs while he was in control of Iraq, because he didn't want the competition and threat to his authority, and when we took him out, they flooded the region. So if what you are saying is true, then we have send tens of thousands of Iraqi's to their grave just so we can be a little less scared at home.

I don't feel comfortable with that. I want to believe that america is better than that.
 
Saddam was pretty much a paper tiger by the time we went back into Iraq. Not much of a threat to other countries in the region. And certainly no threat to the US.
His ruse of maintaining a WMD program was designed to intimidate Iran, but it ended up spurring the United States into war.

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."
Dwight D. Eisenhower, Military-Industrial Complex Speech. 1961

Defense bureaucrats see wars as necessary to insure their survival.
 
BostonAndy said:
interesting.. I have a close friend that is a marine and he's been in both theatres of war and said that from the get go they were both unwinable and politicians wars. He thought it was demoralizing. He said he was underequipped and never given a clear vision of where the war was trying to head.... Just go drive around and look for people to kill.... thats what "wiping up small pockets of resistance" sounds like in practical terms.

I guess there is a divergence of opinions even in the military.
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Ah yes ... my ex-colleagues are all field grade officers now, so their opinions are probably a bit ivory towerish. They haven't had to get down in the foxholes for quite a few years. It seems the higher up you go, the greater the tendency to paint a favorable picture ... because you are in part responsible for the success (or failure). I also remember being under equipped ... not having enough clothing and our tanks were continuously breaking down. Meanwhile the generals and congress were spouting off glowing reports.

I tend to think that saying something is good because it DIDNT happen, like a second attack during the bush presidency, is a bit of a sticky wicket, as it did not happen, it could not have for soooo many reasons.
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Exactly. It's difficult to claim credit for preventing something that might not have happened anyway.

what we DO know is that Saddam hunted Al Qaeda like dogs while he was in control of Iraq, because he didn't want the competition and threat to his authority, and when we took him out, they flooded the region. So if what you are saying is true, then we have send tens of thousands of Iraqi's to their grave just so we can be a little less scared at home.

I don't feel comfortable with that. I want to believe that america is better than that.
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Sadly, I don't think America was ever totally clean. Fire bombings in Germany during WW2 killed hundreds of thousands of non-combatants. It was a total war however, and that is part of the price, however unpalatable. Like you however, I would like to think that America is better than indescriminate killing and torture. I know there were very strict rules of engagement and rules governing treatment of prisoners in place when I was over there for gulf one. I would imagine there still are. Also, infractions are published in the press more nowadays than they were in the past ... so there is more accountablility. Overall though, I feel it was still a political war in which many of the soldiers' hands were tied.
 
MindYourHead said:
Defense bureaucrats see wars as necessary to insure their survival.
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When I was a young soldier, I couldn't wait to test my mettle in combat. I was disappointed when I could not participate in the invasions of Grenada or Panama. I waited many years, practicing, until the 1991 gulf war presented itself and I was positioned to participate. It was then that I realized how misguided I was and how terrible war is. Taking human life has to be one of the worst feelings in the world, particularly when feeling relieved, even happy, that your's was not taken in return. I think that if some of the bureaucrats could experience this for themselves, then they would not be so quick to propagate future wars. The military does exist to fight, and eventually its leaders will find a war for it.
 
Nighthawk said:
When I was a young soldier, I couldn't wait to test my mettle in combat. I was disappointed when I could not participate in the invasions of Grenada or Panama. I waited many years, practicing, until the 1991 gulf war presented itself and I was positioned to participate. It was then that I realized how misguided I was and how terrible war is. Taking human life has to be one of the worst feelings in the world, particularly when feeling relieved, even happy, that your's was not taken in return. I think that if some of the bureaucrats could experience this for themselves, then they would not be so quick to propagate future wars. The military does exist to fight, and eventually its leaders will find a war for it.
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You've reminded me of the Black Sabbath song War Pigs.

Generals gathered in their masses
Just like witches at black masses
Evil minds that plot destruction
Sorcerers of death's construction
In the fields the bodies burning
As the war machine keeps turning
Death and hatred to mankind
Poisoning their brainwashed minds
Oh lord yeah!

Politicians hide themselves away
They only started the war
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor
 
I'll not pretend to understand all the reasons war happens. I will say many of the reasons that were cited for going to war with Iraq are going on in Iran to the Nth degree. It makes me wonder just like most people.

As for the supposed end of the war, the vacuum will be filled with others. Will it spill over to Iran? There are estimates nearly 43% of Americans killed in Iraq had at least a hand in it from Iran in some form or another. SH used CBWs against the Kurds and against Iran during his time of power. He payed the parents of Palestinian children to use them as suicide bombers. That did not stop suicide bombing, but it was disgusting. His children were abusers; not of drugs or alcohol, but of people. He claimed to have WMDs, and many trucks were photographed going into Syria while preparations were being made for the attack. No proof was found except his plans to restart the program as sanctions were lifted.

Play it forward a few years and Iran, left unchecked by SH, has proven to be such a threat to the world CBWs and WMDs might have to be used to contain their goals one day, God forbid. No wonder SH used what he used, as he may have had little choice. Iran has been fighting us the whole time we were in Iraq, and they will not leave with us. They most likely will eye the oilfields left under control by a weakened system of governance left out to hang by the US by our leaving. Why do we even have this problem? Why did we try to rebuild Iraq and its government? That is the way we do things now. We do not just destroy and leave. If that were the case, the war could have been over many moons ago. Should countries go into Iran, there will be no rebuilding unless a large enough inner resistance is there to help make it happen.

If things get too out of hand, do not be surprised to see our return. Corruption in the different factions in Iraq and Afghanistan has not made our job we set out to accomplish any easier, only more timely and more costly.
I do not like to see our leaving people that have helped us try to build a government there to the dogs.
 
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