Were nations better off communist rather than capitalist?

The_Mysterious_Stranger said:
I like the idea of communism mixed with capitalism. Because it better motivates people into STEM, philosophy, and more sophisticated arts (like music, architecture. As Neizche said, make art achievement oriented. (I think Dennis Prager has a good criticism on a lot of the liberal art) Capitalism is a distraction. Sort of how renaissance artists were under direction of the Vatican.
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Would it be fair to say in your hierarchy of values, human freedom is not quite at the top?
 
Ren said:
Would it be fair to say in your hierarchy of values, human freedom is not quite at the top?
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Noam Chomsky and Neizche would probably support anarchy syndicate. Seems more reasonable when AI comes into play.
 
Ren said:
Would it be fair to say in your hierarchy of values, human freedom is not quite at the top?
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Who needs freedom. Those pesky humans keep thinking the wrong thoughts, believing the wrong beliefs, and choosing the wrong choices anyway. They need a strong guiding hand to show them the right way.

*shiver*
Deleted member 16771 said:
What I find disappointing about the modern reception of Marxism is that Marx's theory of history (Historical Materialism; HM) and critique of capitalism are given nowhere near enough credit because of what happened subsequently in the twentieth century.
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That's fair, we should be able to discuss Marx's ideas without looking at the implementations of some of those ideas.

Unfortunately I can't join you there, I haven't read Marx's work. I've only read about the implementations,as that's where my interests lie.
 
The_Mysterious_Stranger said:
The bigger question could be, could a civilization like in Star Trek be implemented?
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But the Star Trek universe isn't communist. There's private property and trade and such and Latinum I believe is the currency's name. They just happen to be very communist like because technology has eliminated scarcity. An elimination of scarcity is not communism it just leads to a situation where the essentials of life are so easy to produce in mass that spending money on essentials becomes essentially unheard of. If you really want to usher in that world maybe you should get into the sciences.
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
What I find disappointing about the modern reception of Marxism is that Marx's theory of history (Historical Materialism; HM) and critique of capitalism are given nowhere near enough credit because of what happened subsequently in the twentieth century.

Marx was an intellectual powerhouse; an unsurpassed genius in his time and field, and his modern reception feels like people bashing a Newton as if they could've done better.
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What really makes my blood boil is when nobodies like Paul Krugman come out and say how Marx was 99% wrong and is completely useless for modern times.

Marx was 100x broader and deeper thinker than Krugman, who has only historical tendencies to thank that he won a nobel price for a completely useless model of international trade. I studied that shit, and it was astonishingly unimpressive and its contribution to the world entirely unimportant.
 
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My gf once asked me who are, in my opinion, top 5 most impressive people of last 200 years. My answers were Marx, Freud, Tesla...and then I was struggling.

Obviously, everyone will have different standards, this question is completely subjective. But in terms of contributing to understanding of the world, I would really put Marx and Freud at the top. And Tesla I just like. I have no ideas about the technical details of his work, but his discoveries/inventions seem to be very broad and visionary.
 
philostam said:
What really makes my blood boil is when nobodies like Paul Krugman come out and say how Marx was 99% wrong and is completely useless for modern times.
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Why does it make your blood coil?

If anything, I don't think it makes Krugman look very good to make such a blanket statement.

Little men often make the biggest claims.
 
The_Mysterious_Stranger said:
Also, I would prefer people not to do work at all they don't want to do and everybody just does their own things, somehow. Everyone works on something the individual is passionate about. Maybe when AI arrives to to the tedious things.
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One hundred percent. If everyone could have some actual freedom to do the things they are skilled at and find enjoyable, creative.. the work wouldn't seem so much like work. To me, the sensation of working many hours per week doing something one hates is far more akin to government control than a fair socialist structure. Ai scares me, tbh, but the rest^ is surely agreed.
 
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Misty said:
One hundred percent. If everyone could have some actual freedom to do the things they are skilled at and find enjoyable, creative.. the work wouldn't seem so much like work. To me, the sensation of working many hours per week doing something one hates is far more akin to government control than a fair socialist structure
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We agree on this, Misty. The only thing I'm worried about is how to achieve a 'fair socialist structure'.

In my mind the Dutch political system was—if not that, at least an example of well functioning social democracy. How have you found it personally? I read somewhere that the average number of hours worked per week by a Dutch employee is like 30, which sounded amazing. But I believe this is because a lot of people work part time. Not a bad thing though.
 
Ren said:
We agree on this, Misty. The only thing I'm worried about is how to achieve a 'fair socialist structure'.

In my mind the Dutch political system was—if not that, at least an example of well functioning social democracy. How have you found it personally? I read somewhere that the average number of hours worked per week by a Dutch employee is like 30, which sounded amazing. But I believe this is because a lot of people work part time. Not a bad thing though.
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Yes, as an American I have my complaints, don't get me wrong. The justice system is a slow moving joke. Thank goodness that crime is pretty non existent here.. But for those of us who have been wronged.. yeah, it takes a toll. The info the government wants is a little weird sometimes, like every time you move you have to register in that municipality immediately otherwise you lose any tax benefit / credits you would otherwise be entitled to and have to wait 6 to 8 weeks before the mess is straightened out.

Any Dutch person worth their Herring will tell you that our tax office 'belastingdienst' is run by absolute Hillbillies wearing stylish scarves. They have made a few really dumb mistakes with me too like accidentally wiring my tax return to my ex's bank account instead of mine then taking 3 months to "investigate" where it went.. even though they already knew and so did I. :sweatsmile:

Now, for the positives.. which far outweigh ( minus the justitie systeem, ofc ):

What you read is true. There are those who work 8 a day × 5 per week, some who may be in professions like law etc, docs who *may* ofc pull more hours, likely by choice rather than force. But most mothers here adhere to 3 days a week - Mon, Tues, & Thurs, with Wednesdays and Fridays off. :) This is because most kids are out around 12 noon Wed & Fri, so.. bonus! In fact, most businesses hold any important meetings on Tues / Thurs bc of this. The Dutch respect family time and not burning people out, imo. And the benefits here are unimaginable as an American.

If you have a house and you make under X per year.. which is like 40k plus you get huurtoeslag. Aka- the Dutch tax office pays you 250 to 360 ish depending upon family size etc to put toward your housing costs. Houses here are around 630 to 750 a month for 3 to 4 bedrooms and a yard. :) You do the math..

Under this cap of 40k or so you also receive zorgtoeslag. Medical insurance benefits. This means if your med insurance costs you 110 euro per month - good insurance too, the tax office wires you 104 each month. ;)

You get child tax creds spread out over a year which can be from 100 or so for 1 to 365 etc for 2 or 3 esp if you are a single parent / divorced.

There is a security net underneath the people here. If one loses their job they are covered by the government until they find a new job. Now ofc this means that the taxes are high here. And really steep for the rich / upper middle class even. As steep as 40%, but I say that's how it should be.
 
Ah yes, forgot one other negative. Wait lists for houses can be between 2 and 10 years.. :tearsofjoy:
 
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