What is freedom?

Freedom is a lot of things, but the most important aspect of freedom to me is freedom to an opinion, a belief, etc. Freedom inside one's own mind is what I see as key. Being able to think and feel in the way one chooses. (And that leads into the freedom to act accordingly, which complicates things....)

I don't see that freedom can entirely exist in a literal/physical state for all. If everyone were granted the ability to act entirely upon their own free will, their wills would all, in some way or another, contradict one another's.



On a separate note, this reminds me of the party slogan from 1984:
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH​

But I'll stop here because I really feel myself going off on a tangent.
 
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Hi Roger, likewise, nice to talk to you

I like your values, they are positive and healthy

Why i used the bird in a cage analogy is because i think many people feel a bit like a bird in a cage sometimes....like they need to spread their wings but can't

I think identifying and understanding the problem can help in the process of navigating a way through a world that can often conflict with an individuals value system

I agree living simple joyful lives is the way to go. Recognising the things that are wrong in the world and rejecting them as far as possible, day to day. I think following the heart usually opens up the right doors
 
My dear sir.

muir said:
I like your values, they are positive and healthy

Why i used the bird in a cage analogy is because i think many people feel a bit like a bird in a cage sometimes....like they need to spread their wings but can't

I think identifying and understanding the problem can help in the process of navigating a way through a world that can often conflict with an individuals value system

I agree living simple joyful lives is the way to go. Recognising the things that are wrong in the world and rejecting them as far as possible, day to day. I think following the heart usually opens up the right doors
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First of all, thank you for your compliment, Muir. And me too, I like your ideas very much.
And also, thank you very much for explaining it to me. ^_^
 
muir said:
What if the bird doesn't realise it is caged because it can't see outside the cage?

If the bird is born into the cage and knows no other life but sometimes wonders if there is something beyond the cage....is it free?
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Yes, it is. Because freedom is a state of mind in one aspect, and not simply based on physical limitations. If you are slave, and do what your master says, it doesn't mean you necessarily see yourself as a slave, as inferior, although you may be treated this way. So, mentally, although the expectations of living and acting as a slave are tiresome, oppressive, abusive, and frustrating, we are still free to think differently than our circumstances would dictate.
 
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Res said:
Yes, it is. Because freedom is a state of mind in one aspect, and not simply based on physical limitations. If you are slave, and do what your master says, it doesn't mean you necessarily see yourself as a slave, as inferior, although you may be treated this way. So, mentally, although the expectations of living and acting as a slave are tiresome, oppressive, abusive, and frustrating, we are still free to think differently than our circumstances would dictate.
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I don't know Res, that sounds like quite a low expectation of freedom

Have you ever read 'The Call of the Wild'? The main character is...well obviously...a dog! The dog ends up as a sled dog in the Yukon during the gold rush but always yearns to be free of its life of servitude. It has known a better life and realises the cruelty of its current one.

One of the other dogs has never known a different life and is very proud of its position in the pack; when it is finally released because it is too old and weak it trys to rejoin the sled pack...it tries to rejoin its life of bondage

This is not because its life was so great under bondage it is because it knew no better

I think that the conditions you describe above do not allow people to realise their full potential (spread their wings); I think they lead to anxiety and a narrow view of the world

I don't think that people should settle for slavery regardless of what goes on in their mind. The other complication with a condition of slavery is that your mind may be influenced in certain ways such as being provided with a narrow world view, due to narrow input or interpretation (through media or education) or by the culture which is created by the condition of servitude.

So one aspect of such a culture might be for example: consumerism. Under consumerism people are told what they should want.....they are not really thinking for themselves. Another aspect of such a culture might be the values it holds ideal; it might reward: cruelty instead of compassion, blind ignorance and obediance instead of well informed independent descision making, the hoarding of wealth instead of shared wealth, short term destructive gains instead of long term sustainable gains, isolation of people instead of the bringing together of people, destruction of the environment for profit instead of harmony, competition instead of cooperation. Under such conditions...is the mind really free?

(I am not directing this next paragraph at you...i am just stating an observation i have made) Listening to the arguments of some people it is possible to see the layers of indoctrination.....their arguments reflect a lack of understanding accompanied with stubborness....these are the hallmarks of indoctrination. They are like the burnt out old sled dog....tragically clinging to a condition that impoverishes their life experience
 
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Roger42 said:
First of all, thank you for your compliment, Muir. And me too, I like your ideas very much.
And also, thank you very much for explaining it to me. ^_^
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No worries!

I wonder about the idea of people needing a leader though.....i'm not sure leaders are a good idea

Leaders, for positive change, are often targeted by reactionary forces....a recent example is the general who chose to help the red shirts in Thailand....the government forces shot him in the head during a rally

Besides total control shouldn't reside with one person it should reside with everyone.....that is the ultimate check and balance

If all descisions are made openly and agreed upon by everyone involved then people will behave respectfully towards each other.

If for example there is a company; a CEO of a company might decide they want more pay, so they fire some workers and they get the rest to work harder.

If the company was owned and run by the workers, then they would come to a group descision. No individual would be able to squeeze the rest because they all have equal power....they would create a fairer and more equal workplace

I think that model should be applied at all levels of society. I simply cannot understand how we allow ourselves to be at the mercy of a few power hungry individuals.......it is incredibly unevolved
 
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True freedom in the context of physics (unrestrained, not complying to laws and rules) would result in us no longer existing.
 
Muir, Dear friend.

muir said:
No worries!

I wonder about the idea of people needing a leader though.....i'm not sure leaders are a good idea

Leaders, for positive change, are often targeted by reactionary forces....a recent example is the general who chose to help the red shirts in Thailand....the government forces shot him in the head during a rally

Besides total control shouldn't reside with one person it should reside with everyone.....that is the ultimate check and balance

If all descisions are made openly and agreed upon by everyone involved then people will behave respectfully towards each other.

If for example there is a company; a CEO of a company might decide they want more pay, so they fire some workers and they get the rest to work harder.

If the company was owned and run by the workers, then they would come to a group descision. No individual would be able to squeeze the rest because they all have equal power....they would create a fairer and more equal workplace

I think that model should be applied at all levels of society. I simply cannot understand how we allow ourselves to be at the mercy of a few power hungry individuals.......it is incredibly unevolved
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I think I haven't tell you all the stuff I know about the "having a leader" thing. Due to all people have their different characters and therefore different thoughts upon a same thing or with several matters, so it is really hard for all of us to get agreed upon those certain 'best' ideas - like 'a new world, a new kinda development and consume, new ways of thinking, and freedoms; and responsibilities; and so on.'

The reason why I claimed that only by one person can change the whole world, is because that person have real stuff in him/her, not by the power which you had mentioned before. In the other way, I can tell you that it is all by his/her influence! So, he/she must be a person that have perfect character and the most brilliant thoughts, and of course his/her influences and willingness!!!!!!!

That's almost it :)

I am not feeling that I am in a very good mood right now. So, I'm sorry for this, Sir :peace::angel:
 
Freedom is to be able to choose, speak, love, beleive, think and live as you wish, as long as you`re not agressing someone elses freedom, or hurting anyone else as a consquence of that freedom.
 
Freedom is a lie.

We as humans are forever bound by our desires, hopes, natures and misfortunes.

We cannot truly ever act of our own will.

We are merely making the exact choice that our nature, either through natural development or an unfortunate past event, dictates is the best course of action.

I would rather not explain it further.

You INFJ's are so easily upset.

*pats*
 
Melkor said:
Freedom is a lie.

We as humans are forever bound by our desires, hopes, natures and misfortunes.

We cannot truly ever act of our own will.

We are merely making the exact choice that our nature, either through natural development or an unfortunate past event, dictates is the best course of action.

I would rather not explain it further.

You INFJ's are so easily upset.

*pats*
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If you worry about INFJ's reaction to what you think freedom is, keep going. Or is it perhaps you don't actually know where you were headed and just wanted to create an air of 'mystery'? ;)

*pats*
 
No, it's just that I'm not so sour as to think everyone should follow my policy of Knowledge>Happiness.;D

If I wanted mystery I'd post a video of me hiding behind a curtain while reading verses from an unintelligble nineteenth century novel:>

(I have a thread on this somewhere if you're interested)
 
I dont think freedom is a lie. I think that the number of posts on here show how important that feeling is to people. I do think freedom exists in our hearts and minds more than any other place. People are willing to risk or even sacrifice their lives for it. MLK's "free at last" a message to all of us.
 
James said:
I dont think freedom is a lie. I think that the number of posts on here show how important that feeling is to people. I do think freedom exists in our hearts and minds more than any other place. People are willing to risk or even sacrifice their lives for it. MLK's "free at last" a message to all of us.
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James, I agree with you. I think that the ultimate freedoms is not a far off thing, if all of us can make the changes to change this world in a courageous way!!!!!:angel:
 
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Melkor said:
Freedom is a lie.

We as humans are forever bound by our desires, hopes, natures and misfortunes.

We cannot truly ever act of our own will.

We are merely making the exact choice that our nature, either through natural development or an unfortunate past event, dictates is the best course of action.

I would rather not explain it further.

You INFJ's are so easily upset.

*pats*
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I, for one, would love to hear you expound, that is, if you're up to it.
 
Consider this: Freedom is insignificance.
After all, if no one cares... no one is going to stop you.
:m155:
​

We, as humans, have always lived in a state of refusal towards absolute acknowledgement that desires, hopes, natures and misfortunes can be simply abandoned.

Thus we can never truly disassociate will from significance.
:m197:
​

We are merely making the exact choice that our nature, be it either informed by natural development or an unfortunate past event, dictates is the best course of action. (I would rather not explain it further.)
:m159:
​

However, you INFJ's are more kind than most, and I love you all.
:mlove2:
​
*hugs*

(No, I don't condone what I just posted. Well, except for the hug part :D)
 
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Now, when I think of freedom, I have this sort of understandings, I want to share it with you: "Principle & Harmony: how do we find the freedom as we can (nowadays)?": 1. Find yourself "the very principles", and live with those principles; 2. Try, do your best to live your life in the harmony! :yo: Thanks.
 
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That's all I've ever wanted: freedom. I've tried multiple ways to avoid being bound by anyone, but I've learned the hard way that it's nearly impossible - unless you're completely resourceful, and that's what I'm trying to be.

The desire to be free starts with a state of mind that must filter into your being and then into your lifestyle. I'm working on letting is saturate my being, as my mind has longed for it for such a long time. I'm one the brink of a lifestyle change, but I must gain personal independence before I seek independence from my superiors. When I don't have to rely on society to keep my boat afloat, I will have achieved freedom.

That is my goal.
 
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