What is the most overrated virtue?

[Odyne]

I would like to know, in your opinion.

It could be within context of your own personal life or within the context of society or the human race - which virtue do you think is most overrated.

Here is a pretty long list I was able to find:
https://www.familiesofcharacter.com/devblog10809/2018/3/21/what-are-the-40-virtues-full-list
I did not vet this source- I admit.

Here they are in this spoiler:

Spoiler: List of 40 virtues

1. Orderliness: achieving our goals by doing the things we should do, when we should do them, and how we should do them. This is also involved with keeping oneself physically clean and neat and one’s belongings in good order.
   
   
2. Generosity: the attitude and habits we demonstrate when we give towards the needs of others in a willing and cheerful manner.
   
   
3. Fortitude: the courage to stand up for what is right, even in the face of pressure.
   
   
4. Prudence: the virtue that allows us to determine what’s right and what’s wrong and then act accordingly. Prudence could also be called wisdom.
   
   
5. Justice: giving to others what they are rightly due.
   
   
6. Temperance: controlling our desires and wants in order to achieve a greater good and meet our life goals. Temperance could also be called self-control.
   
   
7. Assertiveness: achieving goals by setting appropriate boundaries, asking for help when we need it, and being confident and positive about our abilities.
   
   
8. Purposefulness: having a vision, clear focus, and concentration on goals.
   
   
9. Modesty: purity of heart in action, especially in regards to dress and speech.
   
   
10. Peacefulness: having a sense of inner calm, no matter what is happening around you.
    
    
11. Service: being helpful to the entire family of man. This can also be called beneficence, which means helping the greater community for the common good.
    
    
12. Clemency: handling disobedience, poor choices, and disputes in a reasonable and consistent manner by not being too strict, but not being too lax either.
    
    
13. Helpfulness: being of service to others; doing thoughtful things that make a difference in their lives.
    
    
14. Kindness: expressing genuine concern about the well-being of others; anticipating their needs.
    
    
15. Good Counsel: seeking advice from a reasonable person.
    
    
16. Responsibility: fulfilling one’s just duties; accepting the consequences of one’s words and actions, intentional and unintentional.
    
    
17. Honesty: sincerity, openness, and truthfulness in one’s works and actions.
    
    
18. Respect: recognizing the worth and dignity of every single human person.
    
    
19. Tolerance: allowing other people to have their opinions about non-essential things and accepting the preferences and ideas that are different from your without compromising your own beliefs.
    
    
20. Perseverance: taking the steps necessary to carry out objectives in spite of difficulties.
    
    
21. Good judgment: thinking rightly about a decision, sound decision.
    
    
22. Gratitude: having a thankful disposition of mind and heart.
    
    
23. Humility: having an awareness that all one’s gifts come from God and appreciation for the gifts of others.
    
    
24. Obedience: assenting to rightful authority without hesitation or resistance.
    
    
25. Patience: remaining calm and not becoming annoyed when dealing with problems or difficult people. This could also mean paying attention to something for a long time without becoming bored or losing interest.
    
    
26. Command: directly acting upon a sound decision.
    
    
27. Truthfulness: acting in a way that inspires confidences and trust; being reliable.
    
    
28. Moderation: attention to balance in one’s life.
    
    
29. Loyalty: accepting the bond implicit in relationships and defending the virtues upheld by Church, family, and country.
    
    
30. Courtesy: treating other people with respect, recognizing that all are made in God's image and likeness.
    
    
31. Affability: being easy to approach and easy to talk to; friendly.
    
    
32. Sincerity: trustfulness in words and actions; honesty and enthusiasm toward others.
    
    
33. Prayerfulness: being still, listening, and being willing to talk to God as a friend.
    
    
34. Magnanimity: seeking with confidence to do great things in God; literally “having a large soul.”
    
    
35. Docility: willingness to be taught.
    
    
36. Industriousness: diligence, especially in work that leads to natural and supernatural maturity.
    
    
37. Foresight: consideration of the consequences of one's action; thinking ahead.
    
    
38. Patriotism: paying due honor and respect to one's country, with a willingness to serve.
    
    
39. Meekness: having a serenity of spirit while focusing on the needs of others.
    
    
40. Circumspection/Tact: careful consideration of circumstances and consequences.

If you find one that is more extensive, feel free to post it. I can maybe add it to OP.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

I would like to know, in your opinion.

It could be within context of your own personal life or within the context of society or the human race - which virtue do you think is most overrated.

Here is a pretty long list I was able to find:
https://www.familiesofcharacter.com/devblog10809/2018/3/21/what-are-the-40-virtues-full-list
I did not vet this source- I admit.

Here they are in this spoiler:

Spoiler: List of 40 virtues

1. Orderliness: achieving our goals by doing the things we should do, when we should do them, and how we should do them. This is also involved with keeping oneself physically clean and neat and one’s belongings in good order.
   
   
2. Generosity: the attitude and habits we demonstrate when we give towards the needs of others in a willing and cheerful manner.
   
   
3. Fortitude: the courage to stand up for what is right, even in the face of pressure.
   
   
4. Prudence: the virtue that allows us to determine what’s right and what’s wrong and then act accordingly. Prudence could also be called wisdom.
   
   
5. Justice: giving to others what they are rightly due.
   
   
6. Temperance: controlling our desires and wants in order to achieve a greater good and meet our life goals. Temperance could also be called self-control.
   
   
7. Assertiveness: achieving goals by setting appropriate boundaries, asking for help when we need it, and being confident and positive about our abilities.
   
   
8. Purposefulness: having a vision, clear focus, and concentration on goals.
   
   
9. Modesty: purity of heart in action, especially in regards to dress and speech.
   
   
10. Peacefulness: having a sense of inner calm, no matter what is happening around you.
    
    
11. Service: being helpful to the entire family of man. This can also be called beneficence, which means helping the greater community for the common good.
    
    
12. Clemency: handling disobedience, poor choices, and disputes in a reasonable and consistent manner by not being too strict, but not being too lax either.
    
    
13. Helpfulness: being of service to others; doing thoughtful things that make a difference in their lives.
    
    
14. Kindness: expressing genuine concern about the well-being of others; anticipating their needs.
    
    
15. Good Counsel: seeking advice from a reasonable person.
    
    
16. Responsibility: fulfilling one’s just duties; accepting the consequences of one’s words and actions, intentional and unintentional.
    
    
17. Honesty: sincerity, openness, and truthfulness in one’s works and actions.
    
    
18. Respect: recognizing the worth and dignity of every single human person.
    
    
19. Tolerance: allowing other people to have their opinions about non-essential things and accepting the preferences and ideas that are different from your without compromising your own beliefs.
    
    
20. Perseverance: taking the steps necessary to carry out objectives in spite of difficulties.
    
    
21. Good judgment: thinking rightly about a decision, sound decision.
    
    
22. Gratitude: having a thankful disposition of mind and heart.
    
    
23. Humility: having an awareness that all one’s gifts come from God and appreciation for the gifts of others.
    
    
24. Obedience: assenting to rightful authority without hesitation or resistance.
    
    
25. Patience: remaining calm and not becoming annoyed when dealing with problems or difficult people. This could also mean paying attention to something for a long time without becoming bored or losing interest.
    
    
26. Command: directly acting upon a sound decision.
    
    
27. Truthfulness: acting in a way that inspires confidences and trust; being reliable.
    
    
28. Moderation: attention to balance in one’s life.
    
    
29. Loyalty: accepting the bond implicit in relationships and defending the virtues upheld by Church, family, and country.
    
    
30. Courtesy: treating other people with respect, recognizing that all are made in God's image and likeness.
    
    
31. Affability: being easy to approach and easy to talk to; friendly.
    
    
32. Sincerity: trustfulness in words and actions; honesty and enthusiasm toward others.
    
    
33. Prayerfulness: being still, listening, and being willing to talk to God as a friend.
    
    
34. Magnanimity: seeking with confidence to do great things in God; literally “having a large soul.”
    
    
35. Docility: willingness to be taught.
    
    
36. Industriousness: diligence, especially in work that leads to natural and supernatural maturity.
    
    
37. Foresight: consideration of the consequences of one's action; thinking ahead.
    
    
38. Patriotism: paying due honor and respect to one's country, with a willingness to serve.
    
    
39. Meekness: having a serenity of spirit while focusing on the needs of others.
    
    
40. Circumspection/Tact: careful consideration of circumstances and consequences.

If you find one that is more extensive, feel free to post it. I can maybe add it to OP.

Cool thread, Odyne.

As soon as I saw this I had one in mind: 'professionalism', though strictly speaking I don't think it appears on your list (though it takes in elements of 'Circumspection/Tact', 'Meekness', &c.).

This modern workplace 'virtue' seems to lionize a kind of decorum or system of manners with the positive effect of smoothing business interactions between people. However, much more often I've seen it invoked to try to curb whistleblowers, stop people telling the truth and to demonize any kind of 'conflict', as if being nice is preferable to ensuring that things are being done ethically or effectively in the business. When calling out bullshit is deemed 'unprofessional', then frankly I don't want to be professional - I see it as the soft shield for unethical business practices and an excuse for cowardice.

Terrible virtue. Fuck professionalism.

 

[Ren]

Great thread idea, Odyne.

I'm not sure it can be said that some virtues are 'overrated'. We can surely establish a kind of hierarchy of virtues but only on the basis of an implicit hierarchy of values. For example, on the basis of my own value hierarchy, I would contest that patriotism and prayerfulness are virtues at all.

For the rest, I would perhaps pick good counsel as the least important of the virtues listed. The reason why is simple: I think that if the other virtues are correctly cultivated by people, good counsel becomes redundant and dissolves into the rest. If you take honesty, good judgement, foresight and kindness, for example, I would argue that together they make good counsel redundant for the most part.

The same reasoning can be applied to the other 'overrated' virtues listed, e.g. truthfulness, courtesy, affability, sincerity, etc.

 

[John K]

I would like to know, in your opinion.

I don't know if I feel any on the list are over-rated if they are uncontaminated in use. Some of these can be badly misplaced though and the one I'd pick out as one of the worst for this is
Obedience: assenting to rightful authority without hesitation or resistance.
I think this can easily turn into a serious vice as it's stated here. In many situations there should be no obedience without properly informed judgement and consent, but unfortunately that isn't always so and many an act of idiocy or evil has been done by people just following orders. Of course there are particular situations when it's essential people obey a leader without thinking - in the heat of battle, or in an operating room crisis for example, but those are special circumstances.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

I don't know if I feel any on the list are over-rated if they are uncontaminated in use. Some of these can be badly misplaced though and the one I'd pick out as one of the worst for this is
Obedience: assenting to rightful authority without hesitation or resistance.
I think this can easily turn into a serious vice as it's stated here. In many situations there should be no obedience without properly informed judgement and consent, but unfortunately that isn't always so and many an act of idiocy or evil has been done by people just following orders. Of course there are particular situations when it's essential people obey a leader without thinking - in the heat of battle, or in an operating room crisis for example, but those are special circumstances.

I think you could formulate 'obedience' in a way that mitigates its distaste to Western ears and our cultural legacy of the Holocaust - call it 'ability to trust' or even 'faith'. No human society would function (or at least, function well) without a mutual trust in the hierarchy, and in its own systems, such that 'obedience' is a very necessary pro-social virtue.

 

[Ren]

Obedience: assenting to rightful authority without hesitation or resistance.
I think this can easily turn into a serious vice as it's stated here. In many situations there should be no obedience without properly informed judgement and consent, but unfortunately that isn't always so and many an act of idiocy or evil has been done by people just following orders.

I think the fact obedience is defined here as assenting to 'rightful' authority implies informed judgement and consent are involved, since 'rightful' is a value judgement.

Otherwise we agree, of course.

 

[John K]

I think you could formulate 'obedience' in a way that mitigates its distaste to Western ears and our cultural legacy of the Holocaust - call it 'ability to trust' or even 'faith'. No human society would function (or at least, function well) without a mutual trust in the hierarchy, and in its own systems, such that 'obedience' is a very necessary pro-social virtue.

I agree. I chose this one out of the list because it can easily be misused and then it's a liability rather than an asset - I suspect that happens all too often. We can't do without it though - *drive on the left in the UK!*

 

[Ren]

Fuck professionalism.

Just make sure you never write that on your CV, Hos.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

Just make sure you never write that on your CV, Hos.

 

[Ren]

As soon as I saw this I had one in mind: 'professionalism', though strictly speaking I don't think it appears on your list (though it takes in elements of 'Circumspection/Tact', 'Meekness', &c.).

I would say that responsibility is the virtue closest to professionalism and probably its healthiest embodiment.

 

[John K]

I think the fact obedience is defined here as 'rightful' authority implies informed judgement and consent are involved, since 'rightful' is a value judgement.

Otherwise we agree, of course.

The problem is what the 'rightful' authority consists of - if it's Himmler for example, or more realistically just a dogmatic manager who has directed you to do something you know will go pear-shaped, or some daft regulation passed by idiots. I think that always the moral responsibility lies with the individual ordered to take action - and the responsibility to make sure the directive isn't stupid, etc.

 

[ReasonEnduring]

I think as an atheist -

33. Prayerfulness:

I do very well being a good person without needing a god to give me instruction. Others may need it and I understand but unlike the others its not universal to the human condition. The others should probably apply to some degree regardless of faith.

In the traditional Seven Virtures (against the Seven Vices) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_virtues

I would say Chastity. Be as procreative as you desire, Temperence, Charity, Dilligence, Patience, Kindness and Humility are far more important.

 

[ReasonEnduring]

Terrible virtue. Fuck professionalism.

*hides business suit*

 

[acd]

Cool thread, Odyne.

As soon as I saw this I had one in mind: 'professionalism', though strictly speaking I don't think it appears on your list (though it takes in elements of 'Circumspection/Tact', 'Meekness', &c.).

This modern workplace 'virtue' seems to lionize a kind of decorum or system of manners with the positive effect of smoothing business interactions between people. However, much more often I've seen it invoked to try to curb whistleblowers, stop people telling the truth and to demonize any kind of 'conflict', as if being nice is preferable to ensuring that things are being done ethically or effectively in the business. When calling out bullshit is deemed 'unprofessional', then frankly I don't want to be professional - I see it as the soft shield for unethical business practices and an excuse for cowardice.

Terrible virtue. Fuck professionalism.

We must have different definitions of professionalism. In college I had a professor who lectured us on professionalism. I'll never forget it but he said that if we were ever asked to violate our ethics or go against our training by an employer, we should quit because it would be unprofessional and ultimately career ending to do the wrong thing for a job. He taught journalism and public relations and that always stuck with me throughout my career.

 

[Asa]

Patriotism.

 

[ZcM4xzkjgzCjytBc]

My simplification is doing your job effectively without involving your personal garbage.

 

[ReasonEnduring]

My simplification is doing your job effectively without involving your personal garbage.

Bring on the AI revolution. All the hard work with none of the humanity.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

We must have different definitions of professionalism. In college I had a professor who lectured us on professionalism. I'll never forget it but he said that if we were ever asked to violate our ethics or go against our training by an employer, we should quit because it would be unprofessional and ultimately career ending to do the wrong thing for a job. He taught journalism and public relations and that always stuck with me.

Yeah, the kind of 'professionalism' I'm talking about is a kind of twisted corruption of 'true professionalism', where the rules of etiquette can be used as a weapon against appropriate workplace ethics and standards.

I remember one occasion where we had a departmental meeting (I was a teacher), and our head of faculty was there (two levels of seniority above me). At one point, she said something untrue (I forget what it was) to try to discredit what I was saying, and I exclaimed 'bullshit' and carried on with whatever I was saying. She then tried to have me disciplined for unprofessional behaviour, including at first asking my head of department to make me apologise. She tried to do this by having a sombre sit down with me, her and my head of department. Of course I refused any such apology, and explained to her that if she could justify to the principal why she lied about such a serious matter, then I would justify why I called it bullshit. She dropped the thing, of course.

To her, using a naughty word was much worse than lying about something within her professional competence, and 'professionalism', ironically enough, was the concept she attempted to use to enforce her authority. It's become strangely twisted in a lot of places, where all sorts of illegal and unethical practices are fine, because that's just 'how the game is played', but any breach of etiquette is sackable. That's the 'professionalism' I'm talking about.

 

[ZcM4xzkjgzCjytBc]

Bring on the AI revolution. All the hard work with none of the humanity.

With my experience of people wanting to bring their personal garbage into their job, I'd be okay with it given that I still had, and will always be able to have a job.

 

[ReasonEnduring]

Yeah, the kind of 'professionalism' I'm talking about is a kind of twisted corruption of 'true professionalism', where the rules of etiquette can be used as a weapon against appropriate workplace ethics and standards.

I remember one occasion where we had a departmental meeting (I was a teacher), and our head of faculty was there (two levels of seniority above me). At one point, she said something untrue (I forget what it was) to try to discredit what I was saying, and I exclaimed 'bullshit' and carried on with whatever I was saying. She then tried to have me disciplined for unprofessional behaviour, including at first asking my head of department to make me apologise. She tried to do this by having a sombre sit down with me, her and my head of department. Of course I refused any such apology, and explained to her that if she could justify to the principal why she lied about such a serious matter, then I would justify why I called it bullshit. She dropped the thing, of course.

To her, using a naughty word was much worse than lying about something within her professional competence, and 'professionalism', ironically enough, was the concept she attempted to use to enforce her authority. It's become strangely twisted in a lot of places, where all sorts of illegal and unethical practices are fine, because that's just 'how the game is played', but any breach of etiquette is sackable. That's the 'professionalism' I'm talking about.

I can understand that. Professionalism should never be manadatory. She was an asshat. And illegality is never professional as far as I am concerned, especially from a technical profession where illegality can involve millions of people's personal data...

But from my position as Advocate for the Satanically Residential...

I wear a suit to work every day, despite being a developer. My collegues wear shirts and jeans. And that's fine.

But I find people are more likely to listen to a person warning about the implications of a security leak from a guy in a suit than a guy in jeans and trainers.

If I warn we need more resource or if we do X it will potentially cost the company X thousands if we have a data hack due to insecure practices, I get a better response and people are more like to listen thanks to the suit.

Also I find I can focus better with little rituals like dressing myself in my suit every morning. I put on my 'work mind' which is different from my 'lounge around the house' mind. The suit helps embody that for me. I know it doesn't work for everyone but it helps me.