What is the most overrated virtue?

Ren said:
Great thread idea, Odyne.

I'm not sure it can be said that some virtues are 'overrated'. We can surely establish a kind of hierarchy of virtues but only on the basis of an implicit hierarchy of values. For example, on the basis of my own value hierarchy, I would contest that patriotism and prayerfulness are virtues at all.

For the rest, I would perhaps pick good counsel as the least important of the virtues listed. The reason why is simple: I think that if the other virtues are correctly cultivated by people, good counsel becomes redundant and dissolves into the rest. If you take honesty, good judgement, foresight and kindness, for example, I would argue that together they make good counsel redundant for the most part.

The same reasoning can be applied to the other 'overrated' virtues listed, e.g. truthfulness, courtesy, affability, sincerity, etc.
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Ah!
This.
 
Rit4lin said:
I'm gonna be edgy here and say it's virginity, although primarily female virginity.
Whilst it's not something that is at the forefront of many people's minds, I believe there's definitely an underlying societal attitude to it. I mean there's a fair bit one could say about this, but my primary point is that it astounds me when you hear about young women who sell their virginity for tens of thousands... I mean who's paying for that? Go use the money on a lambo. I think it's just insane
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Would virginity fall under the modesty virtue, you think?
 
Patriotism is an interesting one, because in the States at least it seems less to do with a 'love of country' than it does with a kind of 'performative loyalty'.

At a time when the country feels wracked with internal and external enemies, combined with the increasing impunity with which the state itself can punish its own citizens, it becomes more important to be declarative about one's allegiance to the state and to one's neighbours.

'Performative loyalty' is something that seems to be unusually ingrained in American culture, from the pledge of allegiance to 'thank you for your service'. As a nation without an ethnic basis, this makes sense - historically multi-ethnic states and empires had much more of this performativeness as part of the culture, so as to shore up their internal integrity.

The reality is that mono-ethnic states tend to be more stable on average, and require less of this performativeness for the community to function, and if I were to put my anthropologist's hat on, I would say that the particular brand of American patriotism we see, by contrast, is a particularly crucial part of the structural integrity of the system. It's a declaration; an announcement that says 'I am loyal to the republic'.
 
acd said:
I just get cynical about it because I think patriotism is being warped into a hyper partisan political thing.
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Right!
I considered that too. Actually, when I even hear or see the word "Patriotism," I instantly think of the extremists. Lol. But, if we tone it down to our level, it's not so bad.

acd said:
I was hoping someone would go more into why they think prayerfulness is a virtue. I didn't really consider those reasons.
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Yeah, I think that most people associate prayer with religion. I do not, though. Sometimes it is religious, yes. But, I believe prayer comes in many forms. It's very human. For everyone, it is different. But, it most definitely is not always religious.

My lovely grandma, for example. She often will go to her garden, close her eyes, maybe hold her hands up a bit, and chant. She's not speaking to any god, but she is praying. Perhaps she's praising Mother Nature, or thinking of all her blessings. Or something else. She's happy in those moments, and she's releasing that energy into the world/universe.

...At least, that's how I see it.
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
Patriotism is an interesting one, because in the States at least it seems less to do with a 'love of country' than it does with a kind of 'performative loyalty'.

At a time when the country feels wracked with internal and external enemies, combined with the increasing impunity with which the state itself can punish its own citizens, it becomes more important to be declarative about one's allegiance to the state and to one's neighbours.

'Performative loyalty' is something that seems to be unusually ingrained in American culture, from the pledge of allegiance to 'thank you for your service'. As a nation without an ethnic basis, this makes sense - historically multi-ethnic states and empires had much more of this performativeness as part of the culture, so as to shore up their internal integrity.

The reality is that mono-ethnic states tend to be more stable on average, and require less of this performativeness for the community to function, and if I were to put my anthropologist's hat on, I would say that the particular brand of American patriotism we see, by contrast, is a particularly crucial part of the structural integrity of the system. It's a declaration; an announcement that says 'I am loyal to the republic'.
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BritNi said:
Right!
I considered that too. Actually, when I even hear or see the word "Patriotism," I instantly think of the extremists. Lol. But, if we tone it down to our level, it's not so bad.
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I don't think Patriotism is necessarily a bad thing. I see Nationalism as the extreme wing of Patriotism.

Being proud of your country and your cultural heritage is a good thing. I actually feel sad the UK doesn't respect its historical culture more compared with countries like the US.

I'm fine with multi-culturalism but unforturnately I find it means "Every culture except the host nation's culture."

The English flag COULD be a magnificient symbol of Democracy, tolerance of religion, and the ancient Anglo-Saxons that settled on the British Isles following the collapse of the Roman Empire, uniting in a way not seen until the Modern Era from some states (IE Germany, France).

Instead having an English flag up screams 'I HATE FOREIGNERRRS' to the majority of British Society. That isn't the case with the Scots. Or Welsh. Or Irish.

Hence why I often lean back on my Cornish roots because being English has been lost to the extremists and no one seem bothered in reclaiming it...
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
Patriotism is an interesting one, because in the States at least it seems less to do with a 'love of country' than it does with a kind of 'performative loyalty'.

At a time when the country feels wracked with internal and external enemies, combined with the increasing impunity with which the state itself can punish its own citizens, it becomes more important to be declarative about one's allegiance to the state and to one's neighbours.

'Performative loyalty' is something that seems to be unusually ingrained in American culture, from the pledge of allegiance to 'thank you for your service'. As a nation without an ethnic basis, this makes sense - historically multi-ethnic states and empires had much more of this performativeness as part of the culture, so as to shore up their internal integrity.

The reality is that mono-ethnic states tend to be more stable on average, and require less of this performativeness for the community to function, and if I were to put my anthropologist's hat on, I would say that the particular brand of American patriotism we see, by contrast, is a particularly crucial part of the structural integrity of the system. It's a declaration; an announcement that says 'I am loyal to the republic'.
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That's a great way to put it. Performative loyalty. From where I am, I see a certain party calling the other un American. Then the president is hugging the flag at rallies or conferences. I could go on but I think everyone knows what I mean. It is twisted into this political thing when it should actually unify people. So I guess that's not real patriotism and then I take that all back. Kinda how what you experienced with being called unprofessional was actually the workplace twisting professionalism to suit their needs.
 
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John K said:
I don't know if I feel any on the list are over-rated if they are uncontaminated in use. Some of these can be badly misplaced though and the one I'd pick out as one of the worst for this is
Obedience: assenting to rightful authority without hesitation or resistance.
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I'm with you on this one, @john. Authority can be misplaced and corrupt. I know the definition states "...rightful authority," but rightfulness can be bias. Who is to judge/say?

ReasonEnduring said:
I think as an atheist -

33. Prayerfulness:
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You don't have any type of prayer? What about Thanksgiving? Do you ever sit around with your loved ones and discuss the things you are thankful for?
I think prayer can be absent of God.

ruji said:
My simplification is doing your job effectively without involving your personal garbage.
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there

I think this sums it up for me, too.
Be there and be respectful of your coworkers and the environment.
Do your job thoroughly/effectively.
Do what you're getting paid to do.
Leave home at home, and leave work at work.


There's always more to professionalism, I think. But simplified, as you stated. Those elements will be included.
Everything else is circumstantial.
 
acd said:
That's a great way to put it. Performative loyalty. From where I am, I see a certain party calling the other un American. Then the president is hugging the flag at rallies or conferences. I could go Soon but I think everyone knows what I mean. It is twisted into this political thing when it should actually unify people. So I guess that's not real patriotism and then I take that all back. Kinda how what you experienced with being called unprofessional was actually the workplace twisting professionalism to suit their needs.
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I for one look forward to hugging the American flag when I obtain citizenship. Does it not count if I hide a Union Jack in the back pocket?
 
ReasonEnduring said:
The English flag COULD be a magnificient symbol of Democracy, tolerance of religion, and the ancient Anglo-Saxons that settled on the British Isles following the collapse of the Roman Empire, uniting in a way not seen until the Modern Era from some states (IE Germany, France).
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That makes no sense to me. England wasn't particularly democratic, and certainly not religiously tolerant - all of those things you mentioned happened under the auspices of the United Kingdom.

You know why it's a tainted symbol - it's been used by the far right for a long time now, because it's an ethnic symbol distinct from the civic Union Flag.

The problem with 'English culture' is that its become the global generic. Everybody wears suits and speaks English, and as such our own sense of self has been diluted.
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
That makes no sense to me. England wasn't particularly democratic, and certainly not religiously tolerant - all of those things you mentioned happened under the auspices of the United Kingdom.

You know why it's a tainted symbol - it's been used by the far right for a long time now, because it's an ethnic symbol distinct from the civic Union Flag.

The problem with 'English culture' is that its become the global generic. Everybody wears suits and speaks English, and as such our own sense of self has been diluted.
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Not true, English Parliament is the oldest Parliament. It was there before be brought the Scots in. Also Magna Carta, no man can be a slave. These were BIG changes.

I know and it makes me sad. The US has held onto its identity but we have lost ours, and if Scotland leaves the Union in an Indy Ref then what do we have?

If there is no Union, we are just England, and are we happy with what 'Just England' represents? Not me. Part the reason I'm not super sad leaving the UK, I can see a future without Scotland where England is irrelevant or just seen as cruel or problematic...
 
acd said:
That's a great way to put it. Performative loyalty. From where I am, I see a certain party calling the other un American. Then the president is hugging the flag at rallies or conferences. I could go Soon but I think everyone knows what I mean. It is twisted into this political thing when it should actually unify people. So I guess that's not real patriotism and then I take that all back. Kinda how what you experienced with being called unprofessional was actually the workplace twisting professionalism to suit their needs.
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'Un-American' is a very culturally specific slur that means 'you threaten the integrity of this ideological community'. The French have a similar usage with 'Frenchness' (right, @Ren), but it's not something you tend to see in much of Europe because European polities aren't really founded upon or bound together by any ideological adherence. If someone called a UK politician 'anti-British' or 'un-British', they'd probably be laughed at.

To be used politically to divide the community, therefore, is pretty low in my opinion. It just undermines the community.
 
BritNi said:
You don't have any type of prayer? What about Thanksgiving? Do you ever sit around with your loved ones and discuss the things you are thankful for?
I think prayer can be absent of God.
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Considering I've only had 1 Thanksgiving since moving to the US that will be a no, but mostly because we don't have that in the UK!

I just don't have anything I can put my faith in beyond myself and humanity, and that doesn't need to be prayed to.

I would never challenge anyone on their own beliefs, but I believe if there are gods they aren't benevolent, they don't save the people I care about. I have to do that. The epicurian problem of evil is a big deal for me.

I consider myself very alone in the universe hence why I like interacting with people. Humanity is my faith as I believe humanity has a destiny not yet complete, and I am more taken with what I can build for our species than anything else. That requires a mind in the practical realities rather than spiritual. I do waver on somethings but I'll maybe discuss that somewhere else when relevant when it comes up.
 
ReasonEnduring said:
Not true, English Parliament is the oldest Parliament. It was there before be brought the Scots in. Also Magna Carta, no man can be a slave. These were BIG changes.
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I'm pretty sure the oldest parliament is the Icelandic, but even so 'parliaments' aren't necessarily democratic. 'English parliamentary democracy' was just an oligarchy with a voting system. It's 'something', but I wouldn't call it 'democracy'.

The reality is that England will be fine, because she doesn't need all these overblown displays of patriotism. There are still a lot of very 'rooted' communities and the culture penetrates very deeply into individual psyches. An Englishman in a room full of other Englishmen who he doesn't know will be comfortable on a level that Americans will probably never understand.

And if you're Icelandic in a room full of Icelandic strangers, multiply that comfort by 1000x
 
ReasonEnduring said:
Considering I've only had 1 Thanksgiving since moving to the US that will be a no, but mostly because we don't have that in the UK!

I just don't have anything I can put my faith in beyond myself and humanity, and that doesn't need to be prayed to.

I would never challenge anyone on their own beliefs, but I believe if there are gods they aren't benevolent, they don't save the people I care about. I have to do that. The epicurian problem of evil is a big deal for me.

I consider myself very alone in the universe hence why I like interacting with people. Humanity is my faith as I believe humanity has a destiny not yet complete, and I am more taken with what I can build for our species than anything else. That requires a mind in the practical realities rather than spiritual. I do waver on somethings but I'll maybe discuss that somewhere else when relevant when it comes up.
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Ok. You're still looking at prayer as some type of speak to, and as related to God/gods.

I don't look at it as speak; something that needs to be "prayed to," but as an event /energy which comes from within [yourself] and is released outward.

One of my prayers is dance.
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
I'm pretty sure the oldest parliament is the Icelandic, but even so 'parliaments' aren't necessarily democratic. 'English parliamentary democracy' was just an oligarchy with a voting system. It's 'something', but I wouldn't call it 'democracy'.
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It was lightyears ahead of the Absolute Monarchies of Europe. Context of the time shows how important it was.

Deleted member 16771 said:
The reality is that England will be fine, because she doesn't need all these overblown displays of patriotism. There are still a lot of very 'rooted' communities and the culture penetrates very deeply into individual psyches. An Englishman in a room full of other Englishmen who he doesn't know will be comfortable on a level that Americans will probably never understand.
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Problem is what is English is changing. There are many who are English but identify more with their ancestral cultures than England. They tend not even to speak English around the home.

In a country like the US this isn't a problem as the ethnic Americans were kind of all... butchered... save a few... So everyone is an immigrant of some flavour.

England is different though, you see the polarisation between the rural communities and the cities. Its why Boris wins big despite calling women wearing hijabs 'Letter Boxes'.

There is an antagonism against those who don't conform to a hypothetical ideal of Englishness and if the Scots leave it'll get worse because we aren't a Union anymore. Just English.
 
BritNi said:
Ok. You're still looking at prayer as some type of speak to, and as related to God/gods.

I don't look at it as speak; something that needs to be "prayed to," but as an event /energy which comes from within [yourself] and is released outward.

One of my prayers is dance.
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Interesting why of thinking about it. I suppose I consider any type of prayer needing to be directed at something otherwise its just a physical action.

I read, I write, I code, I cook. But these are all in the mundane to me. Its not spiritual just productive.
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
:expressionless: You're making my brain hurt, R.E.
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Sorry. I've analysed and over analysed a lot of history. I tend to judge a lot based upon historical context.

Certain historic figures I like aren't too bad in context but in a modern context are monsters.

I'm not saying they are good for today, only they were important stepping stones getting to a more enlightnened world.

I see history as a stack of plates and you pull one out it all comes crashing down.
 
ReasonEnduring said:
Sorry. I've analysed and over analysed a lot of history. I tend to judge a lot based upon historical context.

Certain historic figures I like aren't too bad in context but in a modern context are monsters.

I'm not saying they are good for today, only they were important stepping stones getting to a more enlightnened world.

I see history as a stack of plates and you pull one out it all comes crashing down.
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What period are you talking about exactly with regard to this view of the English parliament that you have?
 
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