What is the most overrated virtue?

John K said:
I think we have a problem with pride, because, like love, we only have a single word to cover vastly different concepts. In one of it's manifestations, pride is the most evil of vices - it's putting oneself before all others habitually and absolutely. It's the fault of the narcissist and the megalomaniac who cause such harm and destruction in the world, and it lies at the root of many other vices. It's a crying shame that the same word to descibe this most dark of evils is also used to describe a realistic appreciation of one's own abilities and gifts, or those of our family, or our social groups. The opposite of the first sort of pride is humility, of the second is false modesty.
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True. In French we don't encounter this problem because there are two different words for the kinds of pride you're referring to. The one opposed to humility is orgueil, whereas the one opposed to false modesty is fierté. For example, the French translation of pride as a deadly sin is orgueil.

Fierté, on the other hand, doesn't really have negative connotations except when it is seen as excessive. It's the word we use when we want to say "I'm proud of my accomplishments", etc. But it is also used to describe a trait of a person in general. When present in moderation it is usually seen as a virtue, and the lack of it, certainly as a vice.
 
Ren said:
True. In French we don't encounter this problem because there are two different words for the kinds of pride you're referring to. The one opposed to humility is orgueil, whereas the one opposed to false modesty is fierté. For example, the French translation of pride as a deadly sin is orgueil.

Fierté, on the other hand, doesn't really have negative connotations except when it is seen as excessive. It's the word we use when we want to say "I'm proud of my accomplishments", etc. But it is also used to describe a trait of a person in general. When present in moderation it is usually seen as a virtue, and the lack of it, certainly as a vice.
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I think it's a big advantage to separate these things out like that, because it's easy for the second to justify the first when the word is ambiguous.
 
BritNi said:
I think I follow.
Divided we fall.


Will you elaborate though?

If patriotism is not of importance, would you prefer residing in an anarchic society?

(I hope i said that right...someone please correct me if I'm off).
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I was thinking of people, who are blind to their country's flaws. Thinking their country is the best just because they happen to be born there.
 
Both these types may call themselves patriots:

1. I love my country, it's the best, people criticizing it are unpatriotic.
2. I love my country, because we're free to criticize its flaws and thereby correct them.

Typically in American politics these two types would be on the opposite sides. Most politicians, regardless of affiliation, could say they're patriotic one way or another, working for the good of their country. In America Republicans use patriotism as a buzzword more often though, so most often when I hear someone opposes patriotism, I assume they oppose the Republican discourse that brings patriotism and nationalism close together and defines anything else as unpatriotic. Yet, the people called unpatriotic in that sense may still be patriotic in another.
 
Sandie33 said:
No, don't hide where you've come from in a back pocket, carry it with you when you're sworn in. ;)

With no malice, though, I have questions; which flag holds your alliegence? Or will they both?

You of course do not have to answer that, I'm merely curious. You see, I ask because I'm the chairperson, (advocate is a better word for it), for one of the Five Pillars of the American Legion called the Americanism program.

I meet with groups of people and individuals to explain what the differences and similarities of Americanism, Patriotism, and a list of other "isms" really mean when kept in the context of the Constitution. Locally, I do things like help immigrants fill out their papers, find ESL classes, help them with their first voting experience, and find other tutors/ programs that help them in the transition of becoming a US citizen.

It's amazing to meet these folks and hear their story of why they want to be a citizen of the US and ask if they plan to apply for dual citizenship or are they cutting the cord completely with their home country. (Some have horrific stories of life before arriving in the US.)
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Good question about alliegence.

At no point do British swear alliegence to the British Flag or the government or even the Queen. I am a SUBJECT of her majesty and she affords rights and protections to those under her domain, but I do no owe her or the government anything (except a student loan apparently). The army pledges alliegence to her majesty but I have never been in the army (and I'd probably ignore any constription unless it was to actively defend the UK from invasion which these days is somewhat unlikely).

So I can freely swear alliegence to the US without giving up my love and connections to my homeland.

But I'm going to be too old to fight so I doubt either country would ask me to fight against the other so that's less of a problem. Plus the UK and US are on the same page 99% of the time which also makes it easier. If the US tried conscription I'd do my part provided it was in the defense of the mainland.

If the UK and US ever came to blows (unlikely as it is), I would take into account who was morally right or wrong. If the UK went batsh*t crazy and tried to make the British Empire 2 Electric Boogaloo and masscred millions that wouldn't be a hard choice. If the US invaded the UK though, I know practically I can do nothing so I'd be looking to do more to repair the homeland after the dust settled.

Being a US citizen is extremely powerful consider the might of the US economy and the opportunities so it would take a lot to make me give it up after I got it. And the UK may have its problems but its where my family came from so I'd be loathed to lose that as well.

I'm fine with the rights and responsibilities of being a US citizen and they don't clash with my connection to the UK.
 
Ren said:
I'm quite curious to know why you either don't see magnanimity as a virtue or consider it an 'overrated' virtue.

Interestingly, Aristotle—who invented virtue ethics—and the Greeks in general considered magnanimity the mother of all virtues. The perfectly moral man in Aristotelian ethics is sometimes called the "magnanimous man". He is also the template for Nietzsche's Superman, showing nobility of spirit and pathos of distance, and a kind of disinterested generosity (although this latter trait is debatable as regards Nietzsche's conception).
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I think your explanation explains my reasoning quite nicely
 
ReasonEnduring said:
I'm fine with the rights and responsibilities of being a US citizen and they don't clash with my connection to the UK.
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How do you find the US culture? It’s harder being an introverted type over there than in the UK - the big divide back in Blighty is more on the S/N axis. America has turned extraversion into a virtue and introversion into a vice to some extent, and that can be challenging socially.
 
ReasonEnduring said:
Good question about alliegence.

At no point do British swear alliegence to the British Flag or the government or even the Queen. I am a SUBJECT of her majesty and she affords rights and protections to those under her domain, but I do no owe her or the government anything (except a student loan apparently). The army pledges alliegence to her majesty but I have never been in the army (and I'd probably ignore any constription unless it was to actively defend the UK from invasion which these days is somewhat unlikely).

So I can freely swear alliegence to the US without giving up my love and connections to my homeland.

But I'm going to be too old to fight so I doubt either country would ask me to fight against the other so that's less of a problem. Plus the UK and US are on the same page 99% of the time which also makes it easier. If the US tried conscription I'd do my part provided it was in the defense of the mainland.

If the UK and US ever came to blows (unlikely as it is), I would take into account who was morally right or wrong. If the UK went batsh*t crazy and tried to make the British Empire 2 Electric Boogaloo and masscred millions that wouldn't be a hard choice. If the US invaded the UK though, I know practically I can do nothing so I'd be looking to do more to repair the homeland after the dust settled.

Being a US citizen is extremely powerful consider the might of the US economy and the opportunities so it would take a lot to make me give it up after I got it. And the UK may have its problems but its where my family came from so I'd be loathed to lose that as well.

I'm fine with the rights and responsibilities of being a US citizen and they don't clash with my connection to the UK.
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Thank you for your answering my question. :)
 
Fidicen said:
Both these types may call themselves patriots:

1. I love my country, it's the best, people criticizing it are unpatriotic.
2. I love my country, because we're free to criticize its flaws and thereby correct them.

Typically in American politics these two types would be on the opposite sides. Most politicians, regardless of affiliation, could say they're patriotic one way or another, working for the good of their country. In America Republicans use patriotism as a buzzword more often though, so most often when I hear someone opposes patriotism, I assume they oppose the Republican discourse that brings patriotism and nationalism close together and defines anything else as unpatriotic. Yet, the people called unpatriotic in that sense may still be patriotic in another.
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Yes, it's type 1, I was talking about. Thanks Fidicen!
 
John K said:
How do you find the US culture? It’s harder being an introverted type over there than in the UK - the big divide back in Blighty is more on the S/N axis. America has turned extraversion into a virtue and introversion into a vice to some extent, and that can be challenging socially.
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Well when I get out more I should hopefully enjoy it a bit better (paperwork pending).

I've had some great conversaions with friendly American strangers and I do enjoy that. Its different but still enjoyable. Even met quite a few immigrants from Mexico, Egypt, Asia etc. so it really does feel like a melting pot of people who want to be somewhere better and make better lives for themselves.

I always have home to rettreat though so I can be the best of both worlds - meeting people when I feel sociable but coming home with the wife and just reading/working when I feel drained.
 
ReasonEnduring said:
No problem.

Do you find those who want to keep connections to their home country have similar feelings or do they tend to favour one over the other?
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It really depends on the individual I think. Most of the people I've worked with had hardships in their native country that they wanted to sever the connection permanantly.

However, one woman med student comes back to mind. Chloe we'll call her. Came to the US through her villiage and government funding to study here in the States and then go back to practice medicine in her villiage. While here she decided she'd like dual citizenship so that it would be easier for her to return for more schooling. In doing so she picked the US as her resident country which made her elgible for financial aid. The last I was in contact with her though she'd been doing her "internship" in her villiage.
 
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