"What other people think doesn't matter."

acd said:
I know I resort to 'you are' statements in an argument when I am frustrated and not interested in solving the conflict, but only want to make the other person feel as angry and powerless as I do.
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Maybe when a "You are" statement is directed at myself it may be good to consider that the other person is feeling powerless. To feel powerless is a lot like being backed in a corner. You will fight tooth and nail to escape.

What could I do to help them feel empowered?
 
kiu said:
Maybe when a "You are" statement is directed at myself it may be good to consider that the other person is feeling powerless. What could I do to change that?
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Give them a gun? I've heard it works in America :P
 
kiu said:
Conflict resolution seems to have no solution for that situation except to walk away. Is there an alternative? This is going beyond the original aim of this thread but I'd like to pursue it.

P.S. Trifoilum, I was just using the sentences for my argument. There was no judgement of you or assumption that you would use them. I however, have done that sort of thing out of frustration.
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Hmm, it depends on the intentions. Do you have messages you -have- to let out now? (say, something really urgent). I would say the path to that, and conflict resolution, is different. Very different. even the way you'd like to end it differs according to you, your speaking partner, etc, and going to make things very..different. to spare the other people's feelings or not, deciding to keep your dignity or not, to respect their views or not.....

kiu said:
Well. I like what you've said there. Managing our image means that there is a certain amount of dishonesty in how we present ourselves to others. Therefore, we don't say "I" too often so that we don't appear selfish but there is still a pressing need to express so that only leaves the option of shifting it to "You." Perhaps, we need to reevaluate if saying "I" is indeed selfish. Maybe it's what follows the word "I" that truly indicates selfishness and not "I" in itself since "I" is simply a reference point.
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That's......... shockingly true. I never tried to think about it that way. Well, at least dishonesty in the very basic; as in choosing what we are showing about ourselves -- in the purest of form, that TOO is dishonesty. Yeah, and your following words is, in some ways, true. It's not about 'I' as it is about how we are expressing our 'I'. Self-depreciation and self-grandeur both starts with 'I', no?
As to a lot of human interaction seeming to be verbally abusive, this just comes from observation. People seem to think it's all right to speak in a hurtful way, especially, if there is an argument. There was once a guy who I refused to date because I knew of his argumentative history with a friend which involved, name calling, invalidation, ignoring etc. I asked him if he thought that was normal behaviour and he did. In fact, he thought it was silly to expect people to behave any other way. "That's what people do." I have a problem with this. It is very common behaviour but I don't think it's normal. If we start from the position that it is normal, what incentive do we have to improve?
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Argument >> fighting >> bring your enemy down >> bring your enemy down in ANY and EVERY WAY >> it's okay to use any weapons you have >> including words >> being verbally abusive.

add those train of thoughts with:
Being a good person >> being seen as a good person according to society >> not being loud jerkass >> being secretive about your intentions.

And a good dose of projection,
and I think you'll arrive on his conclusion. :|
 
kiu said:
Maybe when a "You are" statement is directed at myself it may be good to consider that the other person is feeling powerless. What could I do to change that?
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Depends on how fair they are being. If it's someone who is just barraging you with verbal assaults, I would exit the situation and not exacerbate it by responding--because they've reached the level of being totally irrational and their emotions are too out of control to have a conversation with them at that time.

If someone is complaining and saying, "You never clean the house, you never call me, You're rude.. I'd try to be mindful to not take it personally.

Maybe they feel overworked and don't know how to ask for help.. or maybe they feel lonely and don't know how to express that--or maybe they feel their needs aren't being met, and don't know how to speak up.

I'd ask them how they think things could be done better, encouraging them to voice their concerns and take a part in fixing things.
 
@kiu The book [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Verbally-Abusive-Relationship-Recognize-Respond/dp/1558505822"]The Verbally Abusive Relationship[/ame] is amazing at dissecting negative communication.. It talks about invalidation and blaming and passive aggressiveness and undermining and etc. etc.

I realized things about myself and others that I was surprisingly unaware of.
 
acd said:
kiu The book The Verbally Abusive Relationship
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:) Thanks for the recommendation. I have owned that book for many years and it is very helpful so I too recommend it but, I don't think the book gives many coping strategies. My sense is that we should try to avoid the dynamic being set up in the first place. That begins with avoiding certain kinds of people. Then with the people who you do choose to let in, healthy habits have to be established. In a way, that's what this thread is about.

As to empowering the person who feels powerless. I do agree that care has to be taken not to empower a bully. Let's assume the person is not a bully though and that they're just frustrated, wouldn't assisting them to feel empowered serve to calm them and then improve the chances of a happy resolution?
 
kiu said:
As to empowering the person who feels powerless. I do agree that care has to be taken not to empower a bully. Let's assume the person is not a bully though and that they're just frustrated, wouldn't assisting them to feel empowered serve to calm them and then improve the chances of a happy resolution?
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Yes I think so.

First I'd try and calm them by not meeting their frustration with more frustration, by not being defensive. If you show concern for their feelings and a willingness to listen to them and help make things better, I think that's all it takes to empower them. It seems people become stronger and talk about their needs when they feel valued.

I guess the key is not to respond to frustration with frustration. I'm not meaning to sound like I know everything about this, because I tend to be pretty defensive--but I think you have to question that frustation with, "Do I need to delude myself into believing I am right at the expense of this person's feelings and our relationship? or Do I need to adjust something/collaborate to make both parties happy? It seems like when I respond that way, things go much smoother.
 
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I think [MENTION=362]Reon[/MENTION] and [MENTION=3557]IrenaShav[/MENTION] make a good point. It really does depend on what you mean by 'other people.'

I think we all do care what other people think, and I think it is absolute bullshit when people say that they don't. We're all playing the same social game. The very reason why we live the way we live is all a response to the positive or negative reinforcement we receive from other people, individually or from society as a whole. We all want to find a place somewhere in this game where we are comfortable and we use social currency to get where we want to be. Appearing to
 
I've just finished reading this whole thing and I'm not sure whether you all are talking specifically about whether "what other people think about us" matters or "what other people think in general"

Well anyway...I think it most definately does matter, we define ourselves, and our values based on the feedback we receive from others. I found Donkey's caveman analogy to be interesting and probably also very true. However, If we are too open to others opinions of ourselves then we can get negatively affected. It is necessary to find a balance between openness towards the opinions of others without letting it overwhelm us.

In regards to other people's opinions in general, well of course, as already said, if those opinions didn't matter than what would be the point of forums. I think that often we think that our own opinion is the "right way" of thinking so when we come across opposing opinions we experience anger or just ignore the opinion. Although I have been guilty of this I've often found that sometimes I can learn from others opinions, but I need to have patience and examine all the evidence rather than just being biased towards my own opinion. That being said, I have not mastered this skill, and I do definately struggle in conflicts and typically resort to using 'you' statements which escalate the argument.
 
kiu said:
We all do hold back on our praise and express too much of our negative criticism. The result is that good relationships are gradually eroded by hurt feelings. Apologies are made and accepted but before the wound heals, we begin the cycle again until it reaches a point where we don't want to deal with each other. Perhaps, we need to slow down and think about what we are saying. Maybe it's all right to say, "I feel this or that because..." instead of saying "You caused this or that.." or "You are this or that..." It's certainly not easy to change lifetime habits but maybe that subtle change can make a difference to our happiness.
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I think what you said here about damaging relationships and creating a cycle of apologies/hurt feelings was really insightful and spot-on about one of the biggest causes of all sorts of relationships not being able to work out. Communication is everything.

As for the question of whether or not what other people think matters, I would say that on the level of the individual and their locus of control, it only matters as much as they are emotionally susceptable to the opinions of others, combined with as much as the person is willing to take in others' words.
 
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