I just read a series of screen shots from Tumblr. It's really long, earnest, and makes an overbearing point, so I won't repost it, but it did make me think about establishing boundaries with children. The post discussed how the person's mother made it clear that the child did not have to put up with situations like bullies, while the other child's mom made it clear that it was best to just endure the situation until it was over.
There are so many things I want to say here and will try to do so when I’m back to my computer instead of on my phone, but what you brought up here is something @worthy touched on before as well. Another example is this idea that our kids have to share with others, which is a missed opportunity to teach them about boundaries. If another child wants to play with my son’s toy and my son says no, I don’t jump up and tell him he needs to share. I teach him the importance of being polite about it, but he also knows that it’s okay for him and others to say no.
@John K, I really enjoyed reading what you’ve had to say on the subject of boundaries. Historically, I’ve internalized what I like to call “other people’s shit” (hope I don’t offend). I find it helps to think of it that way - I have to own my shit and let others own theirs! We can’t go around trying to own other people’s shit. We’re just not that special. It’s largely unconscious, but by trying to be someone else’s savior what we’re actually doing is shirking the responsibility of owning our own shit because it’s easier to focus on someone else’s rather than our own. I suppose the flip side of this is projection - while we’re so busy owning other people’s shit, we expect them to own and take responsibility for ours in return, again mostly on an unconscious level. The way to fix all this is to establish our own boundaries, stop stepping over the boundaries of others, and everybody just Own Their Shit. Humans are weird.
Thank you for sharing all of this - a lot of us young whipper snappers could learn much from your sage wisdom. Congratulations on your 45th wedding anniversary, btw!
@John K, I really enjoyed reading what you’ve had to say on the subject of boundaries. Historically, I’ve internalized what I like to call “other people’s shit” (hope I don’t offend). I find it helps to think of it that way - I have to own my shit and let others own theirs! We can’t go around trying to own other people’s shit. We’re just not that special. It’s largely unconscious, but by trying to be someone else’s savior what we’re actually doing is shirking the responsibility of owning our own shit because it’s easier to focus on someone else’s rather than our own. I suppose the flip side of this is projection - while we’re so busy owning other people’s shit, we expect them to own and take responsibility for ours in return, again mostly on an unconscious level. The way to fix all this is to establish our own boundaries, stop stepping over the boundaries of others, and everybody just Own Their Shit. Humans are weird
Absofrigginlutely, I have. Not so much with owning up to my own mistakes (I always try to own it when I know I was wrong), but yes, I’ve taken it to the extreme by saying sorry for things like saying no, giving honest feedback, asking for help, etc. One time I actually caught myself apologizing when someone told me to stop apologizing.
Absofrigginlutely, I have. Not so much with owning up to my own mistakes (I always try to own it when I know I was wrong), but yes, I’ve taken it to the extreme by saying sorry for things like saying no, giving honest feedback, asking for help, etc. One time I actually caught myself apologizing when someone told me to stop apologizing.
I think part of the issue is when people 'type away' from the presumed INFJ baseline of the forum, which seems to make them feel forced (or 'want to', I'm not sure) to play up their differences. It's something like a process of 'outgrouping', whereby the individual that is outgrouped doubles down on their 'special identity', because that identity is not entirely rejected. I've seen this happen with minority nationalities in a group of majority nationality - so the 'one American' in a group of Brits will become overly aware of their nationality and will suddenly start behaving in more 'stereotypically American' ways, if their 'Americanity' (a nice absurd word, lol) is over-emphasised by the group. If you tell people that they don't belong in some way, how are they supposed to react? By comparison, maintaining the ingroup identity protects somewhat against this stereotyping if the sense of belonging and acceptance is strong enough - if not, I suppose ingrouped people also autostereotype.
It's hard to know when it might be beneficial or at least helpful in the interim for somebody to promote either outgroup or ingroup ideas. And also the same for a community at large.
Idealistically, everyone should feel some sense of being part of the ingroup. Ironically, INFJs tend to revel in being a part of the outgroup.
Sorta the trickiest part about gathering people up and having them cooperate.
Some people want to be a part of the outgroup while having their foot in the ingroup.
Some people need to feel as though they are part of the ingroup but belong more in the outgroup.
Ultimately if you are in a good state of mind, you can sort of exist in a place that is connected to the ingroup while maintaining autonomy.
so the 'one American' in a group of Brits will become overly aware of their nationality and will suddenly start behaving in more 'stereotypically American' ways,
I've very often found myself in the situation where everybody in the group is disagreeing with me. In the past this was mostly because everyone was a racist, and I wasn't, but now other issues force me to kick myself out of whatever group I thought I belonged to.
@soulareclipse - Thanks for the good example. How do you keep it from backfiring? I'm recalling my mother telling me I didn't have to do anything I didn't want to do. She was trying to set boundaries for peer pressure. She did not mean the math exam or the swimming exam. Hahaha.
@Deleted member 16771 - Your story about your mother is what I was wondering about how what we are taught by parents impacts our ability to create strong boundaries.
hahahhaahahahahaa! Now I'm laughing at the mix up.
@soulareclipse - Thanks for the good example. How do you keep it from backfiring? I'm recalling my mother telling me I didn't have to do anything I didn't want to do. She was trying to set boundaries for peer pressure. She did not mean the math exam or the swimming exam. Hahaha.
Nice! I don’t keep it from backfiring lol. It’s an ongoing process. He’s a strong-willed, highly opinionated, outspoken 7-year-old who has much to learn yet. We both do. It seems to help when he gets a lesson in the fact that it works both ways so if another child says no to him, he has to try to accept that. I’ve pointed out to him that others are more likely to share with him when he shares with them, and it can be fun to take turns playing with different toys. One of my favorite things to say to him is “you get more bees with honey than you do with vinegar”.
@Deleted member 16771 - Your story about your mother is what I was wondering about how what we are taught by parents impacts our ability to create strong boundaries.
For me my mother raised me with the explicit intention of making sure that I was more respectful to women than they were to me, and this gave me some gender issues I had to work through starting about age 24. For her, there was a good reason to do this: she had been the victim of domestic abuse, and so she was terrified of raising an abuser herself, so I was treated as a potential abuser and suffered all of the emotional incest ('you're the man of the house', &c.) that goes with this territory.
Everything was placed in the context of 'her training me' for marriage. If she would scream at me about something, for example, and I would ask why she was doing that, she would say that she was 'training me' to be able to deal with that from a wife. Of course me being violent to her was unacceptable, and I never did this, but her occasional violence to me was completely justified because 'I was bigger than her'. She could kick me, hit me, and square up to me because she felt that she was 'defending herself' whenever I got argumentative as a teenager.
She allowed female violence against me, for example when my niece (my age) attacked me with a barrage of punches when I joked about her being irresponsible. To her, there was a difference between male violence and female violence. One was under no circumstances acceptable, the other was normalised and actually something to be joked about (e.g. she used to delight in the idea of kicking men in their testicles).
The whole 'project' of my upbringing was basically to idolise women and despise men; to believe that 'women know best' at all times and under every circumstance. She made sure that I knew that if I ever got into marital troubles, she would always side with my wife and make sure she had custody, &c. She made sure that I understood how precarious my existence would be as a man, and rightly so in her eyes. She used to tell me this very often, even as a prepubescent boy.
So predictably, when I got into my first serious relationship, I was underequipped to deal with 'crazy'. I thought that women had the right to be however they wanted to be, and my job was just to tolerate it. By this point I was completely immune to female 'crazy' and just thought that this is how they were, and so I would do the whole 'loving reassurance' thing even while being abused. Thankfully we actually lived with her parents, so they were on hand to tell her when she was acting in a completely unreasonable and unfair way towards me - they tamed her 'crazy', but god even just thinking about it I realise that if I had behaved in that way, there would have been absolutely no tolerance at all.
So I agree with you - I was practically raised to have boundary issues with women. Deliberately.
This is why I'm now a bit vigilant (maybe over vigilant) about the whole thing, and actually quite afraid of ever becoming 'a doormat'. I will not tolerate being sworn at, for instance, and expect apologies, but this is a conscious reflex because I know that I've been hardwired to believe that women do not have to take responsibility for their actions.
They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.
But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another’s throats.
Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself.
For me my mother raised me with the explicit intention of making sure that I was more respectful to women than they were to me, and this gave me some gender issues I had to work through starting about age 24. For her, there was a good reason to do this: she had been the victim of domestic abuse, and so she was terrified of raising an abuser herself, so I was treated as a potential abuser and suffered all of the emotional incest ('you're the man of the house', &c.) that goes with this territory.
Ooh, this gave me shivers. My mom started doing the same thing with my INTP brother when he was a teenager, but I think her motive was to have him make up for the things our father should've been there for. Now, as a grown man and father in his mid-30s, my brother does the same thing to himself - overcompensates for our father's mistakes and shortcomings. My brother is so preoccupied with not being a deadbeat that he's overbearing and controlling instead.
@John K Thank you so so so so much for sharing your story and insights! It was such a meaningful and useful read to me, and I'm so glad you shared it (even though it made me tense up so bad I got a migraine )!
The way you described it felt so real to me, and "familiar from the future" in the sense that it describes what I believe and fear is my destiny in life. I know I would think it was worth it in the end, and that in it self scares me.
@John K, I really enjoyed reading what you’ve had to say on the subject of boundaries. Historically, I’ve internalized what I like to call “other people’s shit” (hope I don’t offend). I find it helps to think of it that way - I have to own my shit and let others own theirs! We can’t go around trying to own other people’s shit. We’re just not that special. It’s largely unconscious, but by trying to be someone else’s savior what we’re actually doing is shirking the responsibility of owning our own shit because it’s easier to focus on someone else’s rather than our own. I suppose the flip side of this is projection - while we’re so busy owning other people’s shit, we expect them to own and take responsibility for ours in return, again mostly on an unconscious level. The way to fix all this is to establish our own boundaries, stop stepping over the boundaries of others, and everybody just Own Their Shit. Humans are weird.
Thinking about what you said, and looking at @Asa 's and @Deleted member 16771 's thoughts too, has reminded me of this that I posted a couple of months ago. It was something I picked up on a management consultancy course and is called a Consultancy Spectrum. The main message is to grasp, and internalise (!) the idea that there is a whole range of responses when someone seems to need something from us - it isn't a binary choice between no engagement at all, or utter commitment and ownership of the other's problem. I think this potentially is a really effective conceptual tool in boundary management because like I say in the post, my natural entry point is at the extreme right of this diagram. It ought to be tattooed into every INFJ in their teenage years LOL.
I came across a diagram like this on systems analysis training courses. It's aimed at business consultancy interviewing, but seems to me to be relevant to other types of interaction as well. I go back to it every so often because left to my own natural instincts I tend to start off somewhere on the far right of the spectrum - when often what someone really needs is down towards the left.
It can be pretty stressful on the right hand side and gets more stressful as I inevitably get deeper in. The left hand side feels weird to me, but I find it's often what others actually need rather than some sort of rescue. I need to print this diagram inside my head somewhere.
@Deleted member 16771 Your story made me nauseous. I'm so sorry you were raised that way. It's disgusting. I understand your mom meant well and had her own demons, but you didn't deserve this. You're a good man.
Excuse me, I'm getting flashbacks here. Be back later.
@Deleted member 16771 Your story made me nauseous. I'm so sorry you were raised that way. It's disgusting. I understand your mom meant well and had her own demons, but you didn't deserve this. You're a good man.
Lady J has said almost everything I was thinking .....
It's a credit to you that you come over as such a warm, stable, intelligent, civilised, confident person considering all the negative messages you have suffered.
It’s largely unconscious, but by trying to be someone else’s savior what we’re actually doing is shirking the responsibility of owning our own shit because it’s easier to focus on someone else’s rather than our own. I suppose the flip side of this is projection - while we’re so busy owning other people’s shit, we expect them to own and take responsibility for ours in return, again mostly on an unconscious level. The way to fix all this is to establish our own boundaries, stop stepping over the boundaries of others, and everybody just Own Their Shit. Humans are weird. 
