Why do people believe conspiracy theories? | Page 9 | INFJ Forum

Why do people believe conspiracy theories?

Well i'm going to take it that you are speaking with the best intentions in mind

I'm going to ask you to try and understand that i am also speaking with the best intentions

At the moment your perceptions are that the people who run big pharma and the government mean well

My perception is that the people behind big pharma and the government do not mean well

One of us is wrong

I'm sorry, I thought [MENTION=9350]sentientsixpence[/MENTION] was talking about the beneficial nature of vaccines and how conspiracy theorists try to convince people otherwise. When did she mention the corporations in that post? I might have missed it...
 
Atheists actually are denying god....i think you mean agnostics

I don't agree that lacking belief is denial and this sounds too much like apologetics. Atheists find insufficient evidence for gods just as there is insufficient evidence for flying spaghetti monsters, celestial teacups, and unicorns.

I'm not sure what you're meaning regarding the corporations....are you referring to corporate personhood?

No, I'm not.

per·son·i·fi·ca·tion
the attribution of a personal nature or human characteristics to something nonhuman, or the representation of an abstract quality in human form.

an·thro·po·mor·phism
the attribution of human characteristics or behavior to a god, animal, or object.

I'm stating that you are projecting human characteristics onto corporations and government bodies.

What i am saying is that the regulators AND the government are corrupt and therefore when big pharma do not behave with the best interests of the public at heart there is no one to protect the public because the regulators and the government and big pharma are all in bed together

When you call out "big pharma" as if the entire industry was united, you lose credibility. Each corporation acts in its own financial interest. Understand this: corporations have profit as an interest. For a corporation to be corrupt, parties within it have to intentionally work against profit of the corporation and its shareholders.

When you imply that corporations are evil, this is an example of anthropomorphism.
If you were to imply that corporations were good, this would ALSO be an example of anthropomorphism.
 
Oh, I'm interested in this. Please, can you tell me where mystics a thousand years ago were talking about quantum theory and the interactions of subatomic particles? I would be very much impressed.

Well the ancient greeks were talking about atoms

The mystics have been speaking about the interconnectivity of all things since....well who knows?

Science by the way...grew out of the occult and alchemy

The father of the empirical method was rosicrucian Francis Bacon

Sure they had breakthrough ideas, but compare those break through ideas in dreams to the number of dreams that are complete fantasy. Its a matter of probability, nothing more.

Here's a fun little article for you to enjoy

http://brilliantdreams.com/product/famous-dreams.htm

TWELVE FAMOUS DREAMS
Creativity and Famous Discoveries From Dreams


Throughout history, artists, inventors, writers and scientists have solved problems in their dreams. Brilliant Dreams has compiled a list of twelve famous discoveries and creativity in literature, science, music and even sports attributed to dreams.
Paul McCartney Finds "Yesterday" In a Dream​
paul-mccartney.jpg
Paul McCartney -by John Kelley for the 1968 LP The Beatles
Paul McCartney is one of the most famous singer/ songwriters of all time. According to the Guinness Book of Records, his Beatles song "Yesterday" (1965) has the most cover versions of any song ever written and, according to record label BMI, was performed over seven million times in the 20th century.​
The tune for "Yesterday" came to Paul McCartney in a dream...
The Beatles were in London in 1965 filming Help! and McCartney was staying in a small attic room of his family's house on Wimpole Street. One morning, in a dream he heard a classical string ensemble playing, and, as McCartney tells it:​
"I woke up with a lovely tune in my head. I thought, 'That's great, I wonder what that is?' There was an upright piano next to me, to the right of the bed by the window. I got out of bed, sat at the piano, found G, found F sharp minor 7th -- and that leads you through then to B to E minor, and finally back to E. It all leads forward logically. I liked the melody a lot, but because I'd dreamed it, I couldn't believe I'd written it. I thought, 'No, I've never written anything like this before.' But I had the tune, which was the most magic thing!"​
Beatles-singles-yesterday.jpg
The U.S. single cover for the Beatles album Yesterday.
Sources: Paul McCartney -- Many Years From Now
ir
, Barry Miles (NY, Henry Holt, 1997)
The Committee of Sleep
ir
, D. Barrett, 2001
Wikipedia


Mary Shelley's Frankenstein Inspired By a Dream​
Frankenstein-book-1832.jpg
A rare first edition Frankenstein
In the summer of 1816, nineteen-year-old Mary Wollstonecraft Godwin and her lover, the poet Percy Shelley (whom she married later that year), visited the poet Lord Byron at his villa beside Lake Geneva in Switzerland. Stormy weather frequently forced them indoors, where they and Byron's other guests sometimes read from a volume of ghost stories. One evening, Byron challenged his guests to each write one themselves.​
Mary's story, inspired by a dream, became Frankenstein.
"When I placed my head upon my pillow, I did not sleep, nor could I be said to think... I saw -- with shut eyes, but acute mental vision -- I saw the pale student of unhallowed arts kneeling beside the thing he had put together. I saw the hideous phantasm of a man stretched out, and then, on the working of some powerful engine, show signs of life, and stir with an uneasy, half-vital motion. Frightful must it be; for supremely frightful would be the effect of any human endeavor to mock the stupendous Creator of the world.
...I opened mine in terror. The idea so possessed my mind, that a thrill of fear ran through me, and I wished to exchange the ghastly image of my fancy for the realities around. ...I could not so easily get rid of my hideous phantom; still it haunted me. I must try to think of something else. I recurred to my ghost story -- my tiresome, unlucky ghost story! O! if I could only contrive one which would frighten my reader as I myself had been frightened that night!
Swift as light and as cheering was the idea that broke upon me. 'I have found it! What terrified me will terrify others; and I need only describe the spectre which had haunted me my midnight pillow.' On the morrow I announced that I had thought of a story. I began that day with the words, 'It was on a dreary night of November', making only a transcript of the grim terrors of my waking dream."​
Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley, from her introduction to Frankenstein
ir


Dream Leads to Nobel Prize Otto Loewi (1873-1961), a German born physiologist, won the Nobel Prize for medicine in 1936 for his work on the chemical transmission of nerve impulses. In 1903, Loewi had the idea that there might be a chemical transmission of the nervous impulse rather than an electrical one, which was the common held belief, but he was at a loss on how to prove it. He let the idea slip to the back of his mind until 17 years later he had the following dream. According to Loewi:
otto_loewi_dream.jpg
Dr. Otto Loewi

"The night before Easter Sunday of that year I awoke, turned on the light, and jotted down a few notes on a tiny slip of paper. Then I fell asleep again. It occurred to me at 6 o'clock in the morning that during the night I had written down something most important, but I was unable to decipher the scrawl. The next night, at 3 o'clock, the idea returned. It was the design of an experiment to determine whether or not the hypothesis of chemical transmission that I had uttered 17 years ago was correct. I got up immediately, went to the laboratory, and performed a single experiment on a frog's heart according to the nocturnal design."
It took Loewi a decade to carry out a decisive series of tests to satisfy his critics, but ultimately the result of his initial dream induced experiment became the foundation for the theory of chemical transmission of the nervous impulse and led to a Nobel Prize!
Dr. Loewi noted: "Most so called 'intuitive' discoveries are such associations made in the subconscious."
Sources: The War of the Soups and the Sparks:
ir
The Discovery of Neurotransmitters and the Dispute Over How Nerves Communicate
, Elliot S Valenstein
Otto Loewi, "An Autobiographical Sketch", Perspectives in Biology and Medicine, Autumn, 1960


Abraham Lincoln Dreamt of His Assassination​
President Abraham Lincoln recounted the following dream to his wife just a few days prior to his assassination:​
"About ten days ago, I retired very late. I had been up waiting for important dispatches from the front. I could not have been long in bed when I fell into a slumber, for I was weary.
I soon began to dream.
lincoln-assassination-currier-ives-print.jpg
Currier & Ives print: The Assassination of President Lincoln
Original - The Library of Congress​
There seemed to be a death-like stillness about me. Then I heard subdued sobs, as if a number of people were weeping. I thought I left my bed and wandered downstairs. There the silence was broken by the same pitiful sobbing, but the mourners were invisible. I went from room to room; no living person was in sight, but the same mournful sounds of distress met me as I passed along. It was light in all the rooms; every object was familiar to me; but where were all the people who were grieving as if their hearts would break?​
I was puzzled and alarmed. What could be the meaning of all this? Determined to find the cause of a state of things so mysterious and so shocking, I kept on until I arrived at the East Room, which I entered. There I met with a sickening surprise. Before me was a catafalque, on which rested a corpse wrapped in funeral vestments. Around it were stationed soldiers who were acting as guards; and there was a throng of people, some gazing mournfully upon the corpse whose face was covered, others weeping pitifully.​
'Who is dead in the White House?' I demanded of one of the soldiers "The President" was his answer; "he was killed by an assassin!" Then came a loud burst of grief form the crowd, which awoke me from my dream."​
Lincoln ascribed powerful meanings to his dreams. One of his recurring dreams in particular he considered foretelling and a sign of major events soon to occur. He had this dream the night before his assassination. On the morning of that lamentable day, President Lincoln was discussing matters of the war with General Grant during a cabinet meeting and believed that big news from General Sherman on the front would soon arrive. When Grant asked why he thought so, Lincoln responded:​
"I had a dream last night; and ever since this war began I have had the same dream just before every event of great national importance. It portends some important event that will happen very soon."​
His friend and law partner, Ward Hill Lamon, noted that Byron's "The Dream" was one of Lincoln's favorite poems and he often heard him repeat the following lines:​
Sleep hath its own world,
A boundary between the things misnamed
Death and existence: Sleep hath its own world,
And a wide realm of wild reality,
And dreams in their development have breath,
And tears, and tortures, and the touch of joy;
They leave a weight upon our waking thoughts,
They take a weight from off waking toils,
They do divide our being;​
Source: Recollections of Abraham Lincoln, 1847-1885
ir
, Ward Hill Lamon, 1911​


 
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Kekulé - Dreams of Molecules & Benzene Structure Friedrich August Kekulé von Stradonitz is a remarkable figure in the history of chemistry, specifically organic chemistry.
Twice Kekulé had dreams that led to major discoveries!
Kekulé discovered the tetravalent nature of carbon, the formation of chemical/ organic "Structure Theory", but he did not make this breakthrough by experimentation alone. He had a dream! As he described in a speech given at the Deutsche Chemische Gesellschaft (German Chemical Society):
kekule-benzene-stamp.jpg
kekule-benzene-stamp2.jpg
Kekulé in stamp form, celebrating his discovery of the Benzene structure... attributed to a dream!


"I fell into a reverie, and lo, the atoms were gamboling before my eyes! Whenever, hitherto, these diminutive beings had appeared to me, they had always been in motion; but up to that time, I had never been able to discern the nature of their motion. Now, however, I saw how, frequently, two smaller atoms united to form a pair; how a larger one embraced the two smaller ones; how still larger ones kept hold of three or even four of the smaller; whilst the whole kept whirling in a giddy dance. I saw how the larger ones formed a chain, dragging the smaller ones after them, but only at the ends of the chain. . . The cry of the conductor: “Clapham Road,” awakened me from my dreaming; but I spent part of the night in putting on paper at least sketches of these dream forms. This was the origin of the Structural Theory."
Later, he had a dream that helped him discover that the Benzene molecule, unlike other known organic compounds, had a circular structure rather than a linear one... solving a problem that had been confounding chemists:
"...I was sitting writing on my textbook, but the work did not progress; my thoughts were elsewhere. I turned my chair to the fire and dozed. Again the atoms were gamboling before my eyes. This time the smaller groups kept modestly in the background. My mental eye, rendered more acute by the repeated visions of the kind, could now distinguish larger structures of manifold conformation; long rows sometimes more closely fitted together all twining and twisting in snake-like motion. But look! What was that? One of the snakes had seized hold of its own tail, and the form whirled mockingly before my eyes. As if by a flash of lightning I awoke; and this time also I spent the rest of the night in working out the consequences of the hypothesis."
The snake seizing it's own tail gave Kekulé the circular structure idea he needed to solve the Benzene problem!​
Said an excited Kekulé to his colleagues, “Let us learn to dream!”
Source: From Serendipity, Accidental Discoveries in Science
ir
, by R.M. Roberts, as used by http://www.woodrow.org/teachers/chemistry/institutes/1992/Kekule.html

Madame C.J. Walker - From Dream to Millionaire​
Madame C.J. Walker (1867-1919) is cited by the Guinness Book of Records as the first female American self-made millionaire. She was also the first member of her family born free.​
madame-walker-stamp.jpg
Madame Walker honored on a US Postal Stamp.
Madame Walker founded and built a highly successful African-American cosmetic company that made her a millionaire many times over. Walker was suffering from a scalp infection that caused her to loose most of her hair in the 1890’s. She began experimenting with patented medicines and hair-care products.
Then, she had a dream that solved her problems:
“He answered my prayer, for one night I had a dream, and in that dream a big, black man appeared to me and told me what to mix up in my hair. Some of the remedy was grown in Africa, but I sent for it, mixed it, put it on my scalp, and in a few weeks my hair was coming in faster than it had ever fallen out. I tried it on my friends; it helped them. I made up my mind to begin to sell it.”​
Walker was an entrepreneur, philanthropist and social activist. She best sums up her rise from a childhood in the poor south to being the head of an international, multi-million dollar corporation in the following quote:​
"I am a woman who came from the cotton fields of the South. From there I was promoted to the washtub. From there I was promoted to the cook kitchen. And from there I promoted myself into the business of manufacturing hair goods and preparations....I have built my own factory on my own ground."​


 
howe_sewing_machine_dream.jpg

An early Howe Sewing Machine. Image from the operators manual.
The Sewing Machine​
Elias Howe invented the sewing machine in 1845. He had the idea of a machine with a needle which would go through a piece of cloth but he couldn't figure out exactly how it would work. He first tried using a needle that was pointed at both ends, with an eye in the middle, but it was a failure. Then one night he dreamt he was taken prisoner by a group of natives. They were dancing around him with spears. As he saw them move around him, he noticed that their spears all had holes near their tips.​
When he woke up he realized that the dream had brought the solution to his problem. By locating a hole at the tip of the needle, the thread could be caught after it went through cloth thus making his machine operable.​
He changed his design to incorporate the dream idea and found it worked!
Source: A Popular History of American Invention
ir
.
(Waldemar Kaempffert, ed.) Vol II, New York Scribner's Sons, 1924​

The Strange Dream of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde​
robert-louis-stevenson.jpg

The novelist Robert Louis Stevenson (1850-1894) described dreams as occurring in "that small theater of the brain which we keep brightly lighted all night long."
Stevenson said of his now classic novel The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, it was "conceived, written, re-written, re-re-written, and printed inside ten weeks" in 1886. And was conceived in a dream as he describes:​
"For two days I went about racking my brains for a plot of any sort; and on the second night I dreamed the scene at the window, and a scene afterward split in two, in which Hyde, pursued for some crime, took the powder and underwent the change in the presence of his pursuers."​

His wife related picturesquely how one night Louis cried out horror-stricken, how she woke him up and he protested, "Why did you waken me? I was dreaming a fine bogy-tale!" She also related how he appeared the next morning excitedly exclaiming, "I have got my schilling-shocker -- I have got my schilling-shocker!"​
Stevenson wrote extensively about how his passion for writing interacted with his remarkable dreams and said that, from an early age, his dreams were so vivid and moving that they were more entertaining to him personally than any literature. He learned early in his life that he could dream complete stories and that he could even go back to the same dreams on succeeding nights to give them a different ending. Later he trained himself to remember his dreams and to dream plots for his books.​

Sources:
A Chapter on Dreams by Robert Louis Stevenson, Across the Plains
ir
,
1892, Chattus & Windus
Robert Louis Stevenson a Critical Biography V2
ir
, John Steuart, 2005, Kessinger Publishing
The Committee of Sleep
ir
, D. Barrett, 2001
The World of Dreams. R.L Woods, 1947, New York, Random House​

 
Jack Nicklaus Finds a New Golf Swing in a Dream
Golfer Jack Nicklaus found a new way to hold his golf club in a dream, which he credits to improving his golf game. In 1964, Nicklaus was having a bad slump and routinely shooting in the high seventies. After suddenly regaining top scores he reported:​
jack-nicklaus-1964-golf-cover.jpg
Jack Nicklaus on the cover Golf Magazine -- January 1964.
"Wednesday night I had a dream and it was about my golf swing. I was hitting them pretty good in the dream and all at once I realized I wasn't holding the club the way I've actually been holding it lately. I've been having trouble collapsing my right arm taking the club head away from the ball, but I was doing it perfectly in my sleep. So when I came to the course yesterday morning I tried it the way I did in my dream and it worked. I shot a sixty-eight yesterday and a sixty-five today."​
Sources: Jack Nicklaus, as told to a San Francisco Chronicle reporter, 27 June 1964
The Committee of Sleep
ir
, D. Barrett, 2001​

Mathematical Genius & Dreamer- Srinivasa Ramanujan​
Srinivasa Ramanujan (1887-1920) was one of India's greatest mathematical geniuses. He made substantial contributions to analytical theory of numbers and worked on elliptical functions, continued fractions, and infinite series. In 1914, he was invited in to Cambridge University by the English mathematician GH Hardy who recognized his unconventional genius. He worked there for five years producing startling results and proved over 3,000 theorems in his lifetime.​
According to Ramanujan, inspiration and insight for his work many times came to him in his dreams...
A Hindu goddess, named Namakkal, would appear and present mathematical formulae which he would verify after waking. Such dreams often repeated themselves and the connection with the dream world as a source for his work was constant throughout his life.​
ramanujan-infinite-pi-series.png
Infinite series for π. Example of formulae Ramanujan developed that led to new directions of research.
Source: Wikipedia
Ramanujan describes one of his dreams of mathematical discovery:
"While asleep I had an unusual experience. There was a red screen formed by flowing blood as it were. I was observing it. Suddenly a hand began to write on the screen. I became all attention. That hand wrote a number of results in elliptic integrals. They stuck to my mind. As soon as I woke up, I committed them to writing..."​
Source: Ramanujan, the Man and the Mathematician, S. R. Ranganathan, 1967​

Subliminal Clues From Fossil Perceived In Dream​
Louis Agassiz (1807-1883) was a Swiss born naturalist, zoologist, geologist, and teacher who emigrated to the US in 1846. He trained and influenced a generation of American zoologists and paleontologists and is one of the founding fathers of the modern American scientific tradition​
While Agassiz was working on his vast work "Poissons Fossiles" a list of all know fossil fish, he came across a specimen in a stone slab which he was, at first, unable to figure out. He hesitated to classify it and extract it since an incorrect approach could ruin the specimen. At that time, Agassiz reports having a dream three nights in a row in which he saw the fish in perfect original condition. The first two nights -- being unprepared -- he did not record his image.
agassiz-fossil-fish.jpg
Illustration of fossil fish from Les Poissons Fossiles, Louis Agassiz, 1843. Source: Strange Science​
By the third night he was ready with pen and paper, and when the fish appeared again in the dream he drew it in the dark, still half asleep. The next day he looked at his drawing which had remarkably different features from the ones he had been working out, hastened to his laboratory and extracting the fossil realized it corresponded exactly to his dream.
Agassiz' creative dream of the fossilized fish may have been induced by having perceived unconsciously a clue in the stone slab which he had ignored while awake.​
His dream may have emphasized and drawn his attention to stimuli he had perceived subliminally while he was awake!
Source: Interview with Nikola Tesla, speaking of Agassiz, Tesla, The Modern Sorcerer
ir
, Daniel Blair Stewart​


Dreams and The King of Horror​
stephen-king-bw.jpg
Stephen King (press photo)
Novelist Stephen King describes how dreams affect his writings in an interview with UK reporter Stan Nicholls:​
Nicholls: "If the inspiration for Misery didn't come from a real-life incident, where did it come from?"​
King: "Like the ideas for some of my other novels, that came to me in a dream. In fact, it happened when I was on Concord, flying over here, to Brown's. I fell asleep on the plane, and dreamt about a woman who held a writer prisoner and killed him, skinned him, fed the remains to her pig and bound his novel in human skin. His skin, the writer's skin. I said to myself, 'I have to write this story.' Of course, the plot changed quite a bit in the telling. But I wrote the first forty or fifty pages right on the landing here, between the ground floor and the first floor of the hotel."​
"Another time, when I got road-blocked in my novel It, I had a dream about leeches inside discarded refrigerators. I immediately woke up and thought, 'That is where this is supposed to go.' Dreams are just another part of life. To me, it's like seeing something on the street you can use in your fiction. You take it and plug it right in. Writers are scavengers by nature."​
Nicholls comments: "This could explain the line in Bag of Bones that goes,
Perhaps in dreams everyone is a novelist
."​
During an interview with Naomi Epel for her book Writers Dreaming, King described his use of dreams this way:​
"I've always used dreams the way you'd use mirrors to look at something you couldn't see head-on, the way that you use a mirror to look at your hair in the back. To me that's what dreams are supposed to do. I think that dreams are a way that people's minds illustrate the nature of their problems. Or maybe even illustrate the answers to their problems in symbolic language."​
[Anne Rice, another leading horror writer, also noted she uses dreams -- both fortuitous ones and those more intentionally provided for her books.]​
Sources: Interview with Stan Nicholls, SFX Magazine no 45; December 1998
Writers Dreaming
ir
: 26 Writers Talk About Their Dreams and the Creative Process , Naomi Epel, 1994
The Committee of Sleep
ir
, D. Barrett, 2001
 
so conspiracy theorists are uneducated!

That's their problem is it?

Ok, sorry I can see why you thought I meant that. Let me clarify. I meant to say educated in that specific topic of discussion. For example, I once was looking into the conspiracy theory about the supposed end of the planet on 12/21/2012. One of the supposed reasons was a supposed planet X or Nirubi (I think was the name) when scientifically there is no evidence of such a planet. We would be able to notice such a gravitational interaction. However, they convinced many people that such a thing existed, and that's because both the theorists and the general people had no experience in astrophysics, at least so far as relative value.
 
I don't agree that lacking belief is denial and this sounds too much like apologetics. Atheists find insufficient evidence for gods just as there is insufficient evidence for flying spaghetti monsters, celestial teacups, and unicorns.

Doesn't that depend on how we define God?

No, I'm not.

per·son·i·fi·ca·tion
the attribution of a personal nature or human characteristics to something nonhuman, or the representation of an abstract quality in human form.

an·thro·po·mor·phism
the attribution of human characteristics or behavior to a god, animal, or object.

I'm stating that you are projecting human characteristics onto corporations and government bodies.

Well lets go with that....i do know what those terms mean by the way lol

Corporations and government bodies are simply entities in a larger control structure. They are subordinated to the will of that structure

This was always the case going back to the east india company which was really an exstention of the british crown much like the elizabethan privateers were (government pirates); this was shown when the british government stepped in and took over India from the company in the wake of protests

The corporations have been consolidating into larger and larger entites owned by a smaller and smaller number of people leading to 'monopoly capitalism' for example the mainstream media is all owned by i think its now 5 mega corporations because the corrupt government is not using anti-rackateering or anti -trust laws to prevent too big to fail sform developing allowing them to take over our society and hold us to ransom

So if we know the will of the control structure we can get a pretty good insight into how those entities will behave

When you call out "big pharma" as if the entire industry was united, you lose credibility. Each corporation acts in its own financial interest. Understand this: corporations have profit as an interest. For a corporation to be corrupt, parties within it have to intentionally work against profit of the corporation and its shareholders.

Elsewhere on the forum i have criticised the 'profit motive' as a driving force in our society

However where it all gets very interesting is when you put down the textbook and step into the real world and start looking at who the shareholders are

When you imply that corporations are evil, this is an example of anthropomorphism.
If you were to imply that corporations were good, this would ALSO be an example of anthropomorphism.

What....so because i didn't say corporations are evil in order to try and frame me for saying something i didn't say you have had to say that i 'imply' that corporatios are evil

Now what you are doing there...and i see this a lot actually...is you are not listening to what i am actually saying but rather imposing what you wish i was saying onto what i'm saying

However regarding the nature of the corporate model you might be interested to know that an FBI criminal profiler profiled the corporate model and declared it was a psychopath because it lacks any mechanism to take into account externalities such as workers, people harmed by its products or the environment

This can be found in the documantary 'the corporation' which i believe is on youtube
 
Ok, sorry I can see why you thought I meant that. Let me clarify. I meant to say educated in that specific topic of discussion. For example, I once was looking into the conspiracy theory about the supposed end of the planet on 12/21/2012. One of the supposed reasons was a supposed planet X or Nirubi (I think was the name) when scientifically there is no evidence of such a planet. We would be able to notice such a gravitational interaction. However, they convinced many people that such a thing existed, and that's because both the theorists and the general people had no experience in astrophysics, at least so far as relative value.

Let the buyer beware

That goes for EVERYTHING

Know whats in the food you pick up off the shop shelf, know whats in the water you drink, know whats in the theory someone is giving you, know where your news is coming from, know the bias of articles you read, know whats in your vaccines etc

The more you can know the better but if you only listen to the government i guarantee you you will remove yourself very rapidly from objective reality
 
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The problem there is that when we don't agree on the truth, we also don't agree on the harm.

As an example, I think it's quite harmful to tell people that vaccines are part of a government conspiracy and that they cause autism, infertility, or AIDS. The negative consequences of this lie are deep and far reaching. So, while it would be nice to "bury my head in the sand" (and just ignore or dismiss conspiracy theorists as fringe lunatics), occasionally some of their stories gain traction, go "viral", and cause severe harm en masse. When we see that this is happening and stand by in silence, we become accomplice to this harm.

Yeah, that's why I think the passive, let alone and left alone version of libertarianism or neo-liberalism are a failure, you hear that there's an epidemic of whooping cough in California because the scare stories about vaccines have gained traction there?
 
Good to have you back, @sentientsixpence!

When you call out "big pharma" as if the entire industry was united, you lose credibility. Each corporation acts in its own financial interest. Understand this: corporations have profit as an interest. For a corporation to be corrupt, parties within it have to intentionally work against profit of the corporation and its shareholders.

Well, actually muir is partly right in this instance.

The entire drug industry is somewhat united behind the scenes. The vast majority of pharmaceutical research and drugs are actually developed by government funded university laboratories. The drug companies, like Johnson & Johnson or Pfzier, don't really come in until later, when they purchase the medication at its semi-final stage and carry out their own trials and introduce a molecule or two for the sole purpose of being able to purchase a patent, along with the exclusive rights to manufacture and distribute the drug.

Now, do I think that just because the government funds these labs means that there is some nefarious purpose? No, not really. The potential for fucking with the minds of the public is there, I suppose, but I can't make heads or tails of the arguments as to why they'd do this in such complicated, round-about manner (and please, muir, this is not an invitation for you to post articles with your personal theories).

So, yes, in a sense I agree with the general idea that there definitely something stinky with Big Pharma... but for a provable and profit-oriented reason.

It boils down to those gilt-edged patents that they're scrambling for and the fact that the government seems largely compliant in this. On one hand, governments are usually the first to acknowledge that people around the world need life-saving medicine, but on the other, they will viciously persecute people for attempting to step around the pharmaceutical companies and manufacture and distribute affordable medication.

That's dirty, dirty business and this is something that I think we should talk about more. However, the problem always seems to be that these issues get buried under the more, er...'advanced' theories that escalate the issue and make it hard for people to take this situation seriously because what often happens is, instead of just talking about 'pharmaceutical companies' someone introduces 'lizard people' and 'cabals' into the equation and it completely undermines all credibility.

If I was a more suspicious-minded person, I'd say this was done purposely by 'them.' ;)

Or maybe it's just certain conspiracy theorists digging a ditch under themselves by taking a kernel of truth and taking it on a journey to places that just don't stand up to reason.
 
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Yeah, that's why I think the passive, let alone and left alone version of libertarianism or neo-liberalism are a failure, you hear that there's an epidemic of whooping cough in California because the scare stories about vaccines have gained traction there?

http://www.naturalnews.com/043330_vaccines_whooping_cough_disease_outbreaks.html

[h=1]Vaccine lies: Whooping cough outbreaks being triggered by vaccinated children[/h] Thursday, December 26, 2013 by: Ethan A. Huff, staff writer
Tags: vaccines, whooping cough, disease outbreaks


It is a common myth perpetuated by both the entrenched system of monopolistic medicine and the mainstream media that unvaccinated children are the social scourge responsible for triggering outbreaks of rare diseases like pertussis (whooping cough), measles and shingles. But the scientific literature suggests otherwise, showing in many cases that vaccinated children are the ones largely responsible for triggering and spreading disease.

A recent study published in the journal Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences for instance, found that, despite more than 50 years of population-wide vaccination, cases of whooping cough are on the rise. The culprit? Antigens of Bordetella pertussis that not only are completely ineffective at preventing infection with Bordetella parapertussis, a whooping cough bacterium similar to B. pertussis, but actually promote it by interfering with the body's natural infection clearance protocols.

"[W]e show that aP [whooping cough] vaccination impedes host immunity against B. parapertussis-measured as reduced lung inflammatory and neutrophil responses," wrote the authors. "[W]e conclude that aP vaccination interferes with the optimal clearance of B. parapertussis and enhances the performance of this pathogen. Our data raise the possibility that widespread aP vaccination can create hosts more susceptible to B. parapertussis infection."

In other words, children who are vaccinated for whooping cough actually suffer from decreased immunity and are more susceptible to B. parapertussis infection than their unvaccinated peers. Vaccinated children, in essence, are the carriers of disease when it comes to all these whooping cough outbreaks, infecting other mostly vaccinated children and putting massive strain on local healthcare resources.

Oddly enough, it is the unvaccinated children that remain largely healthy during these outbreaks, as their immune systems are not crippled by exposure to artificial vaccine antigens. This was definitely the case as far as http://www.naturalnews.com, where more than 600 confirmed cases of whooping cough, a 10-fold increase over previous years, was documented. As you may recall, most of those infected with the disease had already been vaccinated for it.

More recently, a study funded by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) verified that the whooping cough vaccine, which is also contained in the combination DTaP injection, does not even prevent the spread of whooping cough as commonly claimed. On the contrary, the vaccine allowed the disease to fester inside the bodies of test baboons for up to five weeks, debunking a widely believed myth.

"[These findings] could explain the increase in pertussis that we're seeing in the U.S.," admitted FDA researcher Tod Merkel, affirming what many are now suggesting about the dangers of the whooping cough vaccine.

[h=1]Should parents who vaccinate their children be held liable for spreading disease?[/h] What all this suggests, of course, is that the ongoing demonization of parents who refuse to vaccinate their children is completely misdirected. If it is public health that we are all concerned about in the vaccine debate, then it appears as though parents who choose to vaccinate are the ones about who we all need to be concerned.

Perhaps the time is ripe to set the record straight and put blame where it is truly due. The tables have turned, and based on the latest available science, it is now abundantly clear that parents who vaccinate are the ones putting everyone else's children at risk.

Will the pro-vaccine lobby, which is all too quick to demand that non-vaccinating parents be held liable for putting others at risk, now be held to the same standard?

Sources for this article include:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

http://www.naturalnews.com

http://www.nbcnews.com

http://science.naturalnews.com




 
That's a good question. Personally I do agree that it does serve a purpose. It helps to come up with ideas that are unconventional, and are sometimes correct. As for the rest of their ideas, really its a small scale thing all around. They like to spread misinformation about so many things which obviously confuses the truth, but for those of our population that are actually educated, its not a problem. However, a lot of people (at least the ones that I know) recognize conspiracy theorists as too eccentric to be a reliable source of information, even though they themselves might not be educated on the subject. I would almost think someone looks into conspiracy theories because they almost want to believe it.
Really, I think conspiracy theorists do a lot of screaming and yelling, but of the people I know, they know better than to fall prey to conspiracy theorists smooth words and emotional videos. However I don't know a lot of people, and the people I consider friends are all people who are in college which is of course a biased sample.

Well misinformation and decisions based upon it are one important consequence, the example of people opting out of vaccination programmes in sufficient numbers for diseases thought to be eliminated or controlled to once again threaten populations is a good one.

The point I was trying to make is that for me works or deeds matter a lot more to me than words or creed, yes, it still matters if do the right thing for the wrong reasons but a little less than doing the wrong thing for the right reasons or the wrong thing for the wrong reasons if that makes sense.

Relates in some ways to a book I once read on the theory and knowledge base of practitioners in therapy or helping professions, in discussing the diversity of opinions, schools of thought etc. it asked important questions like if someone is motivated to change or achieves positive change does it matter if its rational goal setting, a higher power or "the troll on the hill" which does the trick?

In that instance the author wrote that it was important whether or not the change was repeatable or sustainable or if the "good" was isolated, limited, a "one off", accidential and coincidential.
 
Good to have you back, @sentientsixpence!



Well, actually muir is partly right in this instance.

The entire drug industry is somewhat united behind the scenes. The vast majority of pharmaceutical research and drugs are actually developed by government funded university laboratories. The drug companies, like Johnson & Johnson or Pfzier, don't really come in until later, when they purchase the medication at its semi-final stage and carry out their own trials and introduce a molecule or two for the sole purpose of being able to purchase a patent, along with the exclusive rights to manufacture and distribute the drug.

Now, do I think that just because the government funds these labs means that there is some nefarious purpose? No, not really. The potential for fucking with the minds of the public is there, I suppose, but I can't make heads or tails of the arguments as to why they'd do this in such complicated, round-about manner (and please, muir, this is not an invitation for you to post articles with your personal theories).

So, yes, in a sense I agree with the general idea that there definitely something stinky with Big Pharma... but for a provable and profit-oriented reason.

It boils down to those gilt-edged patents that they're scrambling for and the fact that the government seems largely compliant in this. On one hand, governments are usually the first to acknowledge that people around the world need life-saving medicine, but on the other, they will viciously persecute people for attempting to step around the pharmaceutical companies and manufacture and distribute affordable medication.

That's dirty, dirty business and this is something that I think we should talk about more. However, the problem always seems to be that these issues get buried under the more, er...'advanced' theories that escalate the issue and make it hard for people to make heads or tails of the situation because instead of just talking about 'pharmaceutical companies' you introduce 'lizard people' and 'cabals' into the equation and it completely undermines all credibility.

If I was a more suspicious-minded person, I'd say this was done purposely by 'them.' ;)

I don't think anyone on this forum really has talked about 'lizard men'

I do use the term 'cabal' because it is derived from the word cabala and i know that the people i refer to when using the word 'cabal' are indeed cabalists

Regarding big pharma it is not all about patents their frauds cover a wide range of crimes and these scandals go all the way upto government and the world health organisation

https://secure.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/02/gsk-fraud_n_1643186.html

[h=1]GlaxoSmithKline Settles Largest Health Care Fraud Case In U.S. History[/h] AP | By JESSE J. HOLLAND Posted: 07/02/2012 10:44 am Updated: 07/02/2012 1:38 pm



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WASHINGTON (AP) — GlaxoSmithKline LLC will pay $3 billion and plead guilty to promoting two popular drugs for unapproved uses and to failing to disclose important safety information on a third in the largest health care fraud settlement in U.S. history, the Justice Department said Monday.
The $3 billion fine also will be the largest penalty ever paid by a drug company, Deputy Attorney General James M. Cole said. The corporation also agreed to be monitored by government officials for five years to attempt to ensure the company's compliance, Cole said.
"Let me be clear, we will not tolerate health care fraud," Cole told a news conference at the Justice Department. He would not say whether any company executives were under investigation. The company's guilty plea and sentence have to be approved by a federal court in Massachusetts.
"For far too long, we have heard that the pharmaceutical industry views these settlements merely as the cost of doing business," Acting Assistant Attorney General Stuart F. Delery, head of Justice's civil division, said at the news conference. "That is why this administration is committed to using every available tool to defeat health care fraud."
Delery added, "Today's resolution seeks not only to punish wrongdoing and recover taxpayer dollars, but to ensure GSK's future compliance with the law." He noted that a similar recent settlement with Abbott Laboratories also included continuing compliance monitoring.
It is illegal to promote uses for a drug that have not been approved by the Food and Drug Administration — a practice known as off-label marketing.
Prosecutors said GlaxoSmithKline illegally promoted the drug Paxil for treating depression in children from April 1998 to August 2003, even though the FDA never approved it for anyone under age 18. The corporation also promoted the drug Wellbutrin from January 1999 to December 2003 for weight loss, the treatment of sexual dysfunction, substance addictions and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, although it was only approved for treatment of major depressive disorder.

Justice Department officials also said that between 2001 and 2007 GlaxoSmithKline failed to report to the FDA on safety data from certain post-marketing studies and from two studies of the cardiovascular safety of the diabetes drug Avandia. Since 2007, the FDA has added warnings to the Avandia label to alert doctors about potential increased risk of congestive heart failure and heart attack.
The drug corporation also agreed to resolve civil liability for promoting the drugs Paxil, Wellbutrin, Advair, Lamictal and Zofran for off-label, non-covered uses. The company also resolved accusations that it paid kickbacks to doctors to prescribe those drugs as well as the drugs Imitrex, Lotronex, Flovent and Valtrex.
"GSK's sales force bribed physicians to prescribe GSK products using every imaginable form of high priced entertainment, from Hawaiian vacations to paying doctors millions of dollars to go on speaking tours to a European pheasant hunt to tickets to Madonna concerts, and this is just to name a few," said Carmin M. Ortiz, U.S. attorney in Massachusetts.
Of the penalties, $1 billion covers criminal fines and forfeitures and $2 billion is for civil settlements with the federal government and the state governments of Massachusetts and Colorado.
 
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The distance between Andrew Wakefield and David Icke is not as great as you might like to imagine.
 
The distance between Andrew Wakefield and David Icke is not as great as you might like to imagine.

Yeah they are both being vindicated more and more with each passing month
 
Let the buyer beware

That goes for EVERYTHING

Know whats in the food you pick up off the shop shelf, know whats in the water you drink, know whats in the theory someone is giving you, know where your news is coming from, know the bias of articles you read, know whats in your vaccines etc

The more you can know the better but if you only listen to the government i guarantee you you will remove yourself very rapidly from objective reality

But that's the funny thing. According to you, the government and the public sources of information are all run by this group that is your conspiracy theory. According to you, its all run by money.
I don't read government stuff. Like I said, I don't like politics. However, most of what I read are scientific American, Argonne now, Discover, and college as well as a few internet sites I like.