Why I am probably not going to Uganda anytime soon...

[Satya]

I'm rather surprised to see you take such a position. Do you think it would be a good practice to just go around overthrowing all the governments that we find too tyrannical for our taste? Or only those small enough to pick on?

As I said, what America can do and what America should do are not always the same thing. Regardless of whether or not America acts, it will probably lead to some negative consequence in the future. It comes down to weighing the consequences. For example, should we allow Iran to obtain nuclear weapons? We probably could fight and win a war against Iran, and the consequences would be considerably higher in the future if we allow them to obtain nuclear weapons. Should we allow China to continue to oppress Tibetans? While it is a travesty of human rights that we do nothing, most of our manufactured goods are now coming from China and our economy is deeply intertwined with theirs, and we probably could not win a war against them. America has to play with the cards it is dealt, but when we have the chance to knock out a vicious player who could be a threat to us later....why not?

 

[Satya]

But really, I will immediately stop buying all Ugandan products and give myself 50 lashes for being from the US because somehow this is all our fault. (?) Point being, what are we supposed to do? Nuke the place? Feeling a bit powerless yet appalled at the same time.

For one, as I said before, Exodus International gave a conference in Uganda that is cited for having lead to this bill. They strongly support the criminalization of homosexuality, and while they may not publicly condone execution, they aren't exactly going out of their way to condemn it either. So America has had a part in this by allowing organizations like Exodus International to have any clout.

 

[bamf]

As I said, what America can do and what America should do are not always the same thing. Regardless of whether or not America acts, it will probably lead to some negative consequence in the future. It comes down to weighing the consequences. For example, should we allow Iran to obtain nuclear weapons? We probably could fight and win a war against Iran, and the consequences would be considerably higher in the future if we allow them to obtain nuclear weapons. Should we allow China to continue to oppress Tibetans? While it is a travesty of human rights that we do nothing, most of our manufactured goods are now coming from China and our economy is deeply intertwined with theirs, and we probably could not win a war against them. America has to play with the cards it is dealt, but when we have the chance to knock out a vicious player who could be a threat to us later....why not?

The problem with Iran getting nuclear weapons isn't the danger of Iran using them. To do so would being signing their own death threat. If Iran launched a nuke, the rest of the world's nukes would be raining down on them big time. The danger that comes from Iran having nuclear weapons is the 'possibility' that they slip into the wrong hands of extremists who are not a national military nor have national ties. Be even then, Iran isn't stupid. If a nuclear weapon was used by a terrorist cell and the world knows Iran has nuclear weapons, the blame would easily fall on Iran. Them having nuclear weapons is more of clout and a "Look as us, we're big kids now" statement. It could also be similar to Saddam who used the WMD arguement to appear strong when in reality they had destroyed their research facilities and would take at least 20 years to be anywhere near obtaining nuclear capabilities, let a lone nuclear warheads.

 

[testing]

For one, as I said before, Exodus International gave a conference in Uganda that is cited for having lead to this bill. They strongly support the criminalization of homosexuality, and while they may not publicly condone execution, they aren't exactly going out of their way to condemn it either. So America has had a part in this by allowing organizations like Exodus International to have any clout.

I had never even heard of Exodus International. Really, how much clout do they have? I did briefly view their website, evidently they are one of those nutter organizations devoted to reforming gay people. You think they drove this effort in Uganda? Maybe... but how often does a charity (which I guess this is, of sorts...) have that much influence over a sovereign govenment? Uganda's or US's? I mean, the sentiment has to be there already, doesn't it? They seem like the extreme minority to me. Loud, but not representative of most Americans I know. (Even in my "traditional" family.)

Obviously, I am not aware of all the facts but would still hesitate to say that this group has much clout.

(and I hope you were't offended by the Key West comment, I happen to absolutely adore the place and it's raining here, so I would really really really like to go ther, but I did not mean to be too flippant or anything.)

 

[Kavalan]

I had never even heard of Exodus International. Really, how much clout do they have? I did briefly view their website, evidently they are one of those nutter organizations devoted to reforming gay people. You think they drove this effort in Uganda? Maybe... but how often does a charity (which I guess this is, of sorts...) have that much influence over a sovereign govenment? Uganda's or US's? I mean, the sentiment has to be there already, doesn't it? They seem like the extreme minority to me. Loud, but not representative of most Americans I know. (Even in my "traditional" family.)

Obviously, I am not aware of all the facts but would still hesitate to say that this group has much clout.

(and I hope you were't offended by the Key West comment, I happen to absolutely adore the place and it's raining here, so I would really really really like to go ther, but I did not mean to be too flippant or anything.)

You'd be surprised think Jim Jones from the seventies and the C Street Center for today... It only take one person in power to listen to these people and they have all the power they need to do whatever they want.

 

[testing]

I really wanted more information on this topic, and I found this post: http://blog.exodusinternational.org...ment-poised-to-harshly-prosecute-homosexuals/

from an Exodus international member.

I still think they're nutters, but it does not seem they made the Ugandan government do this; they seem to be speaking against this new law, from what I read in the above post.

In fact, here's a quote from the Exodus guy:
"This sweeping, hateful, public policy being promoted threatens anyone struggling with same sex attractions, and their loved ones, with death or imprisonment."

See, evidently, Exodus thinks they are helping gay people. By trying to convert them to straight. And they are not violent and human rights abusing, like the Ugandan law clearly is. A bit misguided, maybe.

At least, according to that post and the website, which is all the information I have.

 

[Satya]

(and I hope you were't offended by the Key West comment, I happen to absolutely adore the place and it's raining here, so I would really really really like to go ther, but I did not mean to be too flippant or anything.)

Not at all. I'm planning to move to Florida next year. Probably Tallahassee, but I'll have to visit Key West some day.

 

[Satya]

I really wanted more information on this topic, and I found this post: http://blog.exodusinternational.org...ment-poised-to-harshly-prosecute-homosexuals/

from an Exodus international member.

I still think they're nutters, but it does not seem they made the Ugandan government do this; they seem to be speaking against this new law, from what I read in the above post.

In fact, here's a quote from the Exodus guy:
"This sweeping, hateful, public policy being promoted threatens anyone struggling with same sex attractions, and their loved ones, with death or imprisonment."

See, evidently, Exodus thinks they are helping gay people. By trying to convert them to straight. And they are not violent and human rights abusing, like the Ugandan law clearly is. A bit misguided, maybe.

At least, according to that post and the website, which is all the information I have.

Hm...I guess I read too much gay propaganda.

http://www.tips-q.com/1524181-uganda-planning-gay-genocide

 

[testing]

Hm...I guess I read too much gay propaganda.

http://www.tips-q.com/1524181-uganda-planning-gay-genocide

Yikes!!

Yeah, not sure what to believe at this point, as that post is totally different from the ones on the Exodus site.... to hear them say it, half of the Exodus people used to be quite enthusiastically gay themselves, and are just trying to help their brethren escape that sordid lifestyle. (That is their POV, not mine.) Like I said, they sound misguided but not violent.

I guess it just goes to show you have to look carefully to know what's really going on in any given situation, and at this point I am not convinced I have a clear picture. Ugh. I would hope nobody would ever support those laws in Uganda, at least that is clear.