Why Metaphysics fails to be adequate?

[sprinkles]

I know you are not discounting metaphysics.
I was only stating my belief that the reason we don’t have more scientific information or instruments to capture such information is because it has not been given the proper resources to make it discoverable. I for one have a very strong belief in such things existing because I have experienced them with my own senses. Can I explain them scientifically? No. Could some quantum theories explain what happened? Probably. Neutrinos were once a theory too...until they discovered how to detect them.
What I experienced was absolutely detectable....something moved violently when there was no one or nothing (detectable) interacting with it. I am only saying that we cannot give value to something yet to be discovered and explained....maybe it will turn all we know on it’s head....maybe not.

Yeah. I agree with that.

Basically it's like this:
Scientist wants to do an ESP experiment. He sets a person down to see if they can know what cards are turned over in a separate room. The experiment fails. Does this disprove ESP? No, it does not - it just means that ESP is not what the scientist thought it was.

None the less people will say that ESP does not exist because that scientist did not find it. I'm saying "Don't do that." Doing the experiment is great. Finding it inconclusive tells you something - to look elsewhere. Not to do the same experiments to still prove that you still don't find anything under some preconceived bias that ESP doesn't exist.

People have developed a confirmation bias due to these things - they expect to not find anything, and in a way subconsciously conspire to not find it by repeatedly looking in the wrong places, when they should already know what to expect because it's been done.

 

[Skarekrow]

Yeah. I agree with that.

Basically it's like this:
Scientist wants to do an ESP experiment. He sets a person down to see if they can know what cards are turned over in a separate room. The experiment fails. Does this disprove ESP? No, it does not - it just means that ESP is not what the scientist thought it was.

None the less people will say that ESP does not exist because that scientist did not find it. I'm saying "Don't do that." Doing the experiment is great. Finding it inconclusive tells you something - to look elsewhere. Not to do the same experiments to still prove that you still don't find anything under some preconceived bias that ESP doesn't exist.

People have developed a confirmation bias due to these things - they expect to not find anything, and in a way subconsciously conspire to not find it by repeatedly looking in the wrong places, when they should already know what to expect because it's been done.

So what do you propose doing about it? (not personally, or maybe lol)
The interesting thing is that the more you read about quantum mechanics and theories the more you draw similarities between it and metaphysics.
I think that there will be some large strides made in that field of study within the next several decades if only for the fact that we are delving more into quantum mechanics. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if some discovery or some new way to detect something shows us more than we thought it would.

 

[sprinkles]

So what do you propose doing about it? (not personally, or maybe lol)
The interesting thing is that the more you read about quantum mechanics and theories the more you draw similarities between it and metaphysics.
I think that there will be some large strides made in that field of study within the next several decades if only for the fact that we are delving more into quantum mechanics. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if some discovery or some new way to detect something shows us more than we thought it would.

What I propose is reasonable withholding of conclusions and distinctions. Apparently a difficult concept to grasp.

It seems like everything has to mean something, definitively and in one way - I disagree. We have more imagination than that. It's like how everything in music must have a label and a method and a conformity to such a point that the actual music doesn't get in at all. Heaven forbid that somebody uses a vowel bass, or a strange noise, or a discord, that's not music! Music is for guitars and pianos that are in tune! It's just noise! Yet the person saying this has never listened to somebody like Merzbow who actually throws away distinctions and really does make noise.

 

[Jack]

delete plz

 

[Jack]

I was just thinking about this.

Why is it that people seem to have a propensity for searching out some unknown and yet to be discovered force as some sort of explanation for phenomena? Such that it even leads researchers to chase red herrings basically to disprove something that is already most likely dubious?

It's like leading everybody astray. It's like saying "LOOK! Look at this pink dragon that isn't there!" and everybody looks, looks away from what is readily apparent, looks for the pink dragon and says "Well I don't see it."

What is this preference for chasing nothings rather than taking the phenomena that we already know quite well and possibly understanding it in a different way?

I believe this is why psychic experiments and ESP experiments fail, because people take their eyes off what they can actually discern to start looking for that pink dragon. It's being misled from what is already sufficient and comprehensible to look for something that probably isn't there. That's called being gullible. And the opponents gleefully take it up to prove that the thing that isn't there still isn't there.

I think studies like that tend to fail because generally most of the people who do that variety of research don't have the resources, or credibility to really perform convincing tests aside from some of the reasons you yourself mentioned in other posts. I'd imagine that sort of love of mystery tends to get bludgeoned out of you in academia as well. On the other hand, you'll occasionally get someone like Sam Parnia, who has the resources and expertise to create something like the Aware study.

Beyond all that, people (some people) are naturally drawn to the mysterious, because we're curious creatures, part of that drives science.

If one were to, however, be looking for a safe, secure, predictable world, in scientific orthodoxy, I'm sure they would find it, but it wouldn't be real.

 

[Skarekrow]

I agree with [MENTION=2540]Jack[/MENTION] it’s all about the resources and the money invested into discovering what you wish to explore.
Not all phenomena in this world can yet be explained....in fact, some phenomena seems to consciously hide from us as in the Double-slit experiment -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment

If the act of observing an electron effects it path and the subsequent pattern of light on the wall, then how can anyone argue that the human mind cannot do other things as well. The idea that people have ESP and other psychic abilities most likely came from more than the recognition of coincidence.

 

[Faye]

The universe is more fun if magic is real. And as a matter of fact, most of the people on the planet today believe in magic or similar forces even though they are a small minority in the U.S.A. and similar advanced countries.

Some people just want magic to be real. Or they want the universe to be more than it is. It is really a spiritual thing for many people (i.e. belief in 'energy'). Some people have even written books about how science is supposedly shifting toward such a view. The new age group has gotten a hold of quantum mechanics and many believe that it somehow will come to fully prove their so far unfounded beliefs about 'energy'.

So basically, it is just people trying to impose religion on science, which is not unusual given the history of science (it developed closely with Christianity). Science will survive and the experiments will probably never prove what they claim to prove and be accepted as widely as the books written on the subject claim they are. But since the primary motivation for believing in that stuff is not rational anyway, that hardly matters. Just be careful when they tell you that you can use the power of intention to get more money or otherwise fulfill your life's desires. It ain't that easy.

 

[Korg]

The universe is more fun if magic is real. And as a matter of fact, most of the people on the planet today believe in magic or similar forces even though they are a small minority in the U.S.A. and similar advanced countries.

Some people just want magic to be real. Or they want the universe to be more than it is. It is really a spiritual thing for many people (i.e. belief in 'energy'). Some people have even written books about how science is supposedly shifting toward such a view. The new age group has gotten a hold of quantum mechanics and many believe that it somehow will come to fully prove their so far unfounded beliefs about 'energy'.

So basically, it is just people trying to impose religion on science, which is not unusual given the history of science (it developed closely with Christianity). Science will survive and the experiments will probably never prove what they claim to prove and be accepted as widely as the books written on the subject claim they are. But since the primary motivation for believing in that stuff is not rational anyway, that hardly matters. Just be careful when they tell you that you can use the power of intention to get more money or otherwise fulfill your life's desires. It ain't that easy.

You're conjecturing here and also using disparate terms interchangeably.

There's certainly a lot of charlatans and metaphysical non-sense out there, but if history reveals anything about the confluence of faith and science, it's that both were used to further understandings about the nature of the universe and the laws that govern it.

 

[Sensiko]

[video=youtube;VaJjHgyHnEc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaJjHgyHnEc&feature=player_embedded[/video]

moving a rat’s tail with thought alone...

Thanks to a group of Harvard University scientists, we've gotten one step closer to making Jedi mind trick a reality. In their most recent experiment, the scientists were able to remotely flick a rat's tail with the power of human thought by using a brain-to-brain computer interface (BBI). With the successful outcome of this test, the researchers say they hope to experiment with more complex signals, such as feelings of hunger or sexual arousal, and eventually invite another human in place of the rodent.

 

[Skarekrow]

The universe is more fun if magic is real. And as a matter of fact, most of the people on the planet today believe in magic or similar forces even though they are a small minority in the U.S.A. and similar advanced countries.

Some people just want magic to be real. Or they want the universe to be more than it is. It is really a spiritual thing for many people (i.e. belief in 'energy'). Some people have even written books about how science is supposedly shifting toward such a view. The new age group has gotten a hold of quantum mechanics and many believe that it somehow will come to fully prove their so far unfounded beliefs about 'energy'.

So basically, it is just people trying to impose religion on science, which is not unusual given the history of science (it developed closely with Christianity). Science will survive and the experiments will probably never prove what they claim to prove and be accepted as widely as the books written on the subject claim they are. But since the primary motivation for believing in that stuff is not rational anyway, that hardly matters. Just be careful when they tell you that you can use the power of intention to get more money or otherwise fulfill your life's desires. It ain't that easy.

I don’t see it as the imposition of religion on science...I actually have a very scientifically thinking mind...I always have, as a child I could not get enough of science books and shows. I have constantly struggled with faith in any religion, as much as I may want to believe, it is very difficult for me to have blind faith in anything.
But yet, I have had experiences in my life that just have no explanation...and not saying that maybe someday, they could be explained by science...but as of right now, I can only look to the metaphysical world for answers.
Here’s an example...I have posted this story before but I will write it out again.
My ex and I were house-sitting for her parents...I was maybe 22-23...anyhow, we were laying down to go to bed in her old bedroom.
There was one of those mobile rolling clothes racks with a bunch of empty hangers on it....no clothes over in the corner closest to me.
I was closest to the door and she was to my right....just as we reached the point of half-way asleep, there was a loud crash from the hanger rack....my first though was that my ex had thrown a pillow and hit it, as that was about the amount of force.
I jumped up and flipped on the light....you could see all the hangers still swinging. I asked her is she had thrown something to which she replied “No.” And as I looked there was nothing on the floor under the rack. The windows were closed, there was no fan, the door was shut. There is no way she could have gotten up and done anything and gotten back in bed in time...and her reaction to it was genuinely fearful.
She felt uncomfortable enough that we slept in her parents room.....but I didn’t feel anything as far as fear....I was more curious as to what it could have been....and there was not a fearful or negative feeling when it happened that I could feel either.
I checked for earthquakes the next morning even....nothing.
I played with the rack for about and hour trying to recreate the sound by putting one hanger balanced to where it would swing down and hit the others....it wasn’t even close to the same amount of force.
To this day, I still cannot explain it....but that is just one example...there are others....and because so many things seemed to have happened both as a child and as an adult, I started to look into metaphysical reasons. It could have been a ghost....or it could have been one of us somehow doing it with our minds....or perhaps one of us crashed into it when we were out of body. All those give me a possible answer...none of them concretely and that still continues to bother as I am the type that needs solid evidence.
Are quantum physics and metaphysics really so far apart? Quantum physics-wise, perhaps it was the intersection of another dimension? Maybe ghosts in general are glimpses into another dimension where the walls separating us have grown thin....or maybe a glimpse forward or backward in time?
As in my above post explained, the double-slit experiment changes just by the act of observation....they still do not know why....is it because there is something there deciding what we should discover or are we unconsciously changing the outcome with our minds? It begins to delve into the realm of what some would call “magic”...and I honestly believe that “magic” is only science yet to be discovered. Probably even 100 years ago, the things we have today and the discoveries that we have made would be called “magic” by some....even this computer I am typing on would be looked at with awe. So when you begin to look at things like quantum mechanics, which are mostly theoretical today, we have indeed come incredibly far. I’m not saying that all metaphysical ideas or practices are real or practical, or that real “magic” actually exists...I only believe that there is so much more out there that has yet to be discovered and explored. I do believe that our minds are capable of amazing feats...I would like to see definitive proof of ESP, clairvoyance, telekinesis, and so on....and perhaps we will someday. I would also like to see definitive proof of some of the amazing quantum theories that are out there...and maybe I never will.
I can understand, if someone has never had any very personal experiences that were unexplainable would doubt the viability of such things as metaphysics.
I can only vouch for myself and what I have physically seen and experienced...I can tell you with much personal certainty that the surface has barely been scratched.

 

[TinyBubbles]

I was just thinking about this.

Why is it that people seem to have a propensity for searching out some unknown and yet to be discovered force as some sort of explanation for phenomena? Such that it even leads researchers to chase red herrings basically to disprove something that is already most likely dubious?

It's like leading everybody astray. It's like saying "LOOK! Look at this pink dragon that isn't there!" and everybody looks, looks away from what is readily apparent, looks for the pink dragon and says "Well I don't see it."

What is this preference for chasing nothings rather than taking the phenomena that we already know quite well and possibly understanding it in a different way?

I believe this is why psychic experiments and ESP experiments fail, because people take their eyes off what they can actually discern to start looking for that pink dragon. It's being misled from what is already sufficient and comprehensible to look for something that probably isn't there. That's called being gullible. And the opponents gleefully take it up to prove that the thing that isn't there still isn't there.

I think you're talking about the difference between deductive and inductive logic. Deductive logic assumes certain things to be true, and derives certain conclusions based on that. These conclusions are rock solid as long as the initial assumptions are correct.

Inductive logic works from the ground up; it takes a look at the real, physical world and tries to form conclusions based on what can directly be experienced. These conclusions are only a handful of the full spectrum of possibilities, however, and so they're far less certain, and can change with new information. Modern science primarily uses inductive logic.

Now, chasing a hypothetical dragon would require using deductive logic, because you'd assume it would have x, y, and z features and that those features could be detected. Naturally, when you don't find those features, it would be perfectly rational to conclude that said dragon didn't exist. When it comes to ESP and other such phenomena, however, the direct data is accessible only to the person/s to whom it happens, and often isn't replicable at will, even by them, so to study it one would be forced to use deductive logic. It's no accident that the paranormal field is saturated with anecdotal accounts; these are the initial assumptions on which studies are done. The entire process is flawed from the outset, if your objective is to find the truth.

 

[Faye]

I don’t see it as the imposition of religion on science...I actually have a very scientifically thinking mind...I always have, as a child I could not get enough of science books and shows. I have constantly struggled with faith in any religion, as much as I may want to believe, it is very difficult for me to have blind faith in anything.
But yet, I have had experiences in my life that just have no explanation...and not saying that maybe someday, they could be explained by science...but as of right now, I can only look to the metaphysical world for answers.
Here’s an example...I have posted this story before but I will write it out again.
My ex and I were house-sitting for her parents...I was maybe 22-23...anyhow, we were laying down to go to bed in her old bedroom.
There was one of those mobile rolling clothes racks with a bunch of empty hangers on it....no clothes over in the corner closest to me.
I was closest to the door and she was to my right....just as we reached the point of half-way asleep, there was a loud crash from the hanger rack....my first though was that my ex had thrown a pillow and hit it, as that was about the amount of force.
I jumped up and flipped on the light....you could see all the hangers still swinging. I asked her is she had thrown something to which she replied “No.” And as I looked there was nothing on the floor under the rack. The windows were closed, there was no fan, the door was shut. There is no way she could have gotten up and done anything and gotten back in bed in time...and her reaction to it was genuinely fearful.
She felt uncomfortable enough that we slept in her parents room.....but I didn’t feel anything as far as fear....I was more curious as to what it could have been....and there was not a fearful or negative feeling when it happened that I could feel either.
I checked for earthquakes the next morning even....nothing.
I played with the rack for about and hour trying to recreate the sound by putting one hanger balanced to where it would swing down and hit the others....it wasn’t even close to the same amount of force.
To this day, I still cannot explain it....but that is just one example...there are others....and because so many things seemed to have happened both as a child and as an adult, I started to look into metaphysical reasons. It could have been a ghost....or it could have been one of us somehow doing it with our minds....or perhaps one of us crashed into it when we were out of body. All those give me a possible answer...none of them concretely and that still continues to bother as I am the type that needs solid evidence.
Are quantum physics and metaphysics really so far apart? Quantum physics-wise, perhaps it was the intersection of another dimension? Maybe ghosts in general are glimpses into another dimension where the walls separating us have grown thin....or maybe a glimpse forward or backward in time?
As in my above post explained, the double-slit experiment changes just by the act of observation....they still do not know why....is it because there is something there deciding what we should discover or are we unconsciously changing the outcome with our minds? It begins to delve into the realm of what some would call “magic”...and I honestly believe that “magic” is only science yet to be discovered. Probably even 100 years ago, the things we have today and the discoveries that we have made would be called “magic” by some....even this computer I am typing on would be looked at with awe. So when you begin to look at things like quantum mechanics, which are mostly theoretical today, we have indeed come incredibly far. I’m not saying that all metaphysical ideas or practices are real or practical, or that real “magic” actually exists...I only believe that there is so much more out there that has yet to be discovered and explored. I do believe that our minds are capable of amazing feats...I would like to see definitive proof of ESP, clairvoyance, telekinesis, and so on....and perhaps we will someday. I would also like to see definitive proof of some of the amazing quantum theories that are out there...and maybe I never will.
I can understand, if someone has never had any very personal experiences that were unexplainable would doubt the viability of such things as metaphysics.
I can only vouch for myself and what I have physically seen and experienced...I can tell you with much personal certainty that the surface has barely been scratched.

Anything is possible. I am not denying that your experience with the coat hanger could be due to something we cannot yet explain. I just think that, if we're going to accept a possibility such as our minds acting on external physical objects, we need a more firm basis than shallow assertions form a group of people who ascribe to the victim-blaming mentality of The Secret and similar works.

When you're on the cusp of sleep, you can induce out of body experiences and such by tricking your body into falling into the hypnogogic state by not moving. It can also happen on its own sometimes.

 

[Faye]

You're conjecturing here and also using disparate terms interchangeably.

Cool story bro.

 

[Skarekrow]

Anything is possible. I am not denying that your experience with the coat hanger could be due to something we cannot yet explain. I just think that, if we're going to accept a possibility such as our minds acting on external physical objects, we need a more firm basis than shallow assertions form a group of people who ascribe to the victim-blaming mentality of The Secret and similar works.

When you're on the cusp of sleep, you can induce out of body experiences and such by tricking your body into falling into the hypnogogic state by not moving. It can also happen on its own sometimes.

You are right about the hypnogogic state, that has also been the basis for some of the ghostly experiences that people have had where they wake up and cannot move then begin to see some sort of entity.
I also agree that there are a lot of people out there who are either in it for the money, or have thoroughly convinced themselves of it’s truth.

 

[Eventhorizon]

I was just thinking about this.

Why is it that people seem to have a propensity for searching out some unknown and yet to be discovered force as some sort of explanation for phenomena? Such that it even leads researchers to chase red herrings basically to disprove something that is already most likely dubious?

It's like leading everybody astray. It's like saying "LOOK! Look at this pink dragon that isn't there!" and everybody looks, looks away from what is readily apparent, looks for the pink dragon and says "Well I don't see it."

What is this preference for chasing nothings rather than taking the phenomena that we already know quite well and possibly understanding it in a different way?

I believe this is why psychic experiments and ESP experiments fail, because people take their eyes off what they can actually discern to start looking for that pink dragon. It's being misled from what is already sufficient and comprehensible to look for something that probably isn't there. That's called being gullible. And the opponents gleefully take it up to prove that the thing that isn't there still isn't there.

I would argue that in some instances though, looking for things like this leads to discovery even if it isnt what you set out to find. If Newton had never questioned why things were attracted to each other, what would the world be like today?

So BTW are you saying you dont believe in ESP?

 

[Eventhorizon]

Well, part of the problem is we don't even fully understand physics yet, let alone metaphysics. And that's physicists I'm talking about, not ordinary people who have trouble remembering what a hypotenuse is or balancing their (possibly nonexistent) checkbooks. I've read articles recently saying that something along the lines of 95% of the universe is composed of dark matter which we can't even see or detect, and physicists are trying to understand dark matter and prove that it exists currently. Using math. Which 99% of the people living today can't even understand.

Also, actual physicists get gulled into looking for things that may or may not even be there -- Einstein spent a large portion of his career trying to prove that ether existed. If people like Einstein get misled regularly there is no hope for the rest of us, but we might as well not get too upset about it.

Dark matter is cool! The idea is that they see things behaving a certain way and think, there is a reason that x is doing what it is. X wouldnt just do what its doing on its own. Newton and gravity...there is a reason this apple falls to the ground rather than just floats. It is the act of questioning that leads to greater understanding. In the case of Dark matter, no one has said "Yes, there is Dark matter." They only acknowledge that in accordance to our current understanding in how everything works, there most likely is. At least enough of a chance that there is to actually try and look for it.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Think about this. There is gravity in video games. Call of Duty, one that most people know is based on our own world. If conscious and inside that game, how long would it take for you to figure out you were nothing but a simulation? What would gravity look like to you from that perspective?
Think about it.

 

[sprinkles]

I would argue that in some instances though, looking for things like this leads to discovery even if it isnt what you set out to find. If Newton had never questioned why things were attracted to each other, what would the world be like today?

That assumption was based upon things that can be observed, which does not go against what I've said. He was still looking at what he could see and find.

So BTW are you saying you dont believe in ESP?

No, I'm not saying that.

 

[sprinkles]

Think about this. There is gravity in video games. Call of Duty, one that most people know is based on our own world. If conscious and inside that game, how long would it take for you to figure out you were nothing but a simulation? What would gravity look like to you from that perspective?
Think about it.

That kind of depends, doesn't it?

I'd probably figure it out when I realize there are no babies, and if you open something that is not meant to be opened you'd find that it is completely void inside and the surfaces are impossibly thin. You'd also find that your own body is similarly hollow at some point, and if you go to a place that you aren't supposed to see, nothing exists there except the skybox.

 

[sprinkles]

I agree with [MENTION=2540]Jack[/MENTION] it’s all about the resources and the money invested into discovering what you wish to explore.
Not all phenomena in this world can yet be explained....in fact, some phenomena seems to consciously hide from us as in the Double-slit experiment -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment

If the act of observing an electron effects it path and the subsequent pattern of light on the wall, then how can anyone argue that the human mind cannot do other things as well. The idea that people have ESP and other psychic abilities most likely came from more than the recognition of coincidence.

Things are made of chaos.

Also note that it's not just observing, but measuring. This is important because the more precisely you measure, the more pronounced the probabilistic randomness becomes. This concept was actually helpful in proving that this happens because they were able to take a more general measurement of particles at the slits in such a way that the measurement did not effect the interference pattern as much.

You can think of this measurement precision as something like using a large hoop to estimate the general unknown size of a small object. If it fits through the hoop you know it is not larger than the hoop, which is a form of imprecise measurement. But the closer your hoop is to the actual size of the object, the more likely the observer effect will take place or be intensified, increasing as the tolerance becomes more precise.

Edit:
And also on this note, everything is a measurement to some degree. The whole lab the experiment is done in is actually a measurement, as it is made of discrete objects, just like the slits are, and the particles are passing between them. The walls of the lab don't seem to effect the experiment but it is a form of measuring, even observing, because you can deduce that the particle is contained in the lab vs. elsewhere. The walls are no different than the slits except that the slits are much much closer to the particle, therefore measuring it more precisely.