Women: being forcibly submissive vs. choosing to submit?

[La Sagna]

You don't have to give me an education on what being submissive is. I've been in an abusive relationship before and know how it goes. The OP is not talking exclusively about submission as a result of force, coercion or lack of other options. I chose to address a different side which is submitting to someone else's needs and desires voluntarily. There's more that goes along with it other than nurturing.

I do not think submission is always that extreme and that there can be a healthy balance.

In all the definitions of submission that I have found it is defined as yielding to a superior authority. If you find a different definition please let me know.
There is nothing wrong with being generous and giving to another person, fulfilling their wants and needs, I just don't see that as submission. You don't have to feel inferior to do nice things for somebody else.

 

[Gaze]

In all the definitions of submission that I have found it is defined as yielding to a superior authority. If you find a different definition please let me know.
There is nothing wrong with being generous and giving to another person, fulfilling their wants and needs, I just don't see that as submission. You don't have to feel inferior to do nice things for somebody else.

I think what's happening is you're equating submission with inferiority, when others don't necessarily seem them as the same. Maybe in your experience, it is an expectation which often equates to force (no choice) but some find that there are relationships in which they defer to their partner (another way to define submission) because they know their partner values them and their judgment, but they choose to give them their approval or support to make a decision on both partner's behalf. This is not necessarily a sign one person feels less. It may simply be that one partner has chosen to "submit" in that way, because their partner has earned their trust and have proven to be someone they can trust to represent their interests well. This doesn't mean, partners won't disagree. So, another way to define submission is "deference" perhaps? If one partner is about being dominant and controlling, then of course that's unhealthy. Submission is not a choice. It's a prison to someone else's wants or needs. But if there is true respect, understanding and appreciation for each other, then deference can be healthy.

 

[La Sagna]

I think that's happening is you're equating submission with inferiority, when others don't necessarily seem them as the same. Maybe in your experience, it is an expectation which often equates to force (no choice) but some find that there are relationships in which they defer to their partner (another way to define submission) because they know their partner values them and their judgment, but they choose to give them their approval or support to make a decision on both partner's behalf. This is not necessarily a sign one person feels less. It may simply be that one partner has chosen to "submit" in that way, because their partner has earned their trust and prove themselves someone they believe will represent their interests well. This doesn't mean, partners won't disagree. So, another way to define submission is "deference" perhaps? If one partner is about being dominant and controlling, then of course that's unhealthy. Submission is not a choice. It's a prison to someone else's wants or needs. But if there is true respect, understanding and appreciation for each other, then deference can be healthy.

This is obviously more of a semantic issue. Obviously `submission' has taken on a different meaning than the actual dictionary definition.

Deference is definitely a better word for what is being called submission. It implies a level of respect that the word submission doesn't.
I don't disagree with the idea of choosing to let the other person make the decisions for a couple if there is trust and respect, which seems to be how some are defining submission. I just don't see why willingly cooking and cleaning is being equated with submission. In that case it would only be submission if the decision was made by one that the other was going to do it and the person submitted to the will of the other. It doesn't sound like that is the case, more that they are willingly doing it, and that's not submission.

As I said, it's semantics and subtle differences in meaning but I think that those can be important things to figure out in a discussion of this type.

 

[BrokenDaniel]

I think there's a submisiveness in relationships from both sides. I think it haves to do the dynamic and the person's character too. I for one, admit that i surrendered to a loved one more more than once, alas, acting way softer and commited, maybe even to the point of overly pleasing, people have said that i seem to switch in character when my girlfriend has been around. That can be seen as submisiveness when compared to my natural behaviour among peers and even relatives i think. And i think many males go through the same with their loved ones, and i don't think that's wrong. Being handled by someone is certainly a struggle, but overall i think it's a struggle between the two, and how they learn from it ultimately as time goes by. There are many layers in a relationship, sometimes the one who many may think haves the upper hand, is actually the most dependant and that's concealed between the two. That's maybe why trust is such an important issue, for me at least.
I think there are a few times were i forgot about my own self respect while chasing an idealized romance in the past. And i've been in relationships that can be labeled as emotionally abusive, but i've never thought of her as abusive more than me going overblown and neglecting what was happening in front of me.

Overall, i think submission is necessary in a way, it's part of compromising with someone else. Although my definition of submision may differ from others, and ultimately, there must be a reciprocal thing there, recognizing another's soul, and pain and commiting to it fully, for better and worse that's how i experienced these power dynamics in relationships.

Edit: As for physical abuse that haves to do with maturity and intelligence of the perpetuator. Guys like that are always cowards in my view, but then again, it's a difficult dynamic, and i've known a couple of girls who stood with their boyfriends long time after they got punched and one of them was a 19 y/o girl that unfortunetly didn't got to know her that well. Really sad, but there's little you can do aside from advise her and expect her to come to the realization that she's destroying herself. It's a codependant thing.

EDIT2: I'm mainly refering to relationships here though. As for the submisive roles being assigned to women in society in general, i don't really feel like i have much to contribute there, and i don't know much about it to be honest. Hope my post was along the subject anyway.

 

[Free]

I am a giver, a nurturer, the caregiver of my family. And I'm damn good at it too. This was a conscious choice of mine, something that many women actually don't have in other parts of the world- the choice. Even though I am in what is traditionally considered a submissive role, I am not a submissive person. In fact, I believe being a take-charge and assertive person who acts with initiative and integrity in a nurturer's role to care for the entire family is most decidedly not submissive at all. And yet, I yield to the needs of others and always put them first. It is in that way that I am submissive.

I am the queen of my castle who oversees all aspects of the health and well-being of those in it. In my kingdom, the king and queen are equal and rule together. If anyone tried to forcibly get me to be submissive, they would be met with stubborn rebellion... and Helga- the scary dominatrix who resides in the darker recesses of my psyche. This may make me seem like a domineering person when in truth, I'm not. I'm somewhere in between having a dominant and submissive personality and I also like this in my s.o. I seek balance in all relationships in my life- from romantic to friendship. Give and take. Reciprocity. But I live in the first world where I am free enough to have the luxury of this opinion.

No matter what your role is in your relationship, the key is having mutual respect for one another and respect for the roles we all fill, no matter if you are submissive, dominant, or somewhere in between. It is when there is no respect that the abuse begins to happen. Some people are forced to be in a certain role because of what culture, society, and certain institutions deem "correct". For a great deal of many there is no choice in the matter on either end of it. Women are born and raised in submissive roles whereas men are raised in dominant societal roles simply because of the genitalia they were born with.

 

[SpecialEdition]

In all the definitions of submission that I have found it is defined as yielding to a superior authority. If you find a different definition please let me know.
There is nothing wrong with being generous and giving to another person, fulfilling their wants and needs, I just don't see that as submission. You don't have to feel inferior to do nice things for somebody else.

We approach the topic differently. I am going to leave it at that.

 

[Scientia]

I am a giver, a nurturer, the caregiver of my family. And I'm damn good at it too. This was a conscious choice of mine, something that many women actually don't have in other parts of the world- the choice. Even though I am in what is traditionally considered a submissive role, I am not a submissive person. In fact, I believe being a take-charge and assertive person who acts with initiative and integrity in a nurturer's role to care for the entire family is most decidedly not submissive at all. And yet, I yield to the needs of others and always put them first. It is in that way that I am submissive.

I am the queen of my castle who oversees all aspects of the health and well-being of those in it. In my kingdom, the king and queen are equal and rule together. If anyone tried to forcibly get me to be submissive, they would be met with stubborn rebellion... and Helga- the scary dominatrix who resides in the darker recesses of my psyche. This may make me seem like a domineering person when in truth, I'm not. I'm somewhere in between having a dominant and submissive personality and I also like this in my s.o. I seek balance in all relationships in my life- from romantic to friendship. Give and take. Reciprocity. But I live in the first world where I am free enough to have the luxury of this opinion.

No matter what your role is in your relationship, the key is having mutual respect for one another and respect for the roles we all fill, no matter if you are submissive, dominant, or somewhere in between. It is when there is no respect that the abuse begins to happen. Some people are forced to be in a certain role because of what culture, society, and certain institutions deem "correct". For a great deal of many there is no choice in the matter on either end of it. Women are born and raised in submissive roles whereas men are raised in dominant societal roles simply because of the genitalia they were born with.

This exactly.