Would humanity have survived without religion?

[bagelriffic]

If people need something to believe in then why not believe in people?

i think this is the direction we should head in, it's alot easier to live in a messy room if you think when you go to sleep youll be waking up in a cleaner one. it is my current belief that without the existance of religion this world would be a better place in many aspects.

 

[randomsomeone]

^^^^^ for the record I did not say "Religion is the expression of love and gratitude consequent upon belief in such a God." that was Flavius.

Whoa....how in the world was that possible?!?!?! Since I can fix it, I did.

 

[Jack]

Religion has however been used as a psychological device to control the masses. Instead of striving to build a better world here and now many people are accepting injusticies in this life for the promise of something better in the next

Religion is a device to control the masses huh? Maybe by some, but the concept of "social justice" can be used the same way, in fact any ideal or ideology can be subverted for the sake of those with power. Religion is hardly unique in this regard.

What might surprise you is that the religious actually are statistically more charitable than their non-religious counterparts. Religion has actually been a great motivator of noble undertakings in the world, in fact, I would have thought exactly the opposite, when you made your criticism of believing in another world, that they would have more hope in bringing about their change since they believe one day there will be a better world. That seems like more of an argument about what perspective to take on their ideas, and I think it would be unfair to smear everyone with a broad brush.

Lastly what is most important is everyone of conflicting ideologies religious and non-religious seem to be claiming that the "other guys" are "bad guys" as if they some how didn't want a better world, and didn't care if things were the way they were or worse had some vested interest in keeping them that way or making things worse. Keep in mind, everyone wants a better world, and everyone thinks their ideas are the ways of getting there. Each side accuses the other side of not wanting to have open-minded discussions, everyone on whichever side are all liars or fools on the other. No one ideology is solely to blame, its not "the religious people's fault" that's just an excuse to get rid of or cloak our own ideologies' unfulfilled responsibilities.

Until people begin treating those they disagree with as intelligent and rational people who are looking for a better world as well, not as clueless suckers, or liars, then they are going to keep blaming each other for the worlds problems and nothing is going to get done.

 

[muir]

Religion is a device to control the masses huh? Maybe by some, but the concept of "social justice" can be used the same way, in fact any ideal or ideology can be subverted for the sake of those with power. Religion is hardly unique in this regard.

What might surprise you is that the religious actually are statistically more charitable than their non-religious counterparts. Religion has actually been a great motivator of noble undertakings in the world, in fact, I would have thought exactly the opposite, when you made your criticism of believing in another world, that they would have more hope in bringing about their change since they believe one day there will be a better world. That seems like more of an argument about what perspective to take on their ideas, and I think it would be unfair to smear everyone with a broad brush.

Lastly what is most important is everyone of conflicting ideologies religious and non-religious seem to be claiming that the "other guys" are "bad guys" as if they some how didn't want a better world, and didn't care if things were the way they were or worse had some vested interest in keeping them that way or making things worse. Keep in mind, everyone wants a better world, and everyone thinks their ideas are the ways of getting there. Each side accuses the other side of not wanting to have open-minded discussions, everyone on whichever side are all liars or fools on the other. No one ideology is solely to blame, its not "the religious people's fault" that's just an excuse to get rid of or cloak our own ideologies' unfulfilled responsibilities.

Until people begin treating those they disagree with as intelligent and rational people who are looking for a better world as well, not as clueless suckers, or liars, then they are going to keep blaming each other for the worlds problems and nothing is going to get done.

Yes i agree that ideas are used to manipulate people 'by some' and also to hold onto and gain more power.

I argue for that exact reason that anarchism (anarcho-communism) offers a possible approach for avoiding the centralisation and abuse of power.

I agree with Marx here:

'Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.'

At the extreme end of this you have religious people completely isolating themselves from society to pursue (i'm not sure if that is the best word to use) their faith. For example the desert fathers and other monastic orders. There you have an example of pious people who are being neutralised by religion (not all monks were pious however)

Islam seems to have an ameliorating effect on capitalism. One of the five pillars of islam is to give money to the poor (christianity pays tithes).

This maybe works on a micro level of people on the street. I would argue here that people are usually generous and decent anyway if part of a culture which encourages generosity (such as under a religion). On a macro level however religion is being used by power elites to keep the people subserviant.

Before TV and radio the pulpit often provided an outlet for political views (this is still going on).

I wouldn't deny the benefits of religion, what we have to do (for the purposes of this hypothetical discussion) is make a judgement call about what we think is ON BALANCE best for people (or 'would humanity have survived without religion')

I agree that people shouldn't be treated as idiots. I believe that people should put forward their views then people can make up their own minds.

I don't blame 'religious people'; maybe you haven't read some of my other posts.....i'm very clear about what i believe. The power elites are controlling and manipulating the people.

They believe they should rule. I believe the people should rule themselves because i believe the people are not idiots and can make their own minds up.

 

[randomsomeone]

I agree with Marx here

Apparently Marx understood religion in a very limited fashion and misjudged the entire thing.

For example the desert fathers and other monastic orders. There you have an example of pious people who are being neutralised by religion

Monastaries of this type are made up of people who are thinking for themselves who create communities formed along certain redefined societal norms. As such, they have always had some influence society and culture....more or less depending on conditions and circumstances. Just because they, or any similar group, opts to function outside of the political sphere, does not mean they are necessarily neutralized.

 

[muir]

Apparently Marx understood religion in a very limited fashion and misjudged the entire thing.

Monastaries of this type are made up of people who are thinking for themselves who create communities formed along certain redefined societal norms. As such, they have always had some influence society and culture....more or less depending on conditions and circumstances. Just because they, or any similar group, opts to function outside of the political sphere, does not mean they are necessarily neutralized.

I agree with everything you say here

I understand the benefits religion may bring the individual.

I worry about what it can do in its guise as a human institution with political agendas

I'd like to divorce my accusation against organised religion from individuals subjective experience of their own beliefs

I am just trying to say that religion can be and has been used as a political tool. For example the powerful recruitment potential of 'jihad' or the philosophy of Leo Strauss that a nation must be unified behind one religion as a way of defining itself against others.

There have been plenty of people from monastic orders who have been reluctantly pushed into public service; for example I was on Lindisfarne recently where St. Cuthbert who had moved to a seperate island from the local monastic community in order to be closer to god was pressured into becoming bishop due to his piety

Looking at the larger picture though i wonder if religion hasn't often provided a refuge (whether for our minds or bodies), for our pain and fears, when what we need is to deal with the problems in front of us

 

[Ecton]

I think it is undeniable that mass programming is often conducted through religion. There are other forms of mass programming, however. Almost any institution of cultural edifice that operates as a largely uni-directional communication medium is used for programming people.

I have explored and participated with some religious traditions that are working to expand spirituality in positive directions. The implementing groups are small and marginal, and will likely not grow in this century, but there is potential in them for a distant future. This would be sometime after the steam in the current collective id has boiled over.

While religion can be used to displace pain and fear in an unhealthy manner, there are also many other ways people bury their feelings, such as through consumerism, or by creating cults of personality, either online or in real life.

My personal wish is for people to slow down and be still with themselves and others. I think that element of spirituality would be eminently important for the survival of civilization today.

 

[randomsomeone]

Looking at the larger picture though i wonder if religion hasn't often provided a refuge (whether for our minds or bodies), for our pain and fears, when what we need is to deal with the problems in front of us

It may be a little of both. Religious institutions have been a strong catalyst for addressing pressing human need over the centuries...it has also given people an anchor to survive in the face of injustice and neglect where change was not possible.

On both a personal and cultural level, I propose that it is almost impossible for religion to outrun it's fundamental relationship with human dignity, freedom, pastoral understanding and enlightenment. Yes, religion may be abused (again, on both levels)....but if it is, it is doomed to eventually trip over it's own feet because the heart of religion is not about abuse or neglect at all, quite the opposite. The underpinnings of faith, hope and love are virtually inescapable within religion, even if these are eclipsed for a time by other concerns. To me, this essence is of great value both to the individual and to culture. It is a voice all to easily drowned out and/or neglected.

Rather than deny the value of religion outright (per this discussion), I prefer to encourage it's truest expression with the understanding that each individual journeys on this path and all may not be clear in an instant. It is a process. Life is this way sometimes.

 

[randomsomeone]

I think that element of spirituality would be eminently important for the survival of civilization today.

Agreed.

In the end I think religious concepts (spirituality) are an essential part of humanity's wholeness. It is ironic that many aspects of this are nested deeply in traditions we have now come to ridicule. If we look deeper, though, I think all the pieces are there...our culture at the moment (religious or not) just has trouble sorting them out.