Yet another INxP thread

[Mary Shelley]

Really? I thought that was a domain of enneagram 5? Why do you think that is Fi?

Enneagram and MBTI are not directly related. Using them in a cause/effect way or using one type as evidence for definition in the other does not work.

When I talk about Fi, I am talking about a Jungian function. This is applicable to Meyers-Briggs and Socionics. It is not applicable to Enneagram.

Fi is introverted feeling. An example of introverted feeling would be describing the way you feel about yourself and what things you could do that would create new or different feelings. You talk about activities you think belong to a Thinking function and then immediately follow it with emotional appeals for why you should do them more often and how this would effect your identity, such as when you said, "But I want to because that should make me more well rounded and competent."

I wish Jungian functions were not named in such a way as to be so emotionally loaded. They encourage one to respond, "What do you mean I'm not thinking? I have inferior thinking?" For someone with dominant introverted feeling, this may be especially hard to swallow particularly if they do not grasp the functions to the extent to know that this not an insult.

A Ti dominant person would not seek introverted feeling reasons for doing their introverted thinking. They just do it. The preference is innate.

As INFJ, Ti is my tertiary (third) function. Fe is my auxiliary (second) function. Ni is my primary (first) function. My Ti is so well developed because I have spent so much time thinking of reasons to explain my intuitive feelings. I do this because I know it is inappropriate and not considered acceptable by other people that I express my intuition directly without having reasoning. My concerns for this appropriateness for what is perceptible is an example of Fe (extroverted feeling). The flow of this exemplifies the function preference order. First I intuit something (Ni) then realize it's not ok to say (Fe) without thinking it through (Ti).

You think you should be doing something because it would define you (Fi) so you consider the many possible things you could be doing and the many possible reasons why you're not doing them (Ne). This is what I would expect from someone with MBTI type INFP.

 

[sassafras]

I can't type a lot right now, but as for research, I like weather, music, and hopefully in the future psychology, philosophy, computer networking, eh. I have a hard time getting into subjects because of depression, anxiety, other shit. But I want to because that should make me more well rounded and competent.

I know, you mentioned those already, but music is a broad subject. What genres of music? Listening to it? Playing it? Writing your own? What was it that interested you in the weather? Which subjects in psychology interest you? What philosophers would you like to read about? Why computer networking?

Mind you, I am also curious how depression, ADD and anxiety could stop you from pursuing subjects that you REALLY want to study. I'm no stranger to clinical depression (80% of my posts in this forum pretty much chronicle my struggles and my victories with a my crippling bout with it) and being ADD myself, I can tell you that one of our many gifts is hyperfocus.

What is it that you think about all day? What do you tend to hyperfocus on?

I guess every Ti might be different, some might not be as effective at communicating, but the process would be the same. I thought it sounded like my thought process because I try to search for clarity and truth while solving a problem, and believe that picking a side and building onto it isnt always the best way to solve a problem.

How can you not see that this is classical introverted feeling?

Out of curiosity, how well acquainted are you with the theory? Where do you get your information about typology?

However, when I was younger, I was probably more likely to do what I don't think is accurate now. Even though anxiety may have played a role in that, I think that might be enough to justify that I am not Ti-dominant.
When you say I am an unusual case, you mean as a possible Ti or to be typed in general?

I was being facetious when I said you were an 'unusual case' because, while you are so insistent about being a dominant Ti, nothing about your discussion style at all suggests anything of the sort. You have to keep in mind that Fi and Ti are similar in the way they analyze and deconstruct, but Ti is dedicated to better their understanding of objective reality according to their reason, whereas Fi is dedicated to what appeals to its subjective values (what things are worth believing in or doing) and what will align with their feelings. A lot of what you say in your posts (okay, 90% of it) seems to deal with the latter than the former.

 

[sassafras]

I agree. Enneagram and typology do not have a direct link. Enneagram deals with motivation behind behaviour and thinking (the WHY) whereas typology deals with the internal processes and how we arrive at our conclusion (the HOW). There is some overlap as certain types tend toward a particular enneagram type, but correlation is not causation.

You think you should be doing something because it would define you (Fi) so you consider the many possible things you could be doing and the many possible reasons why you're not doing them (Ne). This is what I would expect from someone with MBTI type INFP.

I was about to reply, but you put it into words better than I could.

 

[INxP]

Enneagram and MBTI are not directly related. Using them in a cause/effect way or using one type as evidence for definition in the other does not work.

When I talk about Fi, I am talking about a Jungian function. This is applicable to Meyers-Briggs and Socionics. It is not applicable to Enneagram.

Fi is introverted feeling. An example of introverted feeling would be describing the way you feel about yourself and what things you could do that would create new or different feelings. You talk about activities you think belong to a Thinking function and then immediately follow it with emotional appeals for why you should do them more often and how this would effect your identity, such as when you said, "But I want to because that should make me more well rounded and competent."

I wish Jungian functions were not named in such a way as to be so emotionally loaded. They encourage one to respond, "What do you mean I'm not thinking? I have inferior thinking?" For someone with dominant introverted feeling, this may be especially hard to swallow particularly if they do not grasp the functions to the extent to know that this not an insult.

A Ti dominant person would not seek introverted feeling reasons for doing their introverted thinking. They just do it. The preference is innate.

As INFJ, Ti is my tertiary (third) function. Fe is my auxiliary (second) function. Ni is my primary (first) function. My Ti is so well developed because I have spent so much time thinking of reasons to explain my intuitive feelings. I do this because I know it is inappropriate and not considered acceptable by other people that I express my intuition directly without having reasoning. My concerns for this appropriateness for what is perceptible is an example of Fe (extroverted feeling). The flow of this exemplifies the function preference order. First I intuit something (Ni) then realize it's not ok to say (Fe) without thinking it through (Ti).

You think you should be doing something because it would define you (Fi) so you consider the many possible things you could be doing and the many possible reasons why you're not doing them (Ne). This is what I would expect from someone with MBTI type INFP.

Now I'm a little confused. I've always thought enneagram was a system meant to compliment or be a certain "flavor" to an MBTI, Jungian or socionics type. from what i know, enneagram explains how you deal with the world and your character, while Jungian archetypes explain your perception/processing system (or psyche). If they can't be fused together, why bother with enneagram while discussing typology anyway, and that could mean most people on typology forums must be doing it wrong?

EDIT: Just saw hat tricks post. He explained the difference, and it makes sense.

I still think that post you referenced has an e5 motivation, but there probably is an Fi demeanor to it. Especially since people convince me I am smart, or doing fine, and I never see it, and have my own definition of "competence". That reeks of Fi to me, I don't know.

 

[YourFavoriteNightmare]

"In your case, your unusually developed Fi may come from a long-standing habit of self-analysis. INTPs are commonly described as latching onto systems to analyze them, and for this reason, they like to work with systems like programming, languages, or mathematics. But many INTPs also approach themselves as a system: they approach their own psychology as almost a plaything, something to understand and master. I certainly do.

And, in a way, this does develop Fi. It doesn't seem to develop all the parts of Fi that, for instance,INFPs would develop,but it does fine-tune that sort of discernment required to understand systems that aren't cut-and-dried.

For instance, no Fi is required in mathematics. There's one right answer. There's no "better" way of getting to the answer--maybe there's a faster way, but it's not ultimately better or worse. It's the same answer.

But when you delve into psychology, everything's different. You have to notice fine details. If it weren't for my Fi, I wouldn't be able to type people based on their writing style and the feelings their approach gives off to me.I sense, in writing (which,by the way, is a very Ti method of communicating: INTPs like writing, because it gives them a chance to be comprehensive and to refine their statements more than speech ever would), more emotion and feeling (two different things)than most people can pick up. And it's because of my Fi."

Well...she's misinformed.
Self-analysis. Think of the word itself...self...analysis. Analysis as defined as "the process of separating something into individual parts, understanding their features and their relations to each other." (paraphrased collectively from several online dictionary sources). Are we really going to attribute a Feeling function to analysis, here? Just because it's analysis of the individual? We can all look inward from time to time and I believe it's a characteristic of introverts, especially IN (because of the Intuition's role in the dom or aux slot to be comfortable with the non-concrete and theoretical and the mystic (which the inner person, soul, mind, etc, can very much so be)), to gather an understanding, more or less, of themselves earlier in life (I'll be real general and under the first 30 years).
Explanation and Expoundance:
Yes, self-discovery, just looking into yourself, is both a service provided by Ti and Fi. However, Ti's and Fi's approach are quite different in its form. Fi will look into discovering "you", yourself. What you love, what you hate. Your values. Just coming to know yourself as a person. Ti aims to figure out how you work. "I reacted to this and in this way...Why?" Finding your own patterns of behavior and thought processes. Could extend into emotional matters but, as a Thinking function, Ti aims to remain objective and analyze this "weird sensation". xD It's called an emotion, buddy.
Does this make sense?

Since, at the time of this post you are undecided on INFP or INTP, you have concluded you have an inner Judging function, correct? (sidepoint: Also, because of the P preference, you aren't quick to express your conclusions/judgments as the Judgers are). So, how do you judge things in your reality? By logic? It's either logical or not logical? Or more subjectively? Good/bad, like/dislike, hate/love?

-------
About the sensing emotion in writing...And I invite [MENTION=9350]sentientsixpence[/MENTION] and [MENTION=1360]TheDaringHatTrick[/MENTION] thoughts on this, but it seems much more Fe or Ni (working with Se). Fe because it's taking in the emotion outwardly and recognizing that. Hence, the FJ's gift with discerning people's emotional states. This would give basis to the individual whom spoke with you being an INTP because she'd be using Fe. Despite it's inferior place, it'd be more used (and dare I say, developed?) than Fi because it's actually in the stack, not a shadow.
Or this occurrence can be a result from Ni and Se. Idk why I felt to include them together here. It picks up it on certain words/phrases/sentences and forms the general "impression" of, in this case, the emotion of the writer "most so then other people." Idk why but I kinda felt some INFJ in the writer of the above quote (not INXP but the user on the other forum whom the quote's from). Just me? (my Ni may be overstimulated from figuring out the thriller movie I just watched).
But I doubt it's Fi. If it is, I can argue it's accompanied with Si's data of what Fi has already experienced. So then can remember what the individual has felt before and recognize, "This writer is feeling this."

 

[sassafras]

It depends on the type of writing. I mean, you really don't need call in the specialized functional cavalry when you see someone is crying to piece together that maybe this person is sad... much like it doesn't take much to recognize what the author is trying to communicate via word choice or sentence structure if its laid out right there for you. Different types might be able to pick up on it in their own way. After all, you don't just have NF's in your high school English classes.

I do think, however, that F's would generally be more likely to pay attention to this sort of thing and be concerned with the author's intention/motivation. In which case, that would be Fi/Ne and Ni/Fe, though the way they'd each arrive at that conclusion would be different. A Fi-type would probably notice it because their minds are always working and they don't take things in passively (super-duper 'but what does this all mean?' analysis is their natural state) whereas a Ni-Fe type might take it in a little more passively and not realize it until they're asked to discuss the book/or want to discuss the book. Si-Fe on the other hand, would be tipped off by how the book makes them feel and maybe look a little more closely at the language use.

 

[INxP]

Well...she's misinformed.
Self-analysis. Think of the word itself...self...analysis. Analysis as defined as "the process of separating something into individual parts, understanding their features and their relations to each other." (paraphrased collectively from several online dictionary sources). Are we really going to attribute a Feeling function to analysis, here? Just because it's analysis of the individual? We can all look inward from time to time and I believe it's a characteristic of introverts, especially IN (because of the Intuition's role in the dom or aux slot to be comfortable with the non-concrete and theoretical and the mystic (which the inner person, soul, mind, etc, can very much so be)), to gather an understanding, more or less, of themselves earlier in life (I'll be real general and under the first 30 years).
Explanation and Expoundance:
Yes, self-discovery, just looking into yourself, is both a service provided by Ti and Fi. However, Ti's and Fi's approach are quite different in its form. Fi will look into discovering "you", yourself. What you love, what you hate. Your values. Just coming to know yourself as a person. Ti aims to figure out how you work. "I reacted to this and in this way...Why?" Finding your own patterns of behavior and thought processes. Could extend into emotional matters but, as a Thinking function, Ti aims to remain objective and analyze this "weird sensation". xD It's called an emotion, buddy.
Does this make sense?

Since, at the time of this post you are undecided on INFP or INTP, you have concluded you have an inner Judging function, correct? (sidepoint: Also, because of the P preference, you aren't quick to express your conclusions/judgments as the Judgers are). So, how do you judge things in your reality? By logic? It's either logical or not logical? Or more subjectively? Good/bad, like/dislike, hate/love?

-------
About the sensing emotion in writing...And I invite [MENTION=9350]sentientsixpence[/MENTION] and [MENTION=1360]TheDaringHatTrick[/MENTION] thoughts on this, but it seems much more Fe or Ni (working with Se). Fe because it's taking in the emotion outwardly and recognizing that. Hence, the FJ's gift with discerning people's emotional states. This would give basis to the individual whom spoke with you being an INTP because she'd be using Fe. Despite it's inferior place, it'd be more used (and dare I say, developed?) than Fi because it's actually in the stack, not a shadow.
Or this occurrence can be a result from Ni and Se. Idk why I felt to include them together here. It picks up it on certain words/phrases/sentences and forms the general "impression" of, in this case, the emotion of the writer "most so then other people." Idk why but I kinda felt some INFJ in the writer of the above quote (not INXP but the user on the other forum whom the quote's from). Just me? (my Ni may be overstimulated from figuring out the thriller movie I just watched).
But I doubt it's Fi. If it is, I can argue it's accompanied with Si's data of what Fi has already experienced. So then can remember what the individual has felt before and recognize, "This writer is feeling this."

Well, I've taken a break from MBTI. But to inform you, I probably notice myself judging things by logical validity (oh, this makes sense, this is consistent...or vice versa). Though, I can get pretty damn passionate about my beliefs sometimes, just like an Fi-user would. When I'm depressed, it seems a lot of the thoughts in my head take on an Fi-tint. I was actually thinking about INTJ being a possibility for me.

 

[YourFavoriteNightmare]

Well, I've taken a break from MBTI. But to inform you, I probably notice myself judging things by logical validity (oh, this makes sense, this is consistent...or vice versa). Though, I can get pretty damn passionate about my beliefs sometimes, just like an Fi-user would. When I'm depressed, it seems a lot of the thoughts in my head take on an Fi-tint. I was actually thinking about INTJ being a possibility for me.

The one thing I have to say is that INTPs can very much so be passionate in their beliefs. Ti is willing to defend its judgments if challenged. If an untruth is raised, this quiet INTP will open up and actively defend it. So don't be deterred from that. But could be Fi, too. Just the world of Ji.

When I'm depressed, it seems a lot of the thoughts in my head take on an Fi-tint.

Could you expound upon this?

 

[YourFavoriteNightmare]

INTP = Ti/Ne/Si/Fe

If you have a "more developed Fi," you are therefore not INTP.

It is possible. We can develop all the functions. However, our functional stack, reflected by the preferences, indicate what we prefer. An INFJ may have a strong standing in Fe and Fi. However, this INFJ will prefer to use, and make use of, Fe.
Now, let's take our said INTP, they can have a more developed Fi. But this is in no way, shape or form going to over shadow the dom. The dom is the most preferred. I can see some more variability in the aux and tet. But only according to the functional field (Intuition (use of Ni and Ne) and Sensing (use of Si and Se) in the case of INTPs). The inferior, because of the strength and strength of preference of the dom will remain just as fixed and appealing. But the development can be more. It just won't be preferred or really liked. But, if need be, and something is required of Fi, if it's more developed, it will provide.

Talking of INTPs though...Fi is the 8th function. It's the absolutely least developed and unconscious one by nature. Why are INTPs so ambivalent when it comes to love? Because the little, tiny, weak Fi function. That's what helps one know what they feel on things. Judge things as "This is liked, and to this degree" and "this is liked also, but to a much lesser degree and in a different way" and "this is disliked quite strongly".

This Fi structuring process was nicely illustrated by one of my INFP blog contributors:“My inner values and feelings (Fi) are like a building, a structure of affections that inform my worldview. This involves an inner love for certain things, and an inner repulsion for other things. My values and feelings form “blocks” of varying hardness, depending on how strongly I feel about them; the stronger ones are more resilient…I constantly discover more about the structure as I go, and what I should change to make it better. For example, I didn’t have to factually discern a respect for human dignity; I simply found myself in situations where people did not respect human dignity, and it made me angry – I found out that I hate bullying.”

From Personality Junkie, INFP Profile, page 2 (here's link ->http://personalityjunkie.com/infp-personality-type-profile/2/)
So...the validity of an more developed, or stronger, Fi in an INTP is highly unlikely.

But I believe the biggest mistake in determining functional stack and people believe they have Fi, is that they don't understand it entirely. In relation to the Judging functions, I should say. I'm not one to talk though because I don't have a full understanding of it but a fair amount, an amount that allows me confidence in saying I have it in my functional stack. And, if I have Te, well then I have Fi. If one has Se for sure, then have Ni. If they have Fe for sure, they have Ti. If they have Ne for sure, then they have Si. The functional pairs.

 

[INxP]

Could you expound upon this?

Sorry for the late reply.

Example: I was worried about having aspergers at one period in my life. All of a sudden I had this feeling that all autistic people should be killed off because they have disabilities and in general they were burdens to society, but I was quick to deny this feeling to be true. (I was going through on-and-off suicidal ideation at the time) I then rationalized this complex feeling further: if someone were to kill themselves because if they had a good enough reason for it + felt like their problem was permanent, I wouldn't see the problem with it. We put down animals that are feeling really sick, but for some reason it's not okay for a human to put themselves down, if they felt like they were suffering through innate circumstances. Seemed kind of selfish to me. Like, if I had cancer, chronic depression, and a permanently broken leg, I would be convinced my life has no meaning and I would be completely inable to reach my goals (which ultimately keep me alive).

Though one day when I wasn't feeling depressed I rationalized it further: I realized that if someone did kill themselves, it would actually be selfish logically speaking, because that could could emotional problems in people and that could hold them back, and that in itself could upset people that are close/associated with the person who is dealing with their loss (the person who killed themselves). So, in that case, I'd say about 90% of all suicide cases, even the ones that are mostly accurately justified, are selfish (even if the people close to them wanting the suicidal person to stay alive though they may just not want to deal with being alive, which is also selfish). I'd say the other 10% that aren't most likely involve people that are completely isolated, including from family, which probably suggests their family neglected them or actually legitimately don't care about them. So, if there was a suicidal autistic person with terrible social abilities, had family that neglected him, isolated, living off disability, was a total burden to society, and just did not take joy in the fact that they were living and were CERTAIN (to a good extent) that they were never going to be able to take joy in living because they would be unable to reach their goals.....I guess I wouldn't have a problem with it. Think about it, I guess.

Most people would say I'm probably wrong and a shitty person for even considering that. Maybe I am. But that sounds like something I drew out from my own feelings, to a small extent, which probably suggests Fi.

 

[CogentPursuit]

Most people would say I'm probably wrong and a shitty person for even considering that. Maybe I am. But that sounds like something I drew out from my own feelings, to a small extent, which probably suggests Fi.

No, it can also be Fe. Fe is understanding others and can understand yourself as well. At the base of your description is Ti. Likely you made a more Ti remark than an Fi. I think an Fi would understand the hopelessness in depression and the things and feelings that are unreasonable or illogical that go along with strong depression in these aspects. in this case, I am referring more the depression that is equated to negative feelings and not so much to the one that is of apathy.

Apathy is a void of caring of anything. Common in INTP and schizoid and extreme emotional dissociation. The other cause is more an overwhelming feeling of negative feelings. This leads to illogical thought processes and can leave the person feeling as a burden to the environment. In their view their act of self destruction is a selfless act. I believe these individuals need medication to counter the negative feelings. Some incidents of brain damage are great examples of people who suffer from emotional distress do to physical reasons. Since positive emotions come from the left side of the brain and negative emotions come from the right, the brain damage of a stroke on one side of the brain can burden the individual with overabundance of negative emotion without a positive balance or the other way might result. I believe this was already discussed on a video recently in this forum.

The apathy part of depression is a part of a process of finding everything meaningless. Life becomes pointless and there is little to live for. It is often a point a person finds themselves in when they question everything they ever believed. The loss of all that you once held dear in respect to personal values is detrimental to your emotional state. Values are a fundamental part of feeling. Without any values you are aimless. It is time to pick up new values after this and it is from there you become a new person. The depression is temporary as long as you can have vision and create a new idea of what it is you want to be.

 

[INxP]

No, it can also be Fe. Fe is understanding others and can understand yourself as well. At the base of your description is Ti. Likely you made a more Ti remark than an Fi. I think an Fi would understand the hopelessness in depression and the things and feelings that are unreasonable or illogical that go along with strong depression in these aspects. in this case, I am referring more the depression that is equated to negative feelings and not so much to the one that is of apathy.

Apathy is a void of caring of anything. Common in INTP and schizoid and extreme emotional dissociation. The other cause is more an overwhelming feeling of negative feelings. This leads to illogical thought processes and can leave the person feeling as a burden to the environment. In their view their act of self destruction is a selfless act. I believe these individuals need medication to counter the negative feelings. Some incidents of brain damage are great examples of people who suffer from emotional distress do to physical reasons. Since positive emotions come from the left side of the brain and negative emotions come from the right, the brain damage of a stroke on one side of the brain can burden the individual with overabundance of negative emotion without a positive balance or the other way might result. I believe this was already discussed on a video recently in this forum.

The apathy part of depression is a part of a process of finding everything meaningless. Life becomes pointless and there is little to live for. It is often a point a person finds themselves in when they question everything they ever believed. The loss of all that you once held dear in respect to personal values is detrimental to your emotional state. Values are a fundamental part of feeling. Without any values you are aimless. It is time to pick up new values after this and it is from there you become a new person. The depression is temporary as long as you can have vision and create a new idea of what it is you want to be.

So...what do you think of [MENTION=1360]TheDaringHatTrick[/MENTION] 's assessment of my OP? I did seem somewhat immersed in my feelings, so it did seem INFPish to an extent. I don't know, though. Cant INTPs also put emphasis on authenticity? Don't have a lot of time so I cannot elaborate further, sorry.

 

[CogentPursuit]

Authentic does not really describe how I explain my emotions. I would define the process as being accurate. I tend to define my emotions by cause and effect standards and an inter-personal view of understanding instead of a very personal view. I see my feelings like I see yours it is not unique in that it is special to me.
It is like I am an outside observer like a scientist studying rats. He sees the rats and can know and understand them in a way that he knows what they will do and how they will react to their enviroment. He does not truly understand them, because he does not know what it is like to be a rat. This is a bit extreme to get the point across but the experience in examining my feelings is more often like the scientist studying the rat than actually being the rat and experiencing the process as the rat. I can see and difine my emotions and see how it affects my body but it is like I am experiencing a foriegn entity like the emotions are a part of me but a different me. Extreme stress brings these feelings to the surface in a way that these entities collide and I lose a grip on my control but such a thing is not normal.

I am not certain that all Intp would explain this process like this. I have known some to say that their feelings affect them in a subconcious way and that they don't often recognize them.