Youth Housing and mandatory Bible studies.

[Mary Shelley]

The fact is for this thing to work there has to be alternatives and they have to be valid.

This for me is what makes something falsifiable. I don't tend to debate things which are not falsifiable because I don't see the point in the exercise. This doesn't mean I'm disinterested in what other people think and feel--it's just that I can't really participate in the debate part.

I was wondering what you think of a related concept:

thou shalt have no other gods before me

Even when I was little in Sunday School, I thought this was interesting. Some would interpret it to give validity to there being other gods. Of course, many say that this refers to "fictional" gods of "false" religions.

The "before me" part is also open to interpretation. It is commonly thought that it means not to have them at all, for God sees all. If the context of God's gaze is limited to prayer or church then it could be said that the ban is against inclusion of other gods in places of worship (statues, totems, other symbols that have not been incorporated into the theology. A third way would be to say that "before me" could imply a ranking order. In some parts of the world, this was undoubtedly the initial way it was viewed: you can have other gods but you can't make them more important than this one. (If God created all then perhaps He delegates.)

What I wonder is what you think of whether there is an implication that there could be other gods and if you feel that you were free to select from them.

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=9350]sentientsixpence[/MENTION]

Well I think it is pretty clear that if their are other gods, you are not free to put them above God. I don't think there's another way to interpret that as the other cases do not actually contradict this case, if you take it to mean exactly what it says.

However, there are translation and context issues. Translation notes generally indicate that the "before" is incorrect, it should be more like "besides" or "other than". i.e. it is exclusive, it really does say "Don't have other gods, period."

So by strict interpretation of that translation you may feel correct, but that translation itself isn't necessarily correct.

 

[Mary Shelley]

[MENTION=9350]sentientsixpence[/MENTION]

Well I think it is pretty clear that if their are other gods, you are not free to put them above God. I don't think there's another way to interpret that as the other cases do not actually contradict this case, if you take it to mean exactly what it says.

However, there are translation and context issues. Translation notes generally indicate that the "before" is incorrect, it should be more like "besides" or "other than". i.e. it is exclusive, it really does say "Don't have other gods, period."

So by strict interpretation of that translation you may feel correct, but that translation itself isn't necessarily correct.

But how do you feel personally about whether you had a choice to accept other gods instead of this one? Was this ever a decision point? What do you think and how do you feel about that?

 

[sprinkles]

But how do you feel personally about whether you had a choice to accept other gods instead of this one? Was this ever a decision point? What do you think and how do you feel about that?

Well if I choose from a more animist perspective where I assume all gods are real and beyond my power to change, I'd say that any god can be fickle and beyond me, and will simply just be what it is.

Or in other words it doesn't matter if I like it or not if God is still there and still has his rules regardless. It would be like saying you don't agree with the Volcano god - it doesn't matter, that volcano god is still going to kick your butt if you anger it.

It's like dealing with natural forces. It's like telling the combustion engine "Hey, you'd be more efficient if you didn't waste so much energy as heat!" - it doesn't care because it works by its laws.

 

[rawr]

then once again, you are misinterpreting the Scriptures.

Christ did NOT die for everyone. Most of the human race is going to hell.

And your blood would be on my hands if i did not tell you that the only way to be saved is by the grace and mercy of God, through faith in his Son Jesus Christ.

I initially did not want to get involved, but this seems to much of an egregious misrepresentation of traditional/common Christian doctrine that it cannot be ignored.

I agree with @Barnabas 's response to these statements and would like to echo his sentiments.

• Christ did die for everyone - to say otherwise is a gross misinterpretation of His Word, and trivializes the scope of His sacrifice.
  • If otherwise, why would the scriptures say in 2 Peter 3:9

    Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

    If His death and salvation were for a limited scope of persons, why would he not want some to perish, and want everyone to come to repentance? Just because everyone doesn't, does not mean that His grace is not for/open to all.

  • - "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

  • [quote="1 Tim 2:3-4]" - "This is good, and pleases God our Savior,who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."[/quote]

• Most of the human race is going to hell.

  . Maybe. I don't know about most, and it is not for us to say (know) who and who are not truly Christians and have true belief. Sure, many will go to hell. Maybe you could even say most, but I'd caution against such assumptions as only God truly knows that.

 

[Blind Bandit]

[MENTION=1848]Barnabas[/MENTION] , Not really. As someone who has seriously considered working for a charity organization. This to me is an insult to human dignity. No matter the religious affinity we should all strive to help those who are in need. Who are we to ask for something in return. We should have empathy and give charity without exception that we be repaid. We should in a simpler terms expect people to pay it forward and not back to us.

I find this ideal an insult to the many organizations, religious and otherwise who help others without asking those in need to accept a religious doctrine . Doing otherwise insults a persons dignity. What if a Atheist ingratiation asked those who where in need to denounce their god(s), to receive help. How would this make members of this forum feel who are deeply religious? What if you have no other choice.....

 

[Blind Bandit]

Now if you want to think I placate non-believers Wonkavision, go ahead but I implore that you seek out most of the other forum members who I've talked to and debated, ask if I placated them, ask if I haven't told people in no uncertain language that they are going to hell if they don't change. You know what I learned from that,? It doesn't work, you know what I've learned from being relaxed about my faith? Nothing important get's talked about. The only way the Gospel get's carried effectively if it's done with love and that's hard, some days it feels impossible and that's without out all the barriers to communication that an online forum presents. The reason people are responding the way they have been isn't because of what you have to say, but because they don't feel any love in what your saying.

But more important then anything else, let me set this straight. I hate the Idea of @sprinkles going to hell. I hate that you sprinkles have had a life that's left you feeling the way you do about God and yourself. I'm not OK with you just going about your life staying the same when God loves and cares about you in such a way that if you could fathom just a smallest portion of it would make you weep. It's that same love that tells you you are worth so much more then anything you've done, anything you've felt and anything any one else on this entire planet has ever told you. That you sprinkles are so valuable to God that he simply couldn't stand to sit idly by watch as you suffer, instead he came to earth bore that suffering for himself, not based on anything you could do, not based on anything you could do. But instead simply because of his love.

Hmmm as an Atheist this is one of the reason I despise Christianity and God. And proves my point regarding the charity organization. Where Christians can't simply love other human beings and spread the grace of their god through loving and supporting others. No they have to tell others they are going to suffer eternally for no other reason than people differ on the belfieft of a made up man in the sky. Which can not be proven or disproved and as such can not be taken serious as a foundation for ones life.

And Christians wonder why most people chafe at their preachy and disrespectful nature.

 

[sprinkles]

The problem with atheism is that what is real has nothing to do with what you want to believe.

This is why I don't assume that God is or isn't. I made a choice that is valid in all states.

Now that I think of it, I'm reminded of the string theory video that was posted in another thread. Quanta don't always do what you expect regardless of the quantum theory, so you end up with quantum loops of infinities. The only way to make sense of it is to cancel the infinities and renormalize.

Basically I'm not going to pick my divergence that I'm going to follow. I cancel all of them out of the model simultaneously.

 

[Blind Bandit]

The problem with atheism is that what is real has nothing to do with what you want to believe.

This is why I don't assume that God is or isn't. I made a choice that is valid in all states.

Now that I think of it, I'm reminded of the string theory video that was posted in another thread. Quanta don't always do what you expect regardless of the quantum theory, so you end up with quantum loops of infinities. The only way to make sense of it is to cancel the infinities and renormalize.

Basically I'm not going to pick my divergence that I'm going to follow. I cancel all of them out of the model simultaneously.

I can respect that. And really at my best I'm an Agnostic Humanist. In that I don't care about god and have no need for religious over site for my moral compass.

But I also find religious belief to be dangerous. So I also tend to fallow the atheist path of debunking religious myth. As religion at its heart is counter productive to human evolution and self growth. Further relgion seperates and dose not unite humanity as people rather it demands condemning those that aren't like your. Or at the very least causes strong labels and splits among groups that already have difficulty understanding one another.

 

[wonkavision]

If Christ died for everyone and yet some go to hell, then Christ is a FAILURE. End of story.

And unless youre prepared to say Christ is a FAILURE, you had better reconsider your interpretation.

This goes for ANYONE who thinks Christ died for EVERYONE:

Your doctrine is of the devil, and you do not know God.

All whom the Father has given him WILL come to Christ,

and all the rest will die in their sins.

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." (Acts 16:31)

"Repent ye and believe the Gospel!" (Mark 1:15)

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=6017]wonkavision[/MENTION]

The logical conclusion of what you are saying is that it is all predetermined.

Why are you worried about it if Jesus can't fail?

If, according to you, Jesus can't fail and I don't accept, then that should clearly indicate that I'm not meant for salvation. If I AM meant for salvation then it will happen, since Jesus can't fail.

Actually in fact, according to this, if I'm in danger of hell then there is no changing it. If you say I can change it then you have contradicted your argument.

 

[wonkavision]

[MENTION=6017]wonkavision[/MENTION]

The logical conclusion of what you are saying is that it is all predetermined.

Why are you worried about it if Jesus can't fail?

If, according to you, Jesus can't fail and I don't accept, then that should clearly indicate that I'm not meant for salvation. If I AM meant for salvation then it will happen, since Jesus can't fail.

Actually in fact, according to this, if I'm in danger of hell then there is no changing it. If you say I can change it then you have contradicted your argument.

Im not worried about that. I know its all been predetermined.

but the MEANS of salvation is the PREACHING of the GOSPEL.

THEREFORE, out of LOVE and OBEDIENCE to God, I intend to preach the Gospel to as many people as God allows.

God knows who the elect are, BUT I DONT.

so, again, i just preach to whoever i can.

make sense?

 

[sprinkles]

Im not worried about that. I know its all been predetermined.

but the MEANS of salvation is the PREACHING of the GOSPEL.

THEREFORE, out of LOVE and OBEDIENCE to God, I intend to preach the Gospel to as many people as God allows.

God knows who the elect are, BUT I DONT.

so, again, i just preach to whoever i can.

make sense?

I don't know, you seemed pretty worried before. When you couldn't stand it that I was talking about widgets while dangling over hell. If you weren't worried and all is taken care of, then why would that bother you?

 

[wonkavision]

I don't know, you seemed pretty worried before. When you couldn't stand it that I was talking about widgets while dangling over hell. If you weren't worried and all is taken care of, then why would that bother you?

Its not a matter of worry, its love and obedience.

i know youre a non-believer, and youre probably fairly young, so "love" and "obedience" are foreign to you.

youve grown up in an era where narcissism and self-love are the highest virtues. so its like we're speaking a different language.

Add to that the fact that you are totally biblically illiterate,

and that the culture around you distorts what the Bible says,

and that all that you know about it is a lie,

and that, being in an unsaved state, your heart is filled with hatred toward God,

it would be utterly pointless for me to try to convince you to believe.

thats why i simply declare it to you, in the hope that you ARE one of God's people.

if you are then you will receive it. if not then you wont.

and im not obligated to preach to those who dont want to hear it, but as long as i have an opportunity, you can be sure that im going to use it.

As i said before, as long as there is breath in your lungs there is a HOPE that youre one of his people.

but whether you are or not, it is my privilege to preach the Gospel to you.

If God uses it to save your soul, or to condemn you for your unbelief, it does not change one thing about my privelege of preaching to you.

to God be the glory in all things, whether in condemnation or salvation

 

[Barnabas]

If Christ died for everyone and yet some go to hell, then Christ is a FAILURE. End of story.

And unless youre prepared to say Christ is a FAILURE, you had better reconsider your interpretation.

This goes for ANYONE who thinks Christ died for EVERYONE:

Your doctrine is of the devil, and you do not know God.

All whom the Father has given him WILL come to Christ,

and all the rest will die in their sins.

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." (Acts 16:31)

"Repent ye and believe the Gospel!" (Mark 1:15)

Hey if you want to disagree with the What the apostles wrote, be my guest. But let's talk about knowing God. We'll take a peak in 1 John 4 Which lays out some requirements for knowing God, "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." So that one good way, but wait John has more to say "This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world." Hey there's that word Kosmos again, which means everyone.

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=6017]wonkavision[/MENTION]
I just like things to make a little sense.

Also you sure do assume a lot. This does not behoove you. If your reported age is truthful then I am one year younger than you are.

"Totally Biblically illiterate" is also a grossly inaccurate description. It's also an assumption because you've seen my take on how many passages? Fact is, you don't actually know anything about me.

 

[wonkavision]

Hey if you want to disagree with the What the apostles wrote, be my guest. But let's talk about knowing God. We'll take a peak in 1 John 4 Which lays out some requirements for knowing God, "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." So that one good way, but wait John has more to say "This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world." Hey there's that word Kosmos again, which means everyone.

the apostles never even remotely suggested that christ was a failure, so i suggest you read them again.

The word "remnant" and "elect" or "election" is used at least 33 times in reference to Gods people.

just read Romans 9 for starters, its clear that God never intended to save EVERYONE.

Honestly, you have no real knowledge of the Scriptures. Its at about the level of Veggie Tales.

Telling people that God loves them when the wrath of God is hanging over them is like if Noah had put a sign on the back of the ark that said, "SMILE. God LOVES you."

 

[wonkavision]

[MENTION=6017]wonkavision[/MENTION]
I just like things to make a little sense.

Also you sure do assume a lot. This does not behoove you. If your reported age is truthful then I am one year younger than you are.

"Totally Biblically illiterate" is also a grossly inaccurate description. It's also an assumption because you've seen my take on how many passages? Fact is, you don't actually know anything about me.

Im not questioning how much youve read. you may have a Masters of Divinity for all i know.

what im saying that you clearly dont UNDERSTAND what the Scriptures say.

and that you subscribe, hook, line, and sinker to the narcissistic values of the day.

Every post of yours absolutely proves it.

and every Scripture that has been posted here, by you and everyone else, ONLY CONDEMNS you, for not BELIEVING on the Lord Jesus Christ.

So unless youre really just eager to condemn yourself, then i question your basic level of literacy.

 

[Matt3737]

[MENTION=6017]wonkavision[/MENTION]

I just want to say to you, personally, that I have a lot of respect and admiration for the teachings of the Bible and how it expresses those teachings.

Your style of proselytizing is completely abhorrent and disgusting on the other hand. No matter how correct you think you are or how correct you are in actuality. You, personally, disgust me.

Lord have mercy on your soul. Have a nice day.

 

[wonkavision]

Hey if you want to disagree with the What the apostles wrote, be my guest. But let's talk about knowing God. We'll take a peak in 1 John 4 Which lays out some requirements for knowing God, "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." So that one good way, but wait John has more to say "This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world." Hey there's that word Kosmos again, which means everyone.

If you think LOVE is sending a person to Hell, then youve got an EVIL definition of LOVE.

The fact is, God "HATES all the workers of iniquity." That is, all those whose SINS have not been atoned for.

God said: "Jacob have I LOVED, and Esau have I HATED."

GOD HATES SIN.

and if he didnt make an exception when he saw sin on his darling Son, but SLAYED him without mercy as the sinner's Substitute, then what makes you think he tolerates sin on anyone else? that makes no sense.

God is LOVE, which NECESSITATES him HATING EVIL.

Again, your understanding of what God's love is is about as shallow as Veggie Tales.

Please stop telling people God loves them. Tell them that God loves those for whom Christ died.