The Minimal Facts for the Resurrection of Christ.

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Here, we can debate the EVIDENCE for the resurrection of Christ.

I will debate anyone on this. As long as we can keep it civil, I will address your arguments when I have time.

We shall start with the Minimal Facts of the Resurrection of Christ. These are historical facts that virtually all scholars in a relevant field of study will agree with, whether they be Christian, Jewish, Agnostic, Atheists, etc.

1) Jesus died by crucifixion.
2) The disciples had experiences that THEY BELIEVED were of the risen Christ
3) The belief that the disciples had that Christ had been raised from the dead was so impactful that their lives were completely transformed to the point that they were willing to die spreading the message that Jesus was raised from the dead.
4) It was proclaimed very early.
5) The conversion of James, the brother of Jesus who previously believed Jesus was insane.
6) The conversion of Paul who was previously a persecutor of Christians and had nothing to gain by converting.

@aeon, @Quarkmaster, @meowzician, @Evan44

You are all free to give your very best objections to Christianity here.

I am not afraid of questions. The Truth is not afraid of Questions; a lie is.
 
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QuickTwist said:
Here, we can debate the EVIDENCE for the resurrection of Christ.

I will debate anyone on this. As long as we can keep it civil, I will address your arguments when I have time.

We shall start with the Minimal Facts of the Resurrection of Christ. These are historical facts that virtually all scholars in a relevant field of study will agree with, whether they be Christian, Jewish, Agnostic, Atheists, etc.

1) Jesus died by crucifixion.
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I'll give you this.
QuickTwist said:
2) The disciples had experiences that THEY BELIEVED were of the risen Christ
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I don't know that this is the case. I don't even know if there were 12 literal disciples. 12 is a magic number in Judaism, and often inserted into stories not because it is accurate, but because it gives meaning and poetic depth.

That said, grief hallucinations are quite common. I remember when my brother died, at the service I kept seeing him in the crowd. I'm sure there were those who loved Jesus who saw him posthumously. It means they loved him. Nothing more.
QuickTwist said:
3) The believe that the disciples had that Christ had been raised from the dead was so impactful that their lives were completely transformed to the point that they were willing to die spreading the message that Jesus was raised from the dead.\
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So that would mean that the Jewish martyrs confirm the truth of Judaism?
QuickTwist said:
4) It was proclaimed very early.
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Well, I wasn't there, but my guess is yes.
QuickTwist said:
5) The conversion of James, the brother of Jesus who previously believed Jesus was insane.
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I don't know that this was the case either. There is no convincing evidence that James believed this.
QuickTwist said:
6) The conversion of Paul who was previously a persecutor of Christians and had nothing to gain by converting.
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I find it truly strange that you think people convert for gain. I have made a study of why people convert from one faith to another, and there are many different reasons. But I've never run across personal gain being one.
QuickTwist said:
You are all free to give your very best objections to Christianity here.
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Nah. I'm not interested in undermining your faith. Rather, it is my hope that you become the very best Christian you can possibly be.
 
meowzician said:
I don't know that this is the case. I don't even know if there were 12 literal disciples. 12 is a magic number in Judaism, and often inserted into stories not because it is accurate, but because it gives meaning and poetic depth.

That said, grief hallucinations are quite common. I remember when my brother died, at the service I kept seeing him in the crowd. I'm sure there were those who loved Jesus who saw him posthumously. It means they loved him. Nothing more.
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The number of disciples doesn't matter, but, yes, it is historically reliable that Jesus appointed 12 Apostles. In one of the Gospels, Jesus says that the 12 Apostles will sit in judgment of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Didn't say this in the OP, but the problem isn't in the facts themselves (see Dr. Habermas's One the Resurrection Volume 3: Scholarly Perspectives as survey data of many critics of Christianity who are specialists in the New Testament), it is in explaining all the facts.

meowzician said:
So that would mean that the Jewish martyrs confirm the truth of Judaism?
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Nope. It's just one of the facts. You have to explain ALL the facts together. Just as the Apostles believing Christ rose from the dead is not proof in itself, it is just one of the facts. You must come up with an explanation that explains all the facts.

meowzician said:
I don't know that this was the case either. There is no convincing evidence that James believed this.
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I mean, you are free to disagree with Jewish NT scholars if you want, but you don't really have the knowledge to be an authority on the topic.

meowzician said:
I find it truly strange that you think people convert for gain. I have made a study of why people convert from one faith to another, and there are many different reasons. But I've never run across personal gain being one.
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I don't. I didn't say I did. It is simply worded that way because that is one of the common accusations that many make for why people convert to a religion. It is commonly said that the Church is an entity meant to control people, so they convert to also control people.
 
QuickTwist said:
@meowzician, since you converted to Judaism...

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My friend, please stop. First, like I said, I already traveled this part of the journey long long ago. I'm quite familiar not only with Michael Brown, but with significant minds and hearts in Messianic Judaism far more powerful, compelling, and endearing than him.

I will give you a head's up about Messianic Judaism, but only because it is so ironic that it always makes me smile. Messianic Judaism has utterly failed in its mission to convert Jews. Go into any Messianic Judaism congregation, and you will find very, very few Jews. They are flooded with Gentiles. Epic fail!

On the flip side, if you visit a class for conversion to Orthodox Judaism, you will very likely find that every ex-Christian there spent some time in Messianic Judaism.

Messianic Judaism is a pitstop for Gentile Christians on their way to becoming Jews. If you want people to remain Christian, it is the very last place you should send them. :)

My dear new friend. I promise you, there was nothing quick or easy about my conversion. It took a full twenty years. I left no stone unturned. There is nothing you can tell me that I haven't already wrestled with.
 
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meowzician said:
My friend, please stop. First, like I said, I already traveled this part of the journey long long ago. I'm quite familiar not only with Michael Brown, but with significant minds and hearts in Messianic Judaism far more powerful, compelling, and endearing than him.

I will give you a head's up about Messianic Judaism, but only because it is so ironic that it always makes me smile. Messianic Judaism has utterly failed in its mission to convert Jews. Go into any Messianic Judaism congregation, and you will find very, very few Jews. They are flooded with Gentiles. Epic fail!

On the flip side, if you visit a class for conversion to Orthodox Judaism, you will very likely find that every ex-Christian there spent some time in Messianic Judaism.

Messianic Judaism is a pitstop for Gentile Christians on their way to becoming Jews. If you want people to remain Christian, it is the very last place you should send them. :)

My dear new friend. I promise you, there was nothing quick or easy about my conversion. It took a full twenty years. I left no stone unturned. There is nothing you can tell me that I haven't already wrestled with.
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That's fine that you are very confident in your position.

I ask you this question: IF Jesus was raised from the dead, would Christianity be true?
 
QuickTwist said:
I mean, you are free to disagree with Jewish NT scholars if you want, but you don't really have the knowledge to be an authority on the topic.
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I suspect that those you call scholars and those I call scholars are not the same group. My guess is that for you it is Christian theologians who are the trustworthy scholars. For me, theologians have an agenda and can't be trusted to be objective. The scholars I listen to have PhD's in things like Near Eastern Studies, Ancient History, Linguistics, Archaeology, etc.
QuickTwist said:
I don't. I didn't say I did. It is simply worded that way because that is one of the common accusations that many make for why people convert to a religion. It is commonly said that the Church is an entity meant to control people, so they convert to also control people.
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I understand. This is confirmation bias at work in those coming from the perspective that religion is a bad thing.
 
meowzician said:
I suspect that those you call scholars and those I call scholars are not the same group. My guess is that for you it is Christian theologians who are the trustworthy scholars. For me, theologians have an agenda and can't be trusted to be objective. The scholars I listen to have PhD's in things like Near Eastern Studies, Ancient History, Linguistics, Archaeology, etc.
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Yes, Jewish PhD scholars who study the NT... And atheist NT scholars.. Agnostics, etc. Yes, specialists, not Joe blow down the street.
 
QuickTwist said:
Why not?
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Because being risen from the dead is not evidence of being the Messiah, nor is it proof of being God. I'm sure you believe that Lazarus rose from the dead, right?

The emphasis in the Tanakh is actually not on the Messiah, but the messianic age. Those Jews who believe in a literal person who will be the messiah believe that this is the man who will rule Israel during that idyllic era of peace and justice. Since the world is neither just nor at peace, that era has not yet arrived, so, no messiah.

You should also become aware that there are religious Jews who see the Messiah as a metaphor for those things WE do to help bring about that messianic age.
 
meowzician said:
Because being risen from the dead is not evidence of being the Messiah
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Psalm 22, which I am sure you are aware of...

meowzician said:
nor is it proof of being God.
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"But Saul grew stronger and kept confounding the Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah."

meowzician said:
The emphasis in the Tanakh is actually not on the Messiah, but the messianic age.
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I believe in a Messianic age as well... It's called the Millennial reign.

meowzician said:
You should also become aware that there are religious Jews who see the Messiah as a metaphor for those things WE do to help bring about that messianic age.
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Some things are metaphorical... the "Son of David" is not...
 
I have no objections. Your opinion is your own. Believe what you like. That’s none of my business.

Cheers,
Ian
 
QuickTwist said:
@meowzician,

In "Judaism" as you describe it, saying Messianic Judaism is not real Judaism, people are "not that bad."
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I'm making the effort to switch things on Evan's intro thread to here. I think it's more appropriate.

I don't think I ever used the expression "not that bad." That doesn't sound like me. I do often use the expression "not bad." This is because people often assume that if I disagree with something I'm morally condemning it or ruling it out as a reasonable choice, when almost all of the time that is not the case. If by chance I did use that expression, could you tell me the post number so I can go check the context? It's hard to respond when I don't know what's going on.

And yes, you are correct. You can take a Christian denomination like the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations and call it Judaism all you want, but it's still Christianity. They believe that Jesus is the Messiah who died for your sins. Indeed, they believe that Jesus is GOD. That is not Judaism. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and has feathers like a duck, it's a duck.

Honestly, 90% of my problem with MJ is their self deception in this matter, because it impersonates Judaism, and that moves onto MY turf. If they would just drop this claim, I'd be happy to let them go about their business.

Back when I was a member of a UMJC congregation (the more Jewish of the two MJ denominations) I began with the assumption that the Judaism claim was true. I read the books, and had the discussions. I was convinced. The thing was, as I mentioned earlier in our discussion, that my friend and I were visiting actual Jewish synagogues on Shabbat afternoons, and I was quietly acquiring a LOT of data on Jews and Judaism the way we INFJ's do, slipping into their shoes, seeing things through their eyes....

There came a day when I was sitting at our oneg, and everyone was schmoozing and talking about the kids and the Dodgers and stuff. And there were two theological conversations going on that I was listening in on. The first one was between one of the Jewish women and the pastor (I'm not going to call him a Rabbi, he's not). The woman was insisting that Messianic Jews should not be claiming that Jesus is God, and the pastor was explaining why they do. The second conversation was about Isaiah 53.

And it struck me, and struck me hard, these are not the kinds of conversations you hear in a synagogue. You would never EVER hear this stuff in a synagogue. I knew this because I now knew what actual Jews in actual synagogues DO talk about. My mind did a quick flip back over everything I had learned there in the previous months. And the light shone in. This absolutely was Christianity. Dressing it in kippot and tallitot and Torah Scrolls did not make it Judaism. And I felt pity, because I knew that they were not lying, meaning I knew they were not deliberating deceiving others. I knew that it was themselves they were deceiving.
 
meowzician said:
I knew that it was themselves they were deceiving.
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Decieve-ception
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meowzician said:
I'm making the effort to switch things on Evan's intro thread to here. I think it's more appropriate.

I don't think I ever used the expression "not that bad." That doesn't sound like me. I do often use the expression "not bad." This is because people often assume that if I disagree with something I'm morally condemning it or ruling it out as a reasonable choice, when almost all of the time that is not the case. If by chance I did use that expression, could you tell me the post number so I can go check the context? It's hard to respond when I don't know what's going on.

And yes, you are correct. You can take a Christian denomination like the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations and call it Judaism all you want, but it's still Christianity. They believe that Jesus is the Messiah who died for your sins. Indeed, they believe that Jesus is GOD. That is not Judaism. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and has feathers like a duck, it's a duck.

Honestly, 90% of my problem with MJ is their self deception in this matter, because it impersonates Judaism, and that moves onto MY turf. If they would just drop this claim, I'd be happy to let them go about their business.

Back when I was a member of a UMJC congregation (the more Jewish of the two MJ denominations) I began with the assumption that the Judaism claim was true. I read the books, and had the discussions. I was convinced. The thing was, as I mentioned earlier in our discussion, that my friend and I were visiting actual Jewish synagogues on Shabbat afternoons, and I was quietly acquiring a LOT of data on Jews and Judaism the way we INFJ's do, slipping into their shoes, seeing things through their eyes....

There came a day when I was sitting at our oneg, and everyone was schmoozing and talking about the kids and the Dodgers and stuff. And there were two theological conversations going on that I was listening in on. The first one was between one of the Jewish women and the pastor (I'm not going to call him a Rabbi, he's not). The woman was insisting that Messianic Jews should not be claiming that Jesus is God, and the pastor was explaining why they do. The second conversation was about Isaiah 53.

And it struck me, and struck me hard, these are not the kinds of conversations you hear in a synagogue. You would never EVER hear this stuff in a synagogue. I knew this because I now knew what actual Jews in actual synagogues DO talk about. My mind did a quick flip back over everything I had learned there in the previous months. And the light shone in. This absolutely was Christianity. Dressing it in kippot and tallitot and Torah Scrolls did not make it Judaism. And I felt pity, because I knew that they were not lying, meaning I knew they were not deliberating deceiving others. I knew that it was themselves they were deceiving.
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1) Many Jews who become Messianic say they feel even more Jewish.
2) You opened the door. You put Judaism above Christ. You literally said that. There was this inception of an idea that Judaism, not Christianity, was the truth. You simply followed that impulse. Apologies, but you had itching ears BECAUSE:
3) The Judaism they practice today is not the same Judaism they had 2,000 years ago. The Pharisees won out. There was much more diverse thought before. In the view of the Apostles, it was simply a different sect of Judaism that Jesus is the Messiah. All that Church history stuff developed over the centuries, just as Judaism developed over the centuries.
 
QuickTwist said:
Which kind of Judaism?
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Any movement within Judaism, meaning Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Reconstruction, etc.
QuickTwist said:
My pastor is Jewish and I get together with him sometimes.
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Your pastor may be a Jew, but he is a Christian. He functions with a completely different paradigm.
QuickTwist said:
I already told you I have already gone to a Seder...
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Yes, you explained you have attended a Christian seder. That's fine. I hope that someday you can attend a Jewish seder as well. :)
QuickTwist said:
It was done by the Apostles, who were the very first Messianic Jews.
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If you and your congregation want to do things more similar to the Gentile churches and less like the Messianic denominations, I'm fine with that. Remember, I'm not here to tell you what you "should" do.

I think, however, that this choice is a bit confusing. The main purpose of Chosen People Ministries creating church plants is to make a worship space that will be comfortable and homey for Jews so that you can attract us and try to convert us. The choice to worship on Sunday will interfere with your primary mission. Shrug. It's just something to think about. But personally, I'm staying out of it. It's for you guys to decide.
QuickTwist said:
Please quote a verse where this is used.
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Oh sure. Certainly. There is more than one, but here is a good one, from Exodus 20, the ten commandments.


8Remember the Sabbath day to sanctify it.חזָכוֹר֩ אֶת־י֨וֹם הַשַּׁבָּ֜ת לְקַדְּשׁ֗וֹ:
9Six days may you work and perform all your labor,טשֵׁ֣שֶׁת יָמִ֣ים תַּֽעֲבֹד֘ וְעָשִׂ֣יתָ כָל־מְלַאכְתֶּךָ֒:
10but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord, your God; you shall perform no labor, neither you, your son, your daughter, your manservant, your maidservant, your beast, nor your stranger who is in your cities.יוְי֨וֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִ֜י שַׁבָּ֣ת | לַֽיהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֗יךָ לֹ֣א תַֽעֲשֶׂ֣ה כָל־מְלָאכָ֡ה אַתָּ֣ה | וּבִנְךָ֣־וּ֠בִתֶּךָ עַבְדְּךָ֨ וַֽאֲמָֽתְךָ֜ וּבְהֶמְתֶּ֗ךָ וְגֵֽרְךָ֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר בִּשְׁעָרֶ֔יךָ:
11For [in] six days the Lord made the heaven and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day. Therefore, the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and sanctified it.יאכִּ֣י שֵֽׁשֶׁת־יָמִים֩ עָשָׂ֨ה יְהֹוָ֜ה אֶת־הַשָּׁמַ֣יִם וְאֶת־הָאָ֗רֶץ אֶת־הַיָּם֙ וְאֶת־כָּל־אֲשֶׁר־בָּ֔ם וַיָּ֖נַח בַּיּ֣וֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִ֑י עַל־כֵּ֗ן בֵּרַ֧ךְ יְהֹוָ֛ה אֶת־י֥וֹם הַשַּׁבָּ֖ת וַֽיְקַדְּשֵֽׁהוּ:


QuickTwist said:
I simply see it as an effort to get to the Jewish roots of following Jesus. My congregation does just that. Not tradition for the sake of tradition, but instead, trying to understand the Bible in the way Yeshua saw it.
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I think that's a noble goal. It's a different definition of Messianic Judaism than MJ's use, but it's certainly not a bad thing. Thank you very much for sharing this. It gives me a window into what is important for you, and I hear you.
 
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QuickTwist said:
Can't read the text, so I will not be responding until I can.
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I corrected the formatting. the word in question, melakah, is bolded and highlighted in red to make it easy for you to spot it. Let me know if you prefer a transliteration to the actual Hebrew script. It's very easy for me to just plug it in to AI.
 
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