The Minimal Facts for the Resurrection of Christ.

[QuickTwist]

Here, we can debate the EVIDENCE for the resurrection of Christ.

I will debate anyone on this. As long as we can keep it civil, I will address your arguments when I have time.

We shall start with the Minimal Facts of the Resurrection of Christ. These are historical facts that virtually all scholars in a relevant field of study will agree with, whether they be Christian, Jewish, Agnostic, Atheists, etc.

1) Jesus died by crucifixion.
2) The disciples had experiences that THEY BELIEVED were of the risen Christ
3) The belief that the disciples had that Christ had been raised from the dead was so impactful that their lives were completely transformed to the point that they were willing to die spreading the message that Jesus was raised from the dead.
4) It was proclaimed very early.
5) The conversion of James, the brother of Jesus who previously believed Jesus was insane.
6) The conversion of Paul who was previously a persecutor of Christians and had nothing to gain by converting.

@aeon, @Quarkmaster, @meowzician, @Evan44

You are all free to give your very best objections to Christianity here.

I am not afraid of questions. The Truth is not afraid of Questions; a lie is.

 

[meowzician]

Here, we can debate the EVIDENCE for the resurrection of Christ.

I will debate anyone on this. As long as we can keep it civil, I will address your arguments when I have time.

We shall start with the Minimal Facts of the Resurrection of Christ. These are historical facts that virtually all scholars in a relevant field of study will agree with, whether they be Christian, Jewish, Agnostic, Atheists, etc.

1) Jesus died by crucifixion.

I'll give you this.

2) The disciples had experiences that THEY BELIEVED were of the risen Christ

I don't know that this is the case. I don't even know if there were 12 literal disciples. 12 is a magic number in Judaism, and often inserted into stories not because it is accurate, but because it gives meaning and poetic depth.

That said, grief hallucinations are quite common. I remember when my brother died, at the service I kept seeing him in the crowd. I'm sure there were those who loved Jesus who saw him posthumously. It means they loved him. Nothing more.

3) The believe that the disciples had that Christ had been raised from the dead was so impactful that their lives were completely transformed to the point that they were willing to die spreading the message that Jesus was raised from the dead.\

So that would mean that the Jewish martyrs confirm the truth of Judaism?

4) It was proclaimed very early.

Well, I wasn't there, but my guess is yes.

5) The conversion of James, the brother of Jesus who previously believed Jesus was insane.

I don't know that this was the case either. There is no convincing evidence that James believed this.

6) The conversion of Paul who was previously a persecutor of Christians and had nothing to gain by converting.

I find it truly strange that you think people convert for gain. I have made a study of why people convert from one faith to another, and there are many different reasons. But I've never run across personal gain being one.

You are all free to give your very best objections to Christianity here.

Nah. I'm not interested in undermining your faith. Rather, it is my hope that you become the very best Christian you can possibly be.

 

[QuickTwist]

@meowzician, since you converted to Judaism...

 

[QuickTwist]

I don't know that this is the case. I don't even know if there were 12 literal disciples. 12 is a magic number in Judaism, and often inserted into stories not because it is accurate, but because it gives meaning and poetic depth.

That said, grief hallucinations are quite common. I remember when my brother died, at the service I kept seeing him in the crowd. I'm sure there were those who loved Jesus who saw him posthumously. It means they loved him. Nothing more.

The number of disciples doesn't matter, but, yes, it is historically reliable that Jesus appointed 12 Apostles. In one of the Gospels, Jesus says that the 12 Apostles will sit in judgment of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Didn't say this in the OP, but the problem isn't in the facts themselves (see Dr. Habermas's One the Resurrection Volume 3: Scholarly Perspectives as survey data of many critics of Christianity who are specialists in the New Testament), it is in explaining all the facts.

So that would mean that the Jewish martyrs confirm the truth of Judaism?

Nope. It's just one of the facts. You have to explain ALL the facts together. Just as the Apostles believing Christ rose from the dead is not proof in itself, it is just one of the facts. You must come up with an explanation that explains all the facts.

I don't know that this was the case either. There is no convincing evidence that James believed this.

I mean, you are free to disagree with Jewish NT scholars if you want, but you don't really have the knowledge to be an authority on the topic.

I find it truly strange that you think people convert for gain. I have made a study of why people convert from one faith to another, and there are many different reasons. But I've never run across personal gain being one.

I don't. I didn't say I did. It is simply worded that way because that is one of the common accusations that many make for why people convert to a religion. It is commonly said that the Church is an entity meant to control people, so they convert to also control people.

 

[meowzician]

@meowzician, since you converted to Judaism...

My friend, please stop. First, like I said, I already traveled this part of the journey long long ago. I'm quite familiar not only with Michael Brown, but with significant minds and hearts in Messianic Judaism far more powerful, compelling, and endearing than him.

I will give you a head's up about Messianic Judaism, but only because it is so ironic that it always makes me smile. Messianic Judaism has utterly failed in its mission to convert Jews. Go into any Messianic Judaism congregation, and you will find very, very few Jews. They are flooded with Gentiles. Epic fail!

On the flip side, if you visit a class for conversion to Orthodox Judaism, you will very likely find that every ex-Christian there spent some time in Messianic Judaism.

Messianic Judaism is a pitstop for Gentile Christians on their way to becoming Jews. If you want people to remain Christian, it is the very last place you should send them.

My dear new friend. I promise you, there was nothing quick or easy about my conversion. It took a full twenty years. I left no stone unturned. There is nothing you can tell me that I haven't already wrestled with.

 

[QuickTwist]

My friend, please stop. First, like I said, I already traveled this part of the journey long long ago. I'm quite familiar not only with Michael Brown, but with significant minds and hearts in Messianic Judaism far more powerful, compelling, and endearing than him.

I will give you a head's up about Messianic Judaism, but only because it is so ironic that it always makes me smile. Messianic Judaism has utterly failed in its mission to convert Jews. Go into any Messianic Judaism congregation, and you will find very, very few Jews. They are flooded with Gentiles. Epic fail!

On the flip side, if you visit a class for conversion to Orthodox Judaism, you will very likely find that every ex-Christian there spent some time in Messianic Judaism.

Messianic Judaism is a pitstop for Gentile Christians on their way to becoming Jews. If you want people to remain Christian, it is the very last place you should send them.

My dear new friend. I promise you, there was nothing quick or easy about my conversion. It took a full twenty years. I left no stone unturned. There is nothing you can tell me that I haven't already wrestled with.

That's fine that you are very confident in your position.

I ask you this question: IF Jesus was raised from the dead, would Christianity be true?

 

[meowzician]

I mean, you are free to disagree with Jewish NT scholars if you want, but you don't really have the knowledge to be an authority on the topic.

I suspect that those you call scholars and those I call scholars are not the same group. My guess is that for you it is Christian theologians who are the trustworthy scholars. For me, theologians have an agenda and can't be trusted to be objective. The scholars I listen to have PhD's in things like Near Eastern Studies, Ancient History, Linguistics, Archaeology, etc.

I don't. I didn't say I did. It is simply worded that way because that is one of the common accusations that many make for why people convert to a religion. It is commonly said that the Church is an entity meant to control people, so they convert to also control people.

I understand. This is confirmation bias at work in those coming from the perspective that religion is a bad thing.

 

[meowzician]

That's fine that you are very confident in your position.

I ask you this question: IF Jesus was raised from the dead, would Christianity be true?

No.

 

[QuickTwist]

I suspect that those you call scholars and those I call scholars are not the same group. My guess is that for you it is Christian theologians who are the trustworthy scholars. For me, theologians have an agenda and can't be trusted to be objective. The scholars I listen to have PhD's in things like Near Eastern Studies, Ancient History, Linguistics, Archaeology, etc.

Yes, Jewish PhD scholars who study the NT... And atheist NT scholars.. Agnostics, etc. Yes, specialists, not Joe blow down the street.

 

[QuickTwist]

No.

Why not?

 

[meowzician]

Yes, Jewish PhD scholars who study the NT... And atheist NT scholars.. Agnostics, etc. Yes, specialists, not Joe blow down the street.

Got it. Good to know we have that in common.

 

[meowzician]

Why not?

Because being risen from the dead is not evidence of being the Messiah, nor is it proof of being God. I'm sure you believe that Lazarus rose from the dead, right?

The emphasis in the Tanakh is actually not on the Messiah, but the messianic age. Those Jews who believe in a literal person who will be the messiah believe that this is the man who will rule Israel during that idyllic era of peace and justice. Since the world is neither just nor at peace, that era has not yet arrived, so, no messiah.

You should also become aware that there are religious Jews who see the Messiah as a metaphor for those things WE do to help bring about that messianic age.

 

[QuickTwist]

Because being risen from the dead is not evidence of being the Messiah

Psalm 22, which I am sure you are aware of...

nor is it proof of being God.

"But Saul grew stronger and kept confounding the Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah."

The emphasis in the Tanakh is actually not on the Messiah, but the messianic age.

I believe in a Messianic age as well... It's called the Millennial reign.

You should also become aware that there are religious Jews who see the Messiah as a metaphor for those things WE do to help bring about that messianic age.

Some things are metaphorical... the "Son of David" is not...

 

[aeon]

I have no objections. Your opinion is your own. Believe what you like. That’s none of my business.

Cheers,
Ian