2nd Amendment - what's the point?

[sprinkles]

I tried to get back on topic. The statistics had not been posted, and it was a new argument for the discussion.

The statistics are pretty obvious, they go without saying, the argument is not new, and that ground has been very thoroughly covered.

It also ignores the many statements that the 2nd Amendment and gun control are separate issues.

 

[j654dgj7]

The statistics are pretty obvious, they go without saying, the argument is not new, and that ground has been very thoroughly covered.

It also ignores the many statements that the 2nd Amendment and gun control are separate issues.

They seemed pretty relevant to me. I don't agree with the statement that the 2nd amendment and gun control are two separate issues.

 

[sprinkles]

They seemed pretty relevant to me. I don't agree with the statement that the 2nd amendment and gun control are two separate issues.

Your disagreement is mistaken.

 

[sprinkles]

And case in point: If they weren't separate issues, we wouldn't have ANY gun control without first repealing the 2nd Amendment. But somehow we've managed to keep fully automatic weapons out of the hands of most people. So logically speaking the relationship between the two is not unequivocal.

 

[Matt3737]

All this Second Amendment "right to bear arms" is dependent on the interpretation of the US constitution which hasn't always been interpreted in the way it is today. From the Wikipedia article:

"In United States v. Cruikshank (1876), the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that, "The right to bear arms is not granted by the Constitution; neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence" and limited the applicability of the Second Amendment to the federal government.[9] In United States v. Miller (1939), the Supreme Court ruled that the federal government and the states could limit any weapon types not having a "reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia"

Those that that think this is some of sacred right are mistaken.

Who are you even speaking to? I don't think you are really paying attention to anything being said and just generalizing because I said absolutely nothing of the sort:

As to the original topic, I think the US could do with some gun reform. We don't allow private access to nuclear weapons. Why should we allow access to weapons designed for mass killings? The problem isn't even necessarily with guns at all, but our culture that is overly greedy and selfish that it would rather profit from gun sales and disregard mental health and well-being issues than make any societal change to better everyone's lives rather than the wealthy few. We have a society that encourages people to only care about themselves by and large.

[MENTION=5601]ezra[/MENTION] I later on in the thread posted some of my reasoning behind America's culture of aggression and competition in which you yourself thumbed up:

http://www.infjs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30800&page=6&p=858231#post858231

It's very offensive when you do not listen to the person or people you are speaking to and generalize and mischaracterize their thoughts and beliefs. Who are you addressing or arguing against? Are you generalizing me and [MENTION=6917]sprinkles[/MENTION] statements together with [MENTION=680]just me[/MENTION] 's? Because I wasn't very happy with some of his statements either and went as far as to call him out on it:

Being embarrassingly indignant isn't constructive or helpful in the slightest.

Using the concern for the lives and well-being of others to dismiss the same feelings towards other's arguments is just gross hypocrisy and negligence. You can make a better effort than that.

How about a little more respect and civility and address one another as individuals and not generalizing?

 

[j654dgj7]

[MENTION=5601]ezra[/MENTION] I later on in the thread posted some of my reasoning behind America's culture of aggression and competition in which you yourself thumbed up:

http://www.infjs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30800&page=6&p=858231#post858231

It's very offensive when you do not listen to the person or people you are speaking to and generalize and mischaracterize their thoughts and beliefs. Who are you addressing or arguing against? Are you generalizing me and [MENTION=6917]sprinkles[/MENTION] statements together with [MENTION=680]just me[/MENTION] 's? Because I wasn't very happy with some of his statements either and went as far as to call him out on it:

How about a little more respect and civility and address one another as individuals and not generalizing?

Those two opinions are not mutually exclusive. I agree that America has a culture of aggression, but I also hold the belief that the 2nd amendment is largely to blame for the victims of the current culture of violence and shootings.

I will gladly take on my share of responsibility for veering off topic, but can you blame me for doing so with how people are behaving in this thread?

 

[j654dgj7]

You people are very easily offended by a few questions and statistics.

 

[sprinkles]

You people are very easily offended by a few questions and statistics.

More like annoyed by pointless repetition.

I bet I know why you're afraid to come here. It's because you know that somebody will eventually get sick of your shit.

 

[Matt3737]

Those two opinions are not mutually exclusive. I agree that America has a culture of aggression, but I also hold the belief that the 2nd amendment is largely to blame for the victims of the current culture of violence and shootings.

I will gladly take on my share of responsibility for veering off topic, but can you blame me for doing so with how people are behaving in this thread?

No, but you certainly mischaracterized them towards [MENTION=6917]sprinkles[/MENTION] now didn't you? Who are you blaming for your poor behavior here? You say you take your share of responsibility, but in the same sentence make it seem like others are to blame?

I don't agree with the statement that the 2nd amendment and gun control are two separate issues.

Exclusion or inclusion involves TWO issues. We have been covering these issues and you want to ignore and mischaracterize everything we've said so far.

You people are very easily offended by a few questions and statistics.

Who are you talking to here? Generalizing again already? You're a classy guy, you know that? I have already stated my opinion (the one you thumbed up) and it's now on you to elaborate and emphasize why you believe these issues are so intimately conjoined instead of resorting to petty generalized insults.

If you have a legitimate point to make, then by all means. If not, then keep the childish nonsense to yourself. I made my statement clear that I am for some measure of gun control and I've made clear what my stance is on America's cultural climate. Stick to the issues.

 

[Kgal]

How much of a factor is concern about one's own government connected to gun ownership in the US?
Is it a common, or fringe factor?
Is this a matter of historical attitude from centuries past, or an actual concern about future problems with one's own government?


I wonder if the prospect of bearing arms against one's own government is common in republics (where the break-away from the original colony was inimical); or is it connected to republics that have had civil wars?? I'm not too clued up on US history.

Honestly Flavus I don't know how much is due to any particular belief. Everyone I know in my "real" world does not trust our government and is becoming increasingly agitated and alarmed at what they're seeing. Everyone I know in my real life also has a gun. Whether it be one in their closet inherited from their Dad - or one they purchased for a CHL class - we all have guns down here. As I stated before it's a normal thing and most view them as tools.

One aspect of comparing the US with other Western Societies is our age. Australia comes closest to us in terms of age of a society. Did you guys put the right to bear arms in your constitution?

The rest of Western Society has great stability within their cultures due to the fact they've been there on the land for 1000's of years. Some of the structures built back then are still being used today. We have nothing like that here in the US. We have no stability...no traditions...no long standing strength to inherit from our ancestors. We only know war and conquest and struggle to survive. For example the Great Depression was only 85 years ago...well within living people's memories. We've had Civil War. Who else in Western societies has had one in recent history? France comes to mind....but again they were an old society and had inherent strengths and coping skills no American has ever had. Plus.... France is one country...like one state. The US is a collection of disparate regions and 50 frikken states. Lots and lots of egos and power mongering opportunity.

imo - US citizens are suffering from ptsd and it's being highly triggered by the enormous effort of our media and those who own them to push Fear out into the minds of the general public. I mean you guys from other countries have got to be scratching your heads as to why we are the Bully on the globe...and I don't blame you one bit....for we do appear to be insane.

I am suggesting we are appearing insane precisely because those who are in charge....want us that way.

 

[sprinkles]

You want us to be gun toting badguys so that your preexisting worldview isn't wrong.

There's really nothing we can do, is there? You have it all figured out and will never accept alternatives.

 

[Matt3737]

You want us to be gun toting badguys so that your preexisting worldview isn't wrong.

There's really nothing we can do, is there? You have it all figured out and will never accept alternatives.

You have to actually go out and buy a gun first [MENTION=6917]sprinkles[/MENTION].

You had to state that, what, twice in the same thread? That you don't even own a gun, right?

 

[j654dgj7]

More like annoyed by pointless repetition.

I bet I know why you're afraid to come here. It's because you know that somebody will eventually get sick of your shit.

No, but you certainly mischaracterized them towards [MENTION=6917]sprinkles[/MENTION] now didn't you? Who are you blaming for your poor behavior here? You say you take your share of responsibility, but in the same sentence make it seem like others are to blame?

Exclusion or inclusion involves TWO issues. We have been covering these issues and you want to ignore and mischaracterize everything we've said so far.

Who are you talking to here? Generalizing again already? You're a classy guy, you know that? I have already stated my opinion (the one you thumbed up) and it's now on you to elaborate and emphasize why you believe these issues are so intimately conjoined instead of resorting to petty generalized insults.

If you have a legitimate point to make, then by all means. If not, then keep the childish nonsense to yourself. I made my statement clear that I am for some measure of gun control and I've made clear what my stance is on America's cultural climate. Stick to the issues.

I don't know how it came to this. I don't think that I've been childish, and I'm not staying away from America because "someone will get sick of my shit". I have been making my opinions known, and I feel like everyone else is ganging up on me for doing so. I respect everyone's point of view, I don't respect demeaning rhetoric that states that I am somehow incapable to following a straight-forward discussion, or incapable of understanding simple points of view.

I'm guilty of responding to shitty accusations and thereby contributing to the derailing of this thread. That's it.

EDIT: In fact I have lived in America for longer periods of time. Luckily the people I met there were more interested in talking about issues than you two are.

 

[sprinkles]

You have to actually go out and buy a gun first [MENTION=6917]sprinkles[/MENTION].

You had to state that, what, twice in the same thread? That you don't even own a gun, right?

I used to have three. I got rid of them. They weren't something that I wanted to keep in my life. I don't want to worry about shooting people.

However, that is my prerogative and I for one am actually able to separate my own sentiments from generalized principles. A skill which other people apparently lack.

 

[Matt3737]

I don't know how it came to this. I don't think that I've been childish, and I'm not staying away from America because "someone will get sick of my shit". I have been making my opinions known, and I feel like everyone else is ganging up on me for doing so. I respect everyone's point of view, I don't respect demeaning rhetoric that states that I am somehow incapable to following a straight-forward discussion, or incapable of understanding simple points of view.

I'm guilty of responding to shitty accusations and thereby contributing to the derailing of this thread. That's it.

I understand man. It's easy to get caught up in something your passionate about. I'm not trying to gang up on you or dismiss your thoughts and concerns. I'm just trying to share my views so we can all reach a mutual understanding.

 

[Matt3737]

EDIT: In fact I have lived in America for longer periods of time. Luckily the people I met there were more interested in talking about issues than you two are.

I'm trying to, but you're not really working with me here. Unless you mean to say being in complete agreement with you. I said I was for some gun reform. I'm waiting on your response.

 

[j654dgj7]

I'm trying to, but you're not really working with me here. Unless you mean to say being in complete agreement with you. I said I was for some gun reform. I'm waiting on your response.

I understand man. It's easy to get caught up in something your passionate about. I'm not trying to gang up on you or dismiss your thoughts and concerns. I'm just trying to share my views so we can all reach a mutual understanding.

Yeah exactly. I didn't mean to offend you or anyone else, things just got heated I guess. I respect your opinions and you've made good points. It's a hot topic, and I get very heavily invested in it. Truce?

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=5601]ezra[/MENTION]
You like talking. I like progress. I like progress but we're not making any.

Let's just take turns saying "I disagree." It'll be quicker and accomplish just as much.

 

[Matt3737]

Yeah exactly. I didn't mean to offend you or anyone else, things just got heated I guess. I respect your opinions and you've made good points. It's a hot topic, and I get very heavily invested in it. Truce?

It's cool man. I appreciate being able to settle things more amicably. It's very cool of you. I just wish we could better instill this sentiment into our culture. I think most of American culture is just far too overly aggressive and polemically highly charged.

 

[sprinkles]

Yeah exactly. I didn't mean to offend you or anyone else, things just got heated I guess. I respect your opinions and you've made good points. It's a hot topic, and I get very heavily invested in it. Truce?

I'm more mad at myself for talking to you than I am at you for posting. I shouldn't even be here and the way I feel somehow conditioned to respond when I don't necessarily desire to do so is kind of pissing me off.

I'm getting no benefits. None. I'm not here because I like it.