[PUG] Abortion

[slant]

women under the age of 15 count for less then 1.2% of abortions, rape and incest acount for 1% of abortions. Take classes on self protection, learn to prevent it from happening in the first place. I know 4 year old who take martial arts.

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html website for your viewing pleasure

In person, I know several people who were under the age of 15 who were raped at that time; and even if it is a low statistic, does that really mean we shouldn't make an effort to protect that minority? I'd hate to see a 13 year old forced to give birth.

I think that recreational sex is an entirely different matter. I always keep in mind that sex, heterosexual sex at least, has a purpose for reproduction and anyone involved in that should be aware of it. I personally feel people should stop having heterosexual sex and switch to a much-less complicated homosexual intercourse lifestyle. Or, stop having sex entirely.

I see your point. I agree with you on the matter that maybe women who are having sex so freely and have the education to know about childbirth and the consequences of high risk sex might need to have a little more reconsideration in abortion; but I will say I differ with you about abortion.

To me, saying that a woman who is raped who never planned on having children in the first place but does not want to be sterilized- maybe because of cost, maybe because of, like me, the hormonal and adverse physical effects it can have, should carry out the child to full term? Just because I was born a woman does not mean that I need to have a child. If someone rapes me and I do not want the baby, it is sexist to say that I must carry the child because of processes in my body that I do not control.

Being pregnant effect's a woman's life on so many aspects. If it something she does not want, and she has consistently been responsible in ensuring this would not happen and out of the blue someone sticks their wick in her and gets her pregnant than I believe they should have an opt out option.

I kind of could relate the situation to men....

If a man was raped, and let's say hypothetically they could chose whether or not to have an STD or not to have one, this is kind of like forcing them to have an STD for a period of time that is similar to the amount of time a woman would bare a child. If it's a bacterial based STD then technically it is very similar because the virus is living off it's host and is completely dependent upon them. Like women, a man would have to alter their life and would be effected by this STD in numerous ways. It would raise health risks and such. If a man had this choice I'm sure he would pick not to have one; the fact of killing a life, a bacteria which is still living, would not matter.

Suggesting that abortion is morally wrong because of it ending a life is invalid if you have ever killed an insect, went on a hunting trip, or consumed meat. If you only think killing humans is wrong and you have ever supported a war or been a solider and killed a man or woman then, there goes your argument. You could even stretch it and pull out environmental factors such as polluting and wasting food as CONTRIBUTING to the death of millions of lives; isn't that morally corrupt?

I mean...how do you justify the -end of a human life is morally wrong- when you look at all of those other factors? Did you support killing Saddam Hussein? The death penalty? The murder of JFK's alleged shooter?

 

[Questingpoet]

This is one of those subjects that I never get involved in. I have my opinions and beliefs, but keep them to myself and don't want others trying to push their beliefs on me. I am very humanistic in my approach to life. I do not look down on those who choose to take a traditional religious approach to life. I have many spiritual beliefs. They tend to not line up with the more popular religions dogma's. My approach is right for me. It may not be so for you. I have four kids and have been in several spots of decision. I have lived this.

With that being said, I do not approach this subject with a religious slant. People who cannot and do not SERIOUSLY take a objective point of view here lose my attention quickly. Don't give me surreal and religious arguments, they do not sway me. I am sorry to say this, you young intellectuals will not want to hear this, but at 18 you do not have the life experience or wisdom to bring forth judgement on such a complicated and emotional subject as abortion. You cannot get everything from books and holy scripture. I don't care how smart you are. Some things take time. Believe that! I know you will hate this statement, but it is the honest truth. People need to hold their damn judgemental opinions until they can couple it with wisdom. It is more rare than diamonds. It is more mistaken than love. Don't tell others how to live. That includes abortion.

 

[Satya]

If they would outlaw abortion then yes.

I'm getting the feeling you are no longer taking the arguments I am making seriously, and so I will leave this thread. You are entitled to your values and beliefs Barnabas, but issues are seldom black and white, and I think you are seeking to make this a dichotomous issue. Regardless of whether or not you choose to recognize it, there is no fault in respecting people's right to choose. Doing so puts you under no obligation to support or agree with abortion. And I think in time you will learn that you can accomplish much more by respecting the freedom of others, even if they make mistakes and poor choices with that freedom, because by simply respecting that freedom you put yourself in a position to offer better options.

You will never be responsible for the choices that other people make and so the only obligation you have is to the choices you make. Do you really think making abortion illegal will improve the outcome? Or might a better choice be to allow the option of abortion while improving upon alternative solutions and creating new ones? I firmly believe the latter choice does far more to decrease the number of abortions than the former does, but it is your choice to make. I respect your right to choose.

 

[alcyone]

If you don't want children entirley get your tubes tiedfrom what I know it can be undone at later time if the woman wishes (correct me if i'm wrong please). My mother did after my birth. Maternal death from child birth is so unlikley that it is barley an a factor in a modern society. And as I said, if the birth forces risk, then it is the mothers decision.

Getting the tubes tied doesn't end the chance of getting pregnant. There is a slim possibility of an egg getting fertilized and implanting in the fallopian tubes anyway, resulting in an etopic pregnancy that could end up being fatal if not caught before it bursts the tubes.

As for getting it undone, that too is limited. Even if the procedure is successful the chances of getting pregnant are maybe 20 percent due to the scar tissue that will form in the fallopian tubes. It also increases the chances of etopic pregnancies.

 

[Barnabas]

4..

so any woman whose never been pregnant can't have an opinion either.

Actually, both ring worms and tape worms come to maturity inside the body of their host. Having a host is a requirement for their survival and the continuation of their separate species. And being that both of them are completely different species makes it impossible for them to be human to begin with and to compare them to a human pregnancy. What is your point?

No one wants a tape worm or ring worm so it's okay to go to a doctor and get something to remove it from your body. If a woman doesn't want a pregnancy she should be allowed the same right. To remove the parasite from her body. Legally sanctioned and medically safe..

so the difference in the species mean the difference from being apart of the being. I don't see the logic in that

I know you based on what you say. And I've been reading what you say in this forum for a while now. And it is naive to tell me you'd view a rape pregnancy as a miracle in the hypothetical without actually living the situation. It is very easy to say what you would do hypothetically (i.e. talk the talk), what would end up doing in real life is something you won't know until it happens....and I hope that you NEVER find yourself in this situation. .

I am safe in my own decision, I know my character. You however do not and are not in a position to make judgements about it.

But please show me these posts that say contrary.

Isn't that what you are doing with this topic? You are acting like you know all the people who need to make life altering decisions like abortions. These topics you post are you acting like you know what is best for everyone is every situation. You started this topic telling women basically....'Unless there is the chance you could lose your life in pregnancy or childbirth, you must carry your pregnancy to term!'. How is that NOT acting like you are omniscient about every pregnancy situation? .

I've stated multiple times, that if there is to be an abortion it should be done because the doctor says it is neccasary, and then be done at the decision of the mother.

Angry from childbirth? Seriously? The most universal emotion I've encountered immediately following childbirth is relief that it is freaking OVER! Naive wasn't the proper term for your comprehension for the totality of the experience of pregnancy and childbirth.....the proper term should be 'clueless'.

Mad as in mad as a hatter.

Death from childbirth rates in civilized countries are low certainly. But physically, how many women walk away from childbirth unaltered? Zero. The physical alternations that take place on the body are permanent and never go away.

Are they social upheaving life defining changes, I doubt it. Now birth on the other hand is a life defining moment for a person.


---------------------------------------------
night guys, feel free to post but i'm going to bed

 

[Entyqua]

I just wanna throw this out there...what about the 72 hour pill...if I were raped and there was any possibility of pregnancy. Actually I would get it no matter what. Imaginge what you would have to say to that hild when it gets older? Mommy who's my daddy? Seriously!!!

 

[bamf]

What would you tell your child if they survived an abortion?

Would a congrats be in order?
(sorry, back to topic)

 

[alcyone]

so any woman whose never been pregnant can't have an opinion either.

SOOOOOOO unoriginal and predictable. You bore me. You can have all the opinions you want. But all woman's arguments (whether or not they have had children, or whether or not they can have children) will always carry more weight in a topic like this....even the women who side with your opinions.

so the difference in the species mean the difference from being apart of the being. I don't see the logic in that

Of course you don't, since everything I am saying doesn't march with your particular party line you see no logic in any of it. Just like the above statement makes no sense at all. You tried to say that the baby isn't a part of the mothers body. I said it is, and by the definition of a parasite (look it us if you know how to use a dictionary) a fetus acts like a parasite on the female body. You replied with some sort of nonsense about tape worms and ring worms, and I pointed out that just like a fetus, those critters require a host to live.

I've stated multiple times, that if there is to be an abortion it should be done because the doctor says it is neccasary, and then be done at the decision of the mother.

Yeah. You are saying that a woman doesn't have the right to decide whether or not to carry a pregancy to term. It is up to a Doctor first, and then the mother. And only if it is a medical necessity.....

And I am saying that a woman has the right to decide whether or not to carry any pregnancy to term. And a woman has the right to have access to medical professionals and safe sanitary medical facilities if she chooses to have an abortion....for ANY reason.

Mad as in mad as a hatter.

WTF?

Are they social upheaving life defining changes, I doubt it. Now birth on the other hand is a life defining moment for a person.

Sophistry! That is all you bring to any discussion you start! You have no logic. You have no rationale. Birth is a life defining moment for a person? Birth is a beginning. It is not life defining.

Childbirth is not a social upheaving life defining moment? Does the new-born walk out of the hospital fully grown, educated, and ready to take a part in society? It is entirely possible I missed something along the way here because last time I checked I acquired the title and responsibilities of 'Mommy' when I left the hospital with my firstborn almost a decade ago (damn...you were only 8 years old when I became a parent....). You trying to tell me that isn't a social upheaval or life defining? Funny, I didn't realize that the 'Parent' label had a expiration date.

I am done with this conversation. You are woefully incapable of understanding the entire spectrum of a topic such as this. Stuck in a black/white idealistic mindset like you are, you will never be able to hold a decent rational and logical discussion about topics like this one.

 

[IndigoSensor]

Friendly reminder, keep the tempature low people. Think chill

 

[Shai Gar]

You guys are bastards. This would have been a fun thread for me to enter from the beginning. Instead I've got to prepare the kitchen to be cleaned, and then shower and go out.

Not fucking cricket guys, this is not fucking cricket.

 

[ec3khrl]

Right to live ?????

You seriously think "that" is the case?

Everyday there are countless deaths from murder, conflicts, negligence, stupidity, convictions, religions, traditions, famine, poverty, politics, superstitions, law penalties, extreme conditions that can prove you wrong just as easy.

Hello~ Right to live~ Say Hi~

 

[Norton]

There have always been abortions and there will always be abortions, legal or not, safe or not. That there is so much argument is merely an indication of the issue's complexity. That is, it is not black or white. Were it as straightforward as "murder," there wouldn't be so much vociferous disagreement. Given the decades of legalized abortion in the US, it is highly unlikely that a Supreme Court reversal will do much more than kill a lot of women, much less end abortion. The technological trend is toward more, easier abortifacients, so the anti-abortionists are fighting a losing battle.

As to where to draw the line, I don't understand why the anti-abortionists don't try to outlaw masturbation and ovulation. After all, sperm and eggs are potential human beings. What about their rights?

 

[Kavalan]

Well the supreme court ruled in favor allowing foreign and domestic corporations to spend as much money on elections as they want so to say the supreme court will do a 180 isn't that far fetched...

 

[Eric86]

Sperm and eggs in and of themselves are not potential human beings. It is only when they combine that they have that potential.
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[Matariki]

As much as some of us disagree with the practice and idea of abortion we have to remember at the end of the day it is up to the individual to make that choice.

Do I see it as a selfish act? Yes.
But it is not my place to judge others for making that decision.
Taking a human life, unborn or not (or any life for that matter) does not rest easy with my conscience.

Sex, in my mind should be only reserved to those that are ready to take on the responsibility of a child, even with protection, one should consider the possibilities.

The only time I could see an abortion taking place would be in a case of rape or severe medical problems where there is no other choice.

Darn it, why do I keep missing out on the fun on these sort of threads?

 

[myself]

so frustrating to watch people debate this

wheres crow when you really really need him ?

if a mother kills her new born baby, it is her business. she might have a great reason for doing so, she might not.

that's life. it's a cruel world.

:deadhorse:

 

[Norton]

Sperm and eggs in and of themselves are not potential human beings. It is only when they combine that they have that potential.
Posted via Mobile Device

A fetus in itself is not a potential human being. It is only when it continues to be implanted in the endometrium that it has potential.

 

[ec3khrl]

so frustrating to watch people debate this

wheres crow when you really really need him ?

if a mother kills her new born baby, it is her business. she might have a great reason for doing so, she might not.

that's life. it's a cruel world.

:deadhorse:

Ya it's sad, this is some topic clearly beyond the need to debate.
When we are sitting here after 3 meals a day, warm, fuzzy and content, we start to think about the morality of abortion and the right to live or those philosophical questions, while there are millions out there this moment didn't even have enough food to take a shit for dinner, and brave they are many of them still have hope and keep struggling to survive another day despite their innocence in such tragedy in mass numbers.


When a new life is born under such environment it cannot be undone, but I think we shouldn't make it any worse if possible should we?

 

[forgetblueskies]

So it's up to the woman to prevent rape, huh? How about we teach men how NOT to rape instead of the other way around? So it's the WOMAN'S fault if she can't defend herself? It's HER fault for "letting" herself get raped? That is absolute bullshit! I was sexually abused by my brother for seven years. Are you saying that it was MY fault for allowing that to happen?? The point is women shouldn't HAVE to defend themselves. And the only person who is responsible is the RAPIST.

 

[Barnabas]

So it's up to the woman to prevent rape, huh? How about we teach men how NOT to rape instead of the other way around? So it's the WOMAN'S fault if she can't defend herself? It's HER fault for "letting" herself get raped? That is absolute bullshit! I was sexually abused by my brother for seven years. Are you saying that it was MY fault for allowing that to happen?? The point is women shouldn't HAVE to defend themselves. And the only person who is responsible is the RAPIST.

I'm not saying it's your fault, and if i knew a way to teach men not to be monsters then I would but I don't. But learning how to defend yourself is not a bad idea regardless of the situation.

Do you think that I'm advocating on behalf of rapist? seriously?

how would you teach someone that is messed up enough to molest his sister that rape is wrong, how do know some one is rapist till after the crime. men like this should rot in jail.

what would you have men do to prevent rape?