Anyone here a extreme lover-of-Jesus?

[NobleKnight]

Being an atheist, and being not Christian are not the same thing.

Could you tell me more? I'm not really sure I know what you mean. In any case, I don't see what that has to do with my point. My point is, if he was anything other than a Christian or someone who believes that the Bible is the word of God, he would not have been met with such criticism. Yes, he could have handled the situation better, but he did apologies. He probably felt pretty confused by the negative responses, as if he was being convicted for the crimes committed by someone else and wasn't even sure what he was being convicted of. When someone gets angry at me for something that I am oblivious to, I tend to get defensive too and say things to rashly without understanding the situation. I'm just assuming he did the same thing.

 

[NobleKnight]

Depends how much hate the Atheist was promoting I suppose.



...and why wouldn't we have something against it? you can't just go round promoting hate unchecked.

Could you point me to some of this "hate promoting" you speak of, because I can't find any of it, either in this thread or any other. And yes, like I said, some of your reasons for your prejudice are quite valid. But what a lot of us do many times is project our prejudices onto someone else and immediately view what that person says from that lens and suspect from the very beginning that the person is just doing the very thing that brought us to the prejudice in the first place. Unfortunately, what happens is that a sentence is imputed upon the person even before he or she knows what the conviction is. The person will then try to defend themselves or their stance on something without understanding the conviction.

"I agree that the bible is largely irrelevant and is choc full of archaic cultural bias and should therefore not be taken seriously by anyone."

Agree with who, me? I never even hinted at it.

 

[Satya]

Could you point me to some of this "hate promoting" you speak of...

Are you still on this? It wasn't just this thread, but what he said prior to it that lead to much of the offense and discomfort about how he was going about it.

The Muslim statement that was made in this post about Shai.

http://forum.infjs.com/showpost.php?p=12009&postcount=18

In which he says...

"It saddens me that youre muslim, are you open to change with that?"

Obviously he dislikes Islam.

And his comment on science was here...

http://forum.infjs.com/showpost.php?p=11934&postcount=14

"Satan's most accepted tool to distract minds."

Obviously he dislikes science.

That can come off as hate promoting. Those who have different faiths are deserving of pity? Those who believe in science are under the influence of Satan? And that is just those two examples. He was the person who drew the line. If you believe the words, "judge not lest ye be judged" he brought it on himself.

 

[ZenCat]

Could you tell me more? I'm not really sure I know what you mean. In any case, I don't see what that has to do with my point. My point is, if he was anything other than a Christian or someone who believes that the Bible is the word of God, he would not have been met with such criticism. Yes, he could have handled the situation better, but he did apologies. He probably felt pretty confused by the negative responses, as if he was being convicted for the crimes committed by someone else and wasn't even sure what he was being convicted of. When someone gets angry at me for something that I am oblivious to, I tend to get defensive too and say things to rashly without understanding the situation. I'm just assuming he did the same thing.

I'd be happy to clarify if I understood what part of my statement you didn't understand. I do always initially try to make my statements very clear, but am always happy to reword my thoughts.

How about this: Just because somebody is not Christian, it does not mean they are an Atheist. To expand on that thought, if someone is an Atheist, it does not mean they are anti-Christian. You seemed to use Atheists as an example representing the opposite of or enemy of Christians, but perhaps I misunderstood you. I get the feeling that you're suggesting all Christians are anti-Atheist, or enemies of Atheists, which I do not believe because it would make me very sad indeed.

And as far as your point goes: "My point is, if he was anything other than a Christian or someone who believes that the Bible is the word of God, he would not have been met with such criticism."

If he was of any other religious affiliation spewing the kind of hate and judgmental venom I've read in this thread (and others), I'd have been just as taken aback, hence my comment that this thread is a superlative argument against religion. I did not wish to say and so didn't say that this thread is a superlative argument against Christianity, only that some of the most aggressively judgmental attitudes towards others seems to come from those who intensely adhere to their religion. Those who are extreme lovers of their religion. Religious Extremists, even.

 

[Quinlan]

Could you point me to some of this "hate promoting" you speak of, because I can't find any of it, either in this thread or any other.

Romans 1:26-32 (NIV)

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Calling people shameful, unnatural, indecent and perverted in an open forum is just picking for a fight.

And yes, like I said, some of your reasons for your prejudice are quite valid. But what a lot of us do many times is project our prejudices onto someone else and immediately view what that person says from that lens and suspect from the very beginning that the person is just doing the very thing that brought us to the prejudice in the first place. Unfortunately, what happens is that a sentence is imputed upon the person even before he or she knows what the conviction is. The person will then try to defend themselves or their stance on something without understanding the conviction.

I agree this is absolutely unfair and we must fight the urge to jump to conclusions.

"I agree that the bible is largely irrelevant and is choc full of archaic cultural bias and should therefore not be taken seriously by anyone."

Agree with who, me? I never even hinted at it.

Well you said that we must take into account the cultural context of everything that was written in the bible. Which I agree with, I therefore believe that because that culture is fairly ancient now and is nothing like the culture we have today then taking the word of the bible in this day and age seriously, doesn't make any sense. It's the irrelevant ramblings of bigoted ancient men.

 

[ZenCat]

Could you point me to some of this "hate promoting" you speak of, because I can't find any of it, either in this thread or any other.

Since you ask... these are some of the key phrases that made me recoil in horror:

• Because i would disagree...Catholics are very...ehhh. Close-minded?
• Haha, you should see what kind of people the INTP/J people gather. Mostly Atheists...meh. (death).
• Satan's most accepted tool to distract minds. (Science)
• "It saddens me that youre muslim, are you open to change with that?"

And then there's the whole dead baby/mass murder theme. Joke, yes. But I can't help it, it completely grossed me out when it kept surfacing again and again.

• You could cut off the babies legs, therefore they cant step anywhere. Hence you can jump right to mass murder!
• Only if you change "kicking a puppy" to mass murder of infants.

 

[NobleKnight]

Very interesting. I'll try to answer all of you in turn but I really need to sleep right now. Thanks for sharing.

 

[BlackKnightKisses]

I can see the hypocrisy of standards and prejudice you talk about NobleKnight. I see the mockery of Christianity on this site and those who do it proclaim themselves to be tolerant. It seems tolerance only applies when it to non Christians. But then again didn't Christ tell us "men will hate us for his name sake"

I go to a evolution thread and get told that Christian view is not welcome and shouldn't have anything to do with the thread. Antagonist start theads on Christian themes just to attack christianity and justify themselves. But when a Christian starts one like this which was a get to know who else in the forum hold the same beliefs to create freindships everyone who has something against christians has come to vent there splien. I marvel at the double standard.

 

[ZenCat]

See, this is the problem I'm having with this thread: The Us against Them theme.

I'm not against Christians, never have been. In fact, I have no religious prejudice whatsoever. I was raised to believe that we are all free to pursue the path to our personal peace and enlightenment in whichever way we choose, without judgment, but that we should do no harm to others in that pursuit.

Speaking only for myself, I do not find anything whatsoever to mock in Christianity. I do however find a great deal offensive in those who proclaim their particular sect of Christianity to be the only true Christianity. I know a lot of Christians, and few of them are radicals, though many are devout. I have never heard any of them make statements like the ones several of us posted (as requested) to illustrate what we found objectionable in this thread.

What I see is that you see many of us as mocking and intolerant, but you don't see the mocking and intolerance of those of us who do not adhere to an extremist Christian viewpoint.

After this, I think I'll stick to calmly discussing and learning about Christianity with Quakers in the future.

 

[BlackKnightKisses]

What I see is that you see many of us as mocking and intolerant, but you don't see the mocking and intolerance of those of us who do not adhere to an extremist Christian viewpoint.

Oh I do see the mocking and intolerance towards other groups but it has become reverse discrimination. Personally if I disagree I will say so but do not mock. I tolerate and agree to disagree. Christ was frowned on by the religious leaders because he associated with tax collectors and prostitutes. He didn't agree with what they were doing but was a friend to them. This is where I take my example. I put forward no compulsion on others to be as I am. Nobody is answerable to me. Everyone make their own choice and is ultimately answerable to God. The word says "work out your own salvation" and I believe everyone has a right to do that.

 

[alcyone]

You know, I've just spent the past 20 minutes writing up several different responses. But I came to the realization that it would do no good to post them because instead of anyone actually looking for why I (and I am using 'I' here cause I can't speak on anyone elses behalf) got sour on this particular thread...the only thing that will be seen is that I have now been branded as being prejudiced against everyone who follows a christian faith, mocking and intolerant, discriminatory, a hypocrite....and there fore everything I say is suspect and won't be heard. It will be interpeted through that lens.

All because I got uncomfortable enough with another example of extremism to actually speak up.

 

[Quinlan]

Fascinating insight into the lenses that we perceive the world through this thread.

 

[alcyone]

Although it has made me internalize a bit. I try to keep my lenses as clear and un colored as possible. They aren't perfect by any means. But I know my prejudices. And becuase I know them I can work with them and through them.

I don't care about someones religious affiliation as long as they aren't trying to kill me, convert me, or using it to place me in some niche. Like I am a piece of bric-a-brac that your dear crazy Auntie gave you and you don't dare throw it away (or hide it) because you know she'll be asking about it. So you stick it somewhere out of the way and shield it with 'your stuff'.

 

[Lurker]

*Time has well and truly come to move this to the Theology forum*

 

[TheLastMohican]

*Time has well and truly come to move this to the Theology forum*

Now why didn't I think of that?

(Hey presto, my 333rd post!)

 

[alcyone]

Can I go around and start random threads in the wrong forums just so you all can move them where they should be?

 

[TheLastMohican]

Can I go around and start random threads in the wrong forums just so you all can move them where they should be?

Well, it would make it look like Deathjam is not the only one serving a purpose around here...

 

[Satya]

This thread fills me with a great deal of sadness.

Jesus was a figure who wanted people to come together. He wanted us to be united and to love and forgive one another. Whether you see Jesus as a symbol, a prophet, a messiah, or even God incarnate, that is ultimately the message that has been lost in this thread. This is a thread of accusations, insults, and insinuations, which all serve to divide us. I'm no less guilty for contributing to this travesty and I regret that I've only shown the angry side of myself. It only serves to push away others when you attack what they believe instead of accepting and loving them for who they are. It's really sad that I didn't behave any better than Shade when it came to how I've treated the Christians on this forum. Just because you feel condemned does not give you the right to condemn, and it certainly serves no purpose to do so.

If there is anything that can be learned from this thread, it is that blame and accusations contribute nothing. We are no better off that we were before the initial confrontation. In fact, we may even be worse off since now people feel labeled and persecuted. Maybe we simply need to try accepting that we are all human and imperfect and we all have very good reasons for believing the way we do. We all know that people are going to make mistakes due to ignorance, inattention, or simply bad judgment, but each person has to come to understand those mistakes in their own time and in their own way. I think as long as we can value each other as unique individuals, we can look past these differences and even come to learn from each other.

 

[BlackKnightKisses]

This thread fills me with a great deal of sadness.

Jesus was a figure who wanted people to come together. He wanted us to be united and to love and forgive one another. Whether you see Jesus as a symbol, a prophet, a messiah, or even God incarnate, that is ultimately the message that has been lost in this thread. This is a thread of accusations, insults, and insinuations, which all serve to divide us. I'm no less guilty for contributing to this travesty and I regret that I've only shown the angry side of myself. It only serves to push away others when you attack what they believe instead of accepting and loving them for who they are. It's really sad that I didn't behave any better than Shade when it came to how I've treated the Christians on this forum. Just because you feel condemned does not give you the right to condemn, and it certainly serves no purpose to do so.

If there is anything that can be learned from this thread, it is that blame and accusations contribute nothing. We are no better off that we were before the initial confrontation. In fact, we may even be worse off since now people feel labeled and persecuted. Maybe we simply need to try accepting that we are all human and imperfect and we all have very good reasons for believing the way we do. We all know that people are going to make mistakes due to ignorance, inattention, or simply bad judgment, but each person has to come to understand those mistakes in their own time and in their own way. I think as long as we can value each other as unique individuals, we can look past these differences and even come to learn from each other.

Amenin a strait way

 

[ZenCat]

I am very relived to see a return to tolerance in this thread. I would also submit that I feel much of the conflict centers against the drawing of a thick black line between Christians and Atheists, which I believe can be erased if we remember that there are so many different practices and religious movements who exist under the banner of Christianity, a great many of whom have conflicting views.

I would be more comfortable if it were acknowledged that those who view themselves as Christians accept that many other Christians can hold views in opposition to their own, and should not be labeled as Atheists because those views are in contradiction to another Christian's values.

The list below (from the Religious Tolerance website) is by no means comprehensive, but I believe illustrates my point that all of the adherents to the religious affiliations below call themselves Christians, but not all of them will share each other's views. Therefore, anyone who does not share your personal views does not become, by default, an Atheist.

[FONT=arial,helvetica]The Amish [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]The Brethren[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Catholic Church (Roman Catholic)[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Children of God [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Christadelphians [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Christian Science [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Community of Christ: Formerly the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints:[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Eastern Orthodox churches[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]The Family (David Berg), (a.k.a. Family of Love)[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Polygynists in Bountiful, British Columbia, Canada[/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica] [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]The "Garbage Eaters": common derogatory name for The Brethren[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Gnosticism [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Jehovah's Witnesses[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]LDS Restorationists: a group of denominations who link their history to Joseph Smith's church [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Messianic Judaism & "Jews for Jesus" [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Orthodox churches[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]The Process[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Progressive Christianity [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Quakers (Society of Friends)[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints: Now called the Community of Christ[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Roman Catholic Church[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Seventh-Day Adventist Church [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Society of Friends (Quakers)[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Two by Twos ("The Jesus Way", "The Church with no Name", etc)[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Unification Church [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Unitarian-Universalism (About 10% of UU members consider themselves to be Christian)[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]United Pentecostal Church International[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Unity Church in Canada [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Unity School of Christianity[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Urantia Book [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica] Worldwide Church of God [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]The Way International[/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica]

[/FONT]http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_cf.htm