Are we as a society being kept from discussing the big issues?

[muir]

[h=1]Family win 18 year fight over MMR damage to son: £90,000 payout is first since concerns over vaccine surfaced[/h] By Martin Delgado
UPDATED: 23:35, 28 August 2010

162
View
comments

A mother whose son suffered severe brain damage after he was given the controversial MMR vaccine as a baby has been awarded £90,000 compensation.
The judgment is the first of its kind to be revealed since concerns were raised about the safety of the triple jab.
Robert Fletcher, 18, is unable to talk, stand unaided or feed himself.

Lovely boy: Robert Fletcher with his mother Jackie at the age of 14

He endures frequent epileptic fits and requires round-the-clock care from his parents Jackie and John, though he is not autistic.

He suffered the devastating effects after being given the combined measles, mumps and rubella vaccine when he was 13 months old.


[h=4]More...[/h]

• Cervical cancer jab for girls aged 12 can be given without parental consent

The Department of Health had always denied that the jab was the cause of Robert’s disability.
But now, in a judgment which will give hope to hundreds of other parents whose children have been severely affected by routine vaccinations, a medical assessment panel consisting of two doctors and a barrister has concluded that MMR was to blame.
Robert’s mother Jackie said the money would help with his care, though she described the amount as ‘derisory’.
Her first application for compensation under the Government’s Vaccine Damage Payment Scheme was rejected in 1997 on the grounds that it was impossible to prove beyond reasonable doubt what had caused Robert’s illness.
But Mrs Fletcher appealed and in a ruling delivered last week, a new panel of experts came to a different conclusion.

Healthy: Robert in the bath as baby before he had the MMR jab

In a six-page judgment, they said: ‘Robert was a more or less fit boy who, within the period usually considered relevant to immunisation, developed a severe convulsion... and he then went on to be epileptic and severely retarded.
‘The seizure occurred ten days after the vaccination. In our view, this cannot be put down to coincidence.

'It is this temporal association that provides the link. It is this that has shown on the balance of probabilities that the vaccination triggered the epilepsy.

'On this basis, we find that Robert is severely disabled as a result of vaccination and this is why we allowed the appeal.’
The ruling will reignite the debate over the safety of common childhood vaccines, although it makes clear that Robert’s case does not involve autism.
There is one other reported case of a family being given compensation as a result of an MMR jab.
But Mrs Fletcher said she believed the compensation award to Robert was the first to a surviving MMR-damaged person since controversy erupted in 1998 when the now discredited Dr Andrew Wakefield raised concerns about a possible link between the combined MMR injection and autism.

He has since been struck off the medical register.

Affected: Robert with his parents as a five-year-old. He is unable to stand, feed himself and speaks very little

The Government refuses to say how many awards have been directly attributed to this jab rather than other inoculations against illnesses such as diphtheria or whooping cough.
Details of successful claims involving vaccine-damaged children are seldom publicised because the Department of Health is thought to be anxious not to encourage a rush of applications.

Figures released in 2005 under the Freedom of Information Act revealed that tribunals had paid out £3.5 million over the previous eight years.
The Department for Work and Pensions, which administers the Vaccine Damage Payment Scheme, said: ‘We do not hold any information on how many awards have been MMR-related.

'It is not a requirement when a case is being assessed for the medical adviser to state which vaccine the damage has been attributed to.

'Nor is it a requirement to list the disabling condition that gave rise to the award.’
The controversy over a suggested link between MMR and autism erupted in 1998 when Dr Wakefield published a paper in The Lancet medical journal.
His work has since been discredited and earlier this year Dr Wakefield, who has moved to America, was struck off the medical register after the General Medical Council ruled that he had acted against the interests of patients and ‘failed in his duties as a responsible consultant’.

Campaign: Robert's mother Jackie set up JABS - a pressure group which provides advice and support to families affected by vaccinations

Robert Fletcher does not suffer from autism. But Mrs Fletcher, from Warrington, Cheshire, said the ruling would give hope to hundreds of other parents fighting to prove that their children’s disabilities were caused by the MMR injection.

Mrs Fletcher set up and runs pressure group JABS - Justice, Awareness and Basic
Support.

Around 2,000 families seeking compensation for their vaccine-damaged children are registered with the group, which provides advice and support.

‘My husband John and I have battled for 18 years for the cause of Robert’s disability to be officially recognised,’ she said.
‘We were told the vaccine was perfectly safe. Like most people, we trusted what the doctors and nurses were putting to us.

'Robert is nearly 19 but mentally he is like a 14-month-old toddler. He can’t stand unaided and he is doubly incontinent.

'He can’t speak except to say “Hi, Mum” or “Hi, Daddy”.
‘We chop up his food and have to anticipate all his needs. He is prone to various illnesses and last week suffered around 40 severe epileptic seizures.

Discredited: Dr Andrew Wakefield was struck off by the GMC after it found his research into the possible effects of MMR was flawed

'In April this year, we thought we’d lost him. He contracted a chest infection and had to go to hospital for several days.
‘He is such a lovely boy. When he’s not ill, he’s so cheerful and seems to take everything on the chin. In between seizures he says “Hi, Mum” and tries to kiss me.
‘The money is a derisory amount though it will help with making adaptations to the house for Robert’s benefit.

'What matters is the recognition that MMR was the reason this happened.’
The first doctor who assessed Robert under the compensation scheme in 1996 concluded that he had suffered a ‘simple febrile convulsion with no long-lasting consequences’.

Although he agreed that Robert had a degree of disability, he refused to accept that the MMR vaccine was to blame.

At this month’s appeal, evidence was given by a leading expert on vaccine-damaged children, paediatric neurologist Dr Marcel Kinsbourne. He explained the biological changes which had occurred in Robert’s brain following the vaccination.
The one-day hearing was chaired by a barrister sitting with two doctors, Professor Sundara Lingam, a former consultant at Great Ormond Street Hospital for Children, and Dr Adrian Allaway.

In a dissenting judgment, Professor Lingam said he believed Robert was ‘genetically predisposed to epilepsy and that the vaccination triggered it rather than caused it.
'Robert would have developed epilepsy in any event, even if he had not had the vaccination’.
But Professor Lingam was overruled by his two colleagues.
In their final judgment, they accepted that MMR had caused Robert’s illness but added: ‘We would stress that this decision is fact-specific and it should not be seen as a precedent for any other case.

'In particular, it has no relevance to the issue... as to whether there is a link between the MMR vaccine and autism.’
Last night, Tory MP Nadine Dorries, a member of the powerful Commons Health Committee, said: ‘If an independent panel has reached the conclusion that there has been a link between the MMR vaccine and the brain damage suffered by this boy in this case, then it is fair to assume that there could be as many as thousands of children and parents in the same position.
‘There should be full and easy access to all documentation relating to the judgment for any parent or professional to read and assess.’
Dr Michael Fitzpatrick, a London GP whose own son is autistic, said: ‘It is a very important principle that parents should be compensated in cases of this kind.

'But although a causal link has been established in law in this instance, exhaustive scientific research has failed to establish any link between MMR and brain damage.

'This case should not make parents feel any different about the safety of the vaccine.’

The Department of Health said: ‘This decision reflects the opinion of a tribunal on the specific facts of the case and they were clear that it should not be seen as a precedent for any other case.
'The safety of MMR has been endorsed through numerous studies in many countries.’


[h=2]New hope for parents who claim MMR jab blighted their children[/h]By SALLY BECK

For MMR campaigners, the Robert Fletcher ruling is a small but significant milestone in their efforts to prove that the vaccine is not safe for a few children, even though the Government insists it is and that serious reactions are rare.
The triple jab was introduced in 1988, and has been given to millions of children as part of their vaccination schedule, which includes inoculations for 12 diseases.
The vast majority of children suffer no more than redness and swelling around the injection site or a fever that can be easily treated.
But a small number suffer serious reactions. The official figure is one in a million, but campaigners believe that is an underestimate.
Up to 2,000 parents remain convinced their children have suffered significant harm from MMR but have been unable to prove it.

This new decision will give them hope, even though compensation panels do not officially recognise autism claims.
Campaigner Polly Tommey, who edits the magazine The Autism File and believes her son Billy is autistic because of MMR, says: ‘This is fantastic news. Now doctors can’t tell me that the MMR is safe.

'This payout is evidence that it is not safe. It’s interesting that they will look at epilepsy
and not autism, and you have to ask why.
'Is it because the compensation would be billions?’
Parents have tried to get the medical profession and the Government to investigate their claims that MMR damaged their children but have failed so far.
A group of parents brought a case in 1993 which was blocked after their legal aid was withdrawn in 2003.

They claimed for various injuries including autism, Guillain-Barre syndrome, epilepsy, sensorineural deafness, diabetes and arthritis.

Robert’s mother Jackie Fletcher, who set up the vaccine campaign group JABS, is one of a group of parents who continued to fight.

His compensation comes 12 years after the London-based paediatrician Andrew Wakefield claimed a link between MMR and autism.

He was struck off this year after the General Medical Council judged his research to be flawed.
Claiming compensation for any vaccine-related disability is notoriously difficult.

Mrs Fletcher said: ‘Only one in 200 parents who applies to the Vaccine Damage Payment Scheme is successful in receiving compensation.

'Claims for autism are not considered. There are 120 MMR cases waiting to be heard, but none is for autism.’
In America, 4,000 parents are claiming compensation for MMR damage, but again the courts will not officially look at cases where autism is mentioned.

However, cases involving autism do slip through the net.
Bailey Banks, who suffered seizures 16 days after receiving the MMR jab and was diagnosed with pervasive developmental disorder, an autistic condition, was paid compensation.

So was Ben Zeller, who suffered seizures, while Hannah Poling, who is autistic, was paid in secret.

Another 1,820 cases of brain damage caused by vaccines in the U.S., including MMR, have been settled in private.
Mrs Fletcher hopes that the 2,000 families registered with JABS will be awarded legal aid to continue their cases.
She says: ‘We plan to talk to our MP Andy Burnham about the anomalies in the Vaccine Damage Payments Act, the main one being that you can apply for compensation only if a child has died after the age of two.

'We have a number of children on our books who died younger after receiving MMR, but they are not eligible to claim.

'Most vaccines are given at two, three and four months old, so this rule makes no sense.
‘Robert was 13 months old when he had his seizure and, under the rules today, he wouldn’t be eligible to claim.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-concerns-vaccine-surfaced.html#ixzz2dxWtkOtf
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
​

 

[muir]

[h=1]Bill Gates’ Polio Vaccine Program Caused 47,500 Cases of Paralysis Death[/h] Bill GatesPolio Vaccine Program

[h=3]Bill Gates and 47,500 Cases of Paralysis[/h] Joe Samuel (4M),- In India, Monsanto hired Bollywood actors to promote genetically engineered cotton seed to illiterate farmers. Nana Petakar became a brand ambassador for Monsanto. The advertising has been called “aggressive, unscrupulous and false.”
Bill Gates, heavily invested in Monsanto’s GMOs as well as in vaccines, hired the most beloved of Indian actors, Amitabh Bachchan, to promote the oral polio vaccine.
Here is one example of the ads Bachchan created. Here is Bachchan and use of Bollywood itself to promote the vaccines, and here isanother ad, in which Bachchan employes his acting skills.
The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation says:
“Worldwide efforts in the last two decades have reduced the number of polio cases by 99 percent. Until we reach eradication, however, we are working with governments and all partners in the polio effort to ensure no child is at risk of either contracting or transmitting this crippling disease.”
Monsanto used Bollywood actors and succeeded in selling India’s farmers Bt cotton seeds. Profits for Monsanto rose. When yields were less than promised, farmers incurred massive debt, leading many to suicide, in what is considered “the worst-ever recorded wave of suicides of this kind in human history.” To date, the number of suicides has surpassed 250,000.
P. Sainath details this neoliberal terrorism:

“With giant seed companies displacing cheap hybrids and far cheaper and hardier traditional varieties with their own products, a cotton farmer in Monsanto’s net would be paying far more for seed than he or she ever dreamed they would. Local varieties and hybrids were squeezed out with enthusiastic state support. In 1991, you could buy a kilogram of local seed for as little as Rs.7 or Rs.9 in today’s worst affected region of Vidarbha. By 2003, you would pay Rs.350 — ($7) — for a bag with 450 grams of hybrid seed. By 2004, Monsanto’s partners in India were marketing a bag of 450 grams of Bt cotton seed for between Rs.1,650 and Rs.1,800 ($33 to $36).”
​

Long after it was apparent that Monsanto was having a lethal impact on India, Bill Gates who says he wants to help the poor in India, made a huge investment in Monsanto. Does Gates care that he invested in a company that has left poor children of India without their fathers and lost them their land they had lived on?
How is Gates’ other investment – vaccines – faring? Mimicking Monsanto’s PR, Gates used Bollywood actors to strongly promote his vaccine campaign to ‘eradicate polio’ across India. Vaccines ware given to Indian children. Have they brought health?
From “Polio programme: let us declare victory and move on” by Neetu Vashisht and Jacob Puliyel at Medical Ethics http://www.issuesinmedicalethics.org/202co114.html:

“In 2011 there were an extra 47500 new cases of NPAFP [non-polio acute flaccid paralysis]. Clinically indistinguishable from polio paralysis but twice as deadly, the incidence of NPAFP was directly proportional to doses of oral polio received. Through this data was collected within the polio surveillance system, it was not investigated.”
​

The Oral Polio Vaccines were given to Indian children. The CDC dropped the OPV from its vaccine schedule in the US because it was causing polio.

“In 1976, Dr. Jonas Salk, creator of the killed-virus vaccine used in the 1950s, testified that the live-virus vaccine (used almost exclusively in the U.S. from the early 1960s to 2000) was the ‘principal if not sole cause’ of all reported polio cases in the U.S. since 1961 [44]. (The virus remains in the throat for one to two weeks and in the feces for up to two months. Thus, vaccine recipients are at risk, and can potentially spread the disease, as long as fecal excretion of the virus continues [45].) In 1992, the Federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) published an admission that the live-virus vaccine had become the dominant cause of polio in the United States [36]. In fact, according to CDC figures, every case of polio in the U.S. since 1979 was caused by the oral polio vaccine [36]. Authorities claim the vaccine was responsible for about eight cases of polio every year [46]. However, an independent study that analyzed the government’s own vaccine database during a recent period of less than five years uncovered 13,641 reports of adverse events following use of the oral polio vaccine. These reports included 6,364 emergency room visits and 540 deaths (Figure 3) [47,48]. Public outrage at these tragedies became the impetus for removing the oral polio vaccine from immunization schedules [36:568;37;38].”
​

Did Gates not know the OPV had been dropped in the US as he suggested he wanted to bring the same good health to third world countries as Western countries enjoyed? If he did not know, is he pushing vaccines on the world’s children without such basic and truly critical information?
Neetu Vashisht and Jacob Puliyel at St. Stephens Hospital in Delhi address the question oferadication:

“The charade about polio eradication and the great savings it will bring has persisted to date. It is a paradox that while the director general of WHO, Margret Chan, and Bill Gates are trying to muster support for polio eradication (22) it has been known to the scientific community, for over 10 years, that eradication of polio is impossible. This is because in 2002 scientists had synthesised a chemical called poliovirus in a test-tube with the empirical formula C332,652H492,388N98,245O131,196P7, 501S2,340. It has been demonstrated that by positioning the atoms in sequence, a particle can emerge with all the properties required for its proliferation and survival in nature (23, 24).” [Emphasis added.]
​

“Wimmer writes that the test-tube synthesis of poliovirus has wiped out any possibility of eradicating poliovirus in the future. Poliovirus cannot be declared extinct because the sequence of its genome is known and modern biotechnology allows it to be resurrected at any time in vitro. Man can thus never let down his guard against poliovirus. Indeed the 18-year-old global eradication campaign for polioviruses will have to be continued in some format forever. The long promised ‘infinite’ monetary benefits from ceasing to vaccinate against poliovirus will never be achieved (24). The attraction that ‘eradication’ has for policy makers will vanish once this truth is widely known.”

The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is apparently out of touch with what the scientific community has known for 10 years, as its website’s page on polio indicates”

2011 Annual Letter from Bill Gates: Ending Polio
Aid for the poorest has already achieved a lot. For example, because of donors’ generosity, we are on the threshold of ending polio once and for all.
​

And then the Foundation continues about how terrible polio is and how many children it paralyzed and killed.
Polio is a terrible disease that kills many and paralyzes others. Fifty years ago it was widespread around the world. When you talk to people who remember polio in the United States, they’ll tell you about the fear and panic during an outbreak and describe grim hospital wards full of children in iron lungs that maintained their breathing. At its peak in the United States in 1952, polio paralyzed or killed more than 24,000 people.
But in 2011 alone, the Bill and Melinda Gates’ polio vaccine campaign in India caused 47,500 cases of paralysis and death.
From Vashisht and Puliyel:

“It has been reported in the Lancet that the incidence of AFP, especially non-polio AFP has increased exponentially in India after a high potency polio vaccine was introduced (25). Grassly and colleagues suggested, at that time, that the increase in AFP was the result of a deliberate effort to intensify surveillance and reporting in India (26). The National Polio Surveillance Programme maintained that the increased numbers were due to reporting of mild weakness, presumably weakness of little consequence (27).
“However in 2005, a fifth of the cases of non-polio AFP in the Indian state of Uttar Pradesh (UP) were followed up after 60 days. 35.2% were found to have residual paralysis and 8.5% had died (making the total of residual paralysis or death – 43.7%) (28). Sathyamala examined data from the following year and showed that children who were identified with non-polio AFP were at more than twice the risk of dying than those with wild polio infection (27).
“Data from India on polio control over 10 years, available from the National Polio Surveillance Project, has now been compiled and made available online for it to be scrutinised by epidemiologists and statisticians (29). This shows that the non-polio AFP rate increases in proportion to the number of polio vaccines doses received in each area.
“Nationally, the non-polio AFP rate is now 12 times higher than expected. In the states of Uttar Pradesh (UP) and Bihar, which have pulse polio rounds nearly every month, the non-polio AFP rate is 25- and 35-fold higher than the international norms. The relationship of the non-polio AFP rate is curvilinear with a more steep increase beyond six doses of OPV in one year. The non-polio AFP rate during the year best correlates to the cumulative doses received in the previous three years. Association (R2) of the non-polio AFP rate with OPV doses received in 2009 was 41.9%.
​

“Adding up doses received from 2007 increased the association (R2 = 55.6% p < 0.001) (30). Population density did not show any association with the non-polio AFP rate, although others have suggested that it is related to polio AFP (31). The international incidence of non-polio AFP is said to be 1 to 2/100,000 in the populations under 15 (32, 33). The benchmark of good surveillance is the ability to detect one case of AFP per 100,000 children even in the absence of polio (34).
“In 2011, an additional 47,500 children were newly paralysed in the year, over and above the standard 2/100,000 non-polio AFP that is generally accepted as the norm. (32-33). [Emphasis added.]
“It is sad that, even after meticulous surveillance, this large excess in the incidence of paralysis was not investigated as a possible signal, nor was any effort made to try and study the mechanism for this spurt in non-polio AFP. [Emphasis added.]

“These findings point to the need for a critical appraisal to find the factors contributing to the increase in non-polio AFP with increase in OPV doses – perhaps looking at the influence of strain shifts of entero-pathogens induced by the vaccine given practically once every month.
“From India’s perspective the exercise has been extremely costly both in terms of human suffering and in monetary terms. It is tempting to speculate what could have been achieved if the $2.5 billion spent on attempting to eradicate polio were spent on water and sanitation and routine immunization.”
​

The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is apparently out of touch with what is known about the impossibility of eradicating polio, but it is not out of touch with the money involved.

“…. the last 1 percent remains a true danger. Eradication is not guaranteed. It requires campaigns to give polio vaccine to all children under 5 in poor countries, at a cost of almost $1 billion per year. We have to be aggressive about continuing these campaigns until we succeed in eradicating that last 1 percent.
“Therefore, funding is critical to success. Organizations such as Rotary Internationalhttp://www.rotary.org and the governments of India, the United States, the United Kingdom, and Japan are all major contributors to the polio campaign. Our foundation gives about $200 million each year. But the campaign still faces a 2011-12 funding gap of $720 million. If eradication fails because of a lack of generosity on the part of donor countries it would be tragic. We are so close, but we have to finish the last leg of the journey. We need to bring the cases down to zero, maintain careful surveillance to ensure the virus is truly gone, and keep defenses up with polio vaccines until we’ve confirmed success.”
​

The Foundation’s page on polio begins with urging eradication which is known to not be possible, but it ends with wanting money. Like Monsanto’s Bt seeds which were an agricultural and financial disaster for India’s farmers, Gate’s polio vaccine campaign has been the same – a public health and financial disaster for India.
We have seen how polio, that was not a priority for public health in India, was made the target for attempted eradication with a token donation of $ 0.02 billion. The Government of India finally had to fund this hugely expensive programme, which cost the country 100 times more than the value of the initial grant.
Did Monsanto stop their sale of Bt cotton seeds after it became apparent that farmers were being destroyed by overwhelming debt, the poor yields of the seeds and their inability to save seeds?
Has anyone from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation rushed to India to suspend their polio vaccines until crucial questions can be answered about their causingNPAFP [non-polio acute flaccid paralysis] and deaths?
Is the Foundation addressing the lack of vaccine safety? Vaccine safety may be a sensitive subject as Mr. Gates is on record in saying that “people who engage in anti-vaccine efforts [those questioning the safety of vaccines] kill children.”
And yet Mr. Gates’ polio campaign has been documented to have paralyzed 47,5000 children. Puliyel says that “children who were identified with non-polio AFP were at more than twice the risk of dying than those with wild polio infection (27).”
Bill Gates gives no figures or any details to back up his claim that people skeptical of vaccines are killing children, but he referred to parents didn’t give their children the pertussis vaccine and measles vaccines and children dying. However, Mr. Gates may not be aware that teens in Canada vaccinated for measles have come down with measles in greater numbers than the unvaccinated and vaccinated children who are developing pertussis (whooping cough).
From Investigative News Source:
· For pertussis cases in which vaccination histories are known, between 44 and 83 percent were of people who had been immunized, according to data from nine California counties with high infection rates. In San Diego County, more than two thirds of the people in this group were up to date on their immunizations.
· Health officials in Ohio and Texas, two states experiencing whooping cough outbreaks, report that of all cases, 75 and 67.5 percent respectively, reported having received a pertussis vaccination.
· Today, the rate of disease in some California counties is as high as 139 per 100,000, rivaling rates before vaccines were developed.
· Public officials around the world rely heavily on two groups of pertussis experts when setting vaccine policy relating to the disease. Both groups, and many of their members,receive money from the two leading manufacturers of pertussis vaccine.
· Dr. Fritz Mooi, a well-known Dutch scientist who has been studying mutations of the pertussis bacteria for 15 years, said a more virulent strain of bacteria is contributing to outbreaks.
The polio vaccine uses a synthetic virus which has created a more virulent strain. Does the pertussis vaccine also use a synthetic virus?
The WHO, which is working with Mr. Gates through GAVI, classifies the paralysis occurring in India as non-polio acute flaccid paralysis (NPAFP). Perhaps Bill Gates might consider that while Monsanto’s Bollywood PR worked to sell Bt seeds and Gates’ Bollywood PR worked to push his polio vaccines, no Monsanto PR changes the reality of the farmers’ suicides. And ‘relabeling’ paralysis after the vaccines were given does not change the facts. Paralysis is paralysis to the child who can no longer walk. Death is death to the parents who have lost a child.
Mr. Gates intends to vaccinate every child in the world. He has not been slowed in that commitment despite the mass numbers of death and paralysis of children in India. Not pausing from and not even investigating the disaster he has already caused, how many more children will Mr. Gates “help”?
Joe Samuel via The 4th Media first published at Food Freedom News
Related article:
The Vaccine Hoax is Over. Documents from UK reveal 30 Years of Coverup
[h=3]Share:[/h]

• Share

[h=3]About the Author[/h]

nsnbc - In March 2013, nsnbc ínternational was started as a daily, independent, international on-line newspaper to provide high quality news, analysis and opinion from contributors throughout the world. nsnbc has a number of high profile contributors, and has a partnership with a number of other independent media, to guaranty you the best possible coverage. nsnbc is in a permanent mode of expansion to break, what we perceive as corporate and government controlled misinformation of peoples´world wide. Starting from a personal blog in 2011, it developed into a daily newspaper in 2013, and during 2014 - 16 we plan to have independent contributors in, and cover most countries. nsnbc is free to read and basic subscriptions are free of charge, but we appreciate donations. We also offer you to become an nsnbc insider by signing up for special, paid subscriptions, which offer you additional services, and access to an informed community.

 

[muir]

[h=1]http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2013/09/the-polio-vaccine-myth-the-vaccine-stopped-polio-2755048.html
The Polio Vaccine Myth: “The Vaccine Stopped Polio”[/h]
Wednesday, September 4, 2013 4:08

0

​

(Before It's News)


Polio was a feared disease in the mid 1900′s. The disease touched many people around the world and created a great deal of fear when it was talked about. It is not surprising when you look at some of the effects polio placed on some patients. There eventually was a decline in polio cases and it created quite a debate about whether or not it was a natural decline or another vaccine success.
Whenever vaccine doubt begins to surface there is often a common response: “Look at the success of the Polio vaccine when there was Polio outbreaks in the late 40′s and early 50′s.” However, scientific data can quickly show a different story that we must take into consideration when carefully analyzing what actually stopped Polio.
The Pertussis Polio vaccine was implemented in the 1940′s and 50′s and many believed it to be the cause of the decrease in Polio cases, including the reason behind why we do not see Polio cases today. Is this the real reason why Polio has dissapeared?
First let’s understand a bit about Polio and how “dangerous” it really is. the following is stated in a paper written by Dr. Sheri Tenpenny, one of the leading researchers of vaccine safety and effectiveness.

“Polioviruses are transient inhabitants of the gastrointestinal tract. Up to 95% of all polio infections are completely asymptomatic. Approximately 5% of polio infections consist of a minor, nonspecific illness consisting of an upper respiratory tract infection (sore throat and fever) and gastrointestinal disturbances (nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, and diarrhea). This influenza-like illness, clinically indistinguishable from the myriad of other viral illnesses, is characterized by complete recovery in less than a week with resultant life time immunity. Less than 1% of all polio infections result in paralysis. Most importantly, the vast majority of individuals who contract paralytic poliomyelitis recover with complete—or near complete—return of muscle function. Any weakness that is still present 12 months after onset of paralysis is usually considered permanent.“
​

Off the top it first appears as though we may have been misled about how dangerous Polio really is. When Polio outbreaks were happening in the late 50′s and early 60′s, many of the adverse effects were due to the lack of clean conditions. The truth is over 90% of the cases where people contracted Polio, the symptoms experienced were very minute. Most symptoms included a slight fever, headache, sore throat, and vomiting. The recovery time was 24 – 72 hrs. Once recovered, the person now has a life time immunity to Polio. 5% of people who contracted Polio had less symptoms and recovery time was much less. They would see some sore throat and possibly a fever. Rare cases saw diarrhea. Then we get to 3% of people who had a bit more extreme cases where they may have seen some limb weakness and partial paralysis that would be experienced for 2 – 10 days. This only happened when areas of the brain that controlled limbs were irritated by a form of viral meningitis. All cases saw a complete recovery and life long immunity. Now we get to the worst cases of them all. Less than 2% of cases saw some form of more serious paralysis. Of that 2% though 50% saw complete recovery over time from the paralysis.
As you really begin to look at the numbers, the amount of very serious cases is actually a very very small number. Yet when we hear the word Polio today, we tend to think of an extremely dangerous illness that causes certain paralysis. This is very much similar to AIDS in that fear drives us to act in and think in ways that is worse than the actuality of the disease itself. It also seems to be the case that the fear and emotion around the disease is so strong that we have a hard time truly looking at it logically.
Let’s move onto how Polio declined and how it relates to the vaccine. Why not start with a statement of fact that will set the tone for what will be looked at below.

In 1977, Dr Jonas Salk, who developed the first polio vaccine, testified along with other scientists that mass inoculation against polio was the cause of most polio cases throughout the USA since 1961. (Science 4/4/77 “Abstracts” )
​

The above statement states the truth of the vaccine in a nutshell. The Polio vaccine only increased the amount of cases of Polio when it was introduced and it had no part in actually creating a decline in the disease. The decline was happening naturally and the vaccine was introduced on a down turn of Polio cases. While the introduction of the vaccine created a spike in cases, overall the disease continued to decline. Especially in countries that did not introduce the vaccine. This is strong evidence showing that the Polio vaccine is not responsible for the decline and should negate the belief and statement that the Polio vaccine demonstrates vaccine success. Below, see research that reflects what it stated above.

Six New England states reported increases in polio one year after the Salk vaccine was introduced, ranging from more than doubling in Vermont to Massachusetts’ astounding increase of 642%; other states reported increases as well. The incidence in Wisconsin increased by a factor of five. Idaho and Utah actually halted vaccination due to the increased incidence and death rate. In 1959, 77.5% of Massachusetts’ paralytic cases had received 3 doses of IPV (injected polio vaccine). During 1962 U.S. Congressional hearings, Dr. Bernard Greenberg, head of the Dept. of Biostatistics for the University of North Carolina School of Public Health, testified that not only did the cases of polio increase substantially after mandatory vaccinations—a 50% increase from 1957 to 1958, and an 80% increase from 1958 to 1959—but that the statistics were deliberately manipulated by the Public Health Service to give the opposite impression.(52) It is important to understand that the polio vaccine was not universally accepted, at least initially. Despite this, polio declined both in European countries that refused mass vaccination as well as in those that employed it.
​

As the natural decrease in Polio cases began in the early 50′s, we can clearly see that in countries where the Polio vaccine was introduced cases actually increased. In areas where Polio was non existent, Polio began to show up when the vaccine was introduced to the area. In countries that did not implement the vaccine, Polio became non existent. Eventually the natural decline of Polio meant that even though we still use the vaccine, most vaccinated will not contract the virus because there is an immunity to it. It is important to note though that cases after 1961, as shown above, are due to the vaccine itself.
One final piece of information that is important to note is that the Polio vaccine used had traces of the SV 40 virus which is directly linked to the creation of cancer within the body. Speculatively, one of the main purposes behind vaccines is to inject the population with ‘codes’ that open the body up to the ability to contract diseases much more easily. The science behind vaccinations has long been proven to be completely ineffective and the continued use of vaccines only shows the real purpose behind them.
One step we can all take to not subject anyone to vaccines is by simply not getting them anymore and education others. For parents of newborn children, be sure to read the following article to find out how to legally get out of “mandatory” vaccinations. Not a single vaccine is necessary in any human body.
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2012/02/08/choice-vaccinations/
Sources:
The MERCK Manual
Dr. Sheri Tenpenny (various sources)
http://www.naturalnews.com/027203_vaccination_health_vaccines.html#ixzz1mlHAErTL
http://www.whale.to/v/phillips.html#VACCINATION%20MYTH%20#6
Written by, Joe Martino

 

[Gul Dukat]

That would be quite a challenge to go through the whole list! Would it be ok for me just to explain where i agree with the cabal and where i disagree with the cabal?

No, that wouldn't answer my questions AT ALL.

The key difference is that i believe people should have a choice. If change occurs it shoudl come from informed conscious choice. The cabal want to do everything by stealth

I also believe that society had to change. For example as you pointed out minorities and women were not on an equal footing with white men. That needed to change and that is a work in progress

But what the cabal want is not equality. They want the mass of society to be controlled by them. So the masses would be equal in their status as slaves

I would roll the equality thing out ALL THE WAY.

So their system is about control coming down from above....from an elite. What i would like to see is everyone having an equal say and then that democratic consensus then being exercised by everyone. This would be power being exercised from the bottom of society up

For example with the war in syria situation. In the US polls have shown that over half of US americans are against military intervention in Syria. But because we live in a system where the elite control it from the top down they will ignore the will of the people and just attack Syria anyway

If we lived in a power from the bottom up system the people would vote on the issue; then they would have delegates which they would choose to represent their community who would then take that mandate forward to a more regional level. Under the current system if a politician tells people befoe they are elected that they are going to do something, a lot of the time, when they are elected into office they then don't do what they said they are going to do. Having been hoodwinked by their deception the people then need to wait years for the next election cycle before they can get rid of the lying candidate

In a power from the bottom up system the delegates office would be instantly revocable if they did not carry out the mandate of their community. This method of organising society is called 'anarchism'

Most people when they hear that word get images in their head of burning cars, looting, the joker villain from batman and just general mayhem because they have been conditioned everytime they watch the corporate news or hollywood films to think that way as whenever there is a chaotic situation it is referred to as 'anarchy' but really that is an abuse of language designed to hide from people what the true meaning of anarchy is

Here let me give you an example of how they use NLP to attach negative associations to the word 'anarchy' when anarchy is actually a noble idea where people are all given a say in the running of their community. This clip is from one of the batman films....this is subtle brainwashing of the masses in action. That film is created to unconsciously and consciously make people think that if people challenge wallstreet and the current power structure of society that terrible things will happen:

[video=youtube;5iwf20t9J1k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iwf20t9J1k[/video]

Thats what the power elite want you to think an anarchist looks like: crazy hair, painted face and psychologically a homicidal maniac

Lets look for a moment at what a real anarchist looks and sounds like by listening for a minute to the well known professor Chomsky:

[video=youtube;2G6kf7XM9Nk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G6kf7XM9Nk[/video]

Is he a crazy maniac?

So again the cabal wants to see change and so do i but i don't want to see things change into an even more centrally controlled, even more dominating system and that is what we are already seeing emerge with the creation of the police state and the growing government surveillance and endless imperialistic wars etc

So to put it in its simplest terms the difference is that the cabal would like to see power concentrated more and more in their hands and i would like to see power decentralised more and more into the hands of the many so that everyone has a say and everyone has a stake in their community



Which anti-israel group?

I have already discussed however the way these guys fund both ends against the middle. they will fund extremists one both sides for example they will fund socialists and they will also fund right wingers

For example they are funding islamic extremism for example al quaeda in syria at the moment

What they want is chaos because as everyone else is in a confused state of chaos they are the only ones who know which way to go. You know the saying ''in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king''?

Imagine a crowd of people are in a dark room and no one knows where the exit is. if one person has night vision goggles they would be the first person to the exit. If the lights went out suddenly a strong suspect for who turned the lights out would also reasonably be the person with the night vision goggles

These guys create chaos and then they create new order from the chaos. Its like shaking a kaleidoscope and then a new pattern forms. So for them the middle east is a giant kaleidoscope and they are shaking it at the moment to see of they can get a new pattern to form that they like

Many of the families that make up the central bankers originated from germany. For example the rothschilds were 'court jews' which means they were part of the royal court. They were bankers to the royalty and aristocracy. But anyway...they came from germany and in germany was a philospoher called Hegel. The sons of the bankers went to the big universities in germany for example in berlin. hegel lectured at these universities and the bankers learned hegel's principle of: ''thesis, antithesis and synthesis''.

This involves taking two opposites which create a tension and from the tension a synthesis emerges. So lets say you and i are both tied to a rope. If i pull the rope and you do nothing you will just get pulled towards me. But if you pull back on the rope then we might both move off the spots we are standing on. I would be the thesis, you would be the antithesis and where we ended up would be the synthesis (a new situation that had emerged from the chaos of you and me pulling on the rope)

So you see if you want a situation to emerge. You just need to create a polarity; then you need to amke sure that you feed both sides of that polarity just enough that the synthesis ends up where you want it

An example of this would be how the central bankers supplied saddam husseins iraq with weapons and then encouraged it to attack Iran. The situation that the bankers wanted to synthesis was to weaken Iran but at the same time they did not want a strong and triumphant iraq that could stand up for itself in the future which could for example demand high prices for its oil. What they wanted was for both iran and iraq to be weakened and then in such a poor state that they would desperately need money and would sell their oil at any price to the cabal in order to feed their people

So thats what the cabal did...they supplied support to both sides but never enough to allow a clear winner to emerge...they just let both countries fight it out until they were ruined like two boxers fighting until they both collapse in a heap

In the same vein as hegels theory is what david ike has called the method of ''problem, reaction, solution''

This method is where the cabal want to achieve something...a synthesis. lets say they want to attack a country so that they can steal its oil. maybe they do this because the leader of that country is refusing to sell his oil cheaply. So they create a problem. Lets say they blow up a train in one of their own countries. This then causes a reaction in the public.

The public are shocked and terrified and angry. They are all asking each other:
''who did this to us?''
''why would anyone do this to us?''
''We need to do something about this! We need to find out who did this to us and we need to get them back!''

The cabal then use the mainstream media that they own to start talking on the Tv and airwaves about the explosion. They tell the people through their news channels that the people whose oil they want to go in and steal are behind the bombings. ''Its them!'' they say. The public then have someone to blame....they now have a hate figure

So then comes the final part of the plan. The cabal then offer their solution to the public which they had planned all along. They get the politicans whose careers they had bankrolled to go on the TV news channels they control and they get them to say to the people: ''We are a peaceful people and a peace loving country. But these people have attacked us. We simply cannot stand by and let them get away with this. So it is with great reluctance that we are going to go to war agaisnt these evil men who have done this to us. The military is preparing as we speak''

And the public relax again. They accept this solution offered by the cabal because it seems fair and just that the people they think have attacked them should be brought to justice

That's basically how it works

Incidentally if you ever need to negotiate in order to get something...this method works extremely well



The rich are not safe from the cabal. The middle classes for example are currently having their savings wiped out becuase the cabal are keeping interest rates artificially low through printing lots of money. this increases the amount of money in circulation which drives down the value of anyones money in the bank

The rich won't be spared by the cabal. The cabal will come for them once they have destroyed the middle class. Only the high priests will be allowed to control things. Rich people could be a threat to that order so they will have to go. i the meantime though the cabal will use the rich to achieve what they want to achieve...but when the time is right they will sell them out



Yeah there is no problem with banking reforms to happen now because the cabal have already pulled off the heist....they already got the government to bail out the banks and get the public in everlasting debt servitude

Changing the banking system now would be like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted



Neoliberalism is just a tool to achieve their end game. the wealth transfer is well under way

The restructuring will create manufacturing where they want it

The plan is outlined in UN ''Agenda 21''

The global population numbers will be reduced. People will be moved out of the countryside and into urban zones which will be connected by high speed railways. The remaining land will be carved up into zones for different usages for example agriculture, forestry, mining or whatever

Everyone will have a smart meter in their home monitoring their energy usage. Everyone will have a microchip under their skin that their electronic money will be stored on. Their movements will be strictly regulated and restricted and their where abouts known to the central authorities at all times

Peace will be kept by a global police force and a global army which both answer to the cabal

But to acheive this things will need to be reshuffled around. people will need to be moved and manufacturing will need to be moved as well

Africa has already been earmarked to be agricultural land. The problem with that is of course that it is currently populated with africans. this means that they must ofm course get rid of the africans. They are doing this through a number of means. One method has been to use their agent Bill Gates to launch a vaccination drive to inject as many people as possbile with shots that will destroy the immune systems of people...this will over tim achieve a massive kill off of the population

Bill Gate's father was a member of the eugencist group ''Planned parenthood''. The main foundtion of planned parenthood was the encouragement of black women to have abortions.

The cabal met in the villa of the rockefeller family outside Rome and set up a think tank called ''the Club of Rome''. this group then published a paper in 1972 called ''the Limits to growth''. this paper outlines various apocalyptic scenarios that they say will occur if the worlds population is not reduced. you should be able to find this paper online if you are interested in it. Just remember it is designed to be frightening and to be a jutification for their actions



I am not syaing anyone who has money is evil. i am talking about the top 1% of the top 1%

I hope i have managed with what i've said above shown at least to some extent how the situation is not always how it at first appears and that what might look confusingly random to you actually masks a plan that these guys are carrying out over generations.

There is method to their madness



I am making no money out of my posts. Although it would be rather nice to be paid to do this it would corrupt it at the same time

WTF IS ALL OF THIS BULLSHIT???!!!

 

[muir]

No, that wouldn't answer my questions AT ALL.



WTF IS ALL OF THIS BULLSHIT???!!!

Keep reading and you'll learn something

 

[muir]

Video of a talk by Bill gates where he says not only do we need to reduce the global population......and this is all coming from his own lips.....but also that VACCINES can be used to help do that

Now i was always told that vaccines were supposed to save lives....so if they are doing that then they would BOOST population numbers, so why is Bill saying that vaccinations can be used to reduce population numbers?

Well you only have to look at the harm those vaccines are causing to understand that the vaccines are not there to save lives they are there to damage the immune systems of a generation of people

Bill gates and his foundation are of course members of the council on foreign relations which David rockefeller was the chairman of. Rockefeller helped form the club of rome which wrote that paper i mentioned above called ''the limits of growth'' which said we needed drastic population reduction

...only a delusional person can't piece these pieces together once they are laid out in front of them

[video=youtube;F3WXcRfsrTQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3WXcRfsrTQ#t=131[/video]

 

[muir]

Testemonies about vaccines from scientists, doctors and parents:

[video=youtube;zBPcKQzDcm0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBPcKQzDcm0[/video]

 

[Gul Dukat]

Keep reading and you'll learn something

You don`t even read your own copypasted blocks of text, muir... this is what I have learned.

I think you probably just google a subject or a name or something, spend about 10 seconds scanning the search results, click the first scary-sounding title that you can find, and then copypaste it. You don`t care about whether you`re spouting bullshit or not. You don`t care if you`re regurgitating propaganda from some extreme right wing KKK-affiliated site or NaturalNews or Stalinwasahero.com or WorldofSocialism.org. All that matters is that it sounds scary and makes people feel panicked. This is also the key function of propaganda... to make people feel and react according to their outrage, instead of think and act according to their reason.

You don`t read what you`re posting, and you don`t expect other people to read it either. You have gotten away with this because it really doesn`t matter what you`re posting-- you know that if you post enough of it, some people will feel intimidated, stop thinking for themselves and conclude that you`re right (or at least that you know more about it than they do).

That is your schtick.
That is also my point.

 

[muir]

You don`t even read your own copypasted blocks of text, muir... this is what I have learned.

Yes i do otherwise i wouldn't know they are relevant

I think you probably just google a subject or a name or something, spend about 10 seconds scanning the search results, click the first scary-sounding title that you can find, and then copypaste it.

If you are saying something that is outside the mainstream news you will always get someone saying ''that's BS, prove it'' so then you have to go to the search engine and find an article that covers it to show the person that it isn't something that you just made up

You don`t care about whether you`re spouting bullshit or not.

I'm not spouting bullshit

And once again you are attacking me and not trying to disprove what i'm saying. Go to the evidence look at that. Do your own research

You don`t care if you`re regurgitating propaganda from some extreme right wing KKK-affiliated site or NaturalNews or Stalinwasahero.com or WorldofSocialism.org. All that matters is that it sounds scary and makes people feel panicked.

What happens in these discussions for example this one that started off about the current topic of syria is that when you start digging into things you find that the situation is not as the mainstream news tries to tell us it is

Now yes that is unsettling and yes that can even be frightening....there is a lot of crazy stuff happening

For exmaple the syria situation is seeing a kind of stand of between nuclear powers and personally i find that very concerning which is why i am arguing that war IS NOT A GOOD IDEA

But if we want to be adults and take responsiblity for our world and discuss the things happening in it then we have to look at the evidence we can find

No one is making you take part in this discussion. if you are uncomfrotable with it then leave the discussion. Don't start having a little tantrum because you don't like what is being revealed

This is also the key function of propaganda... to make people feel and react according to their outrage, instead of think and act according to their reason.

This is why people need to look beyond the mainstream media and get some other perspectives

You don`t read what you`re posting, and you don`t expect other people to read it either.

That is an offensive lie. I have absorbed more information from more sources than you would believe

You have gotten away with this because it really doesn`t matter what you`re posting-- you know that if you post enough of it, some people will feel intimidated, stop thinking for themselves and conclude that you`re right (or at least that you know more about it than they do).

That is your schtick.
That is also my point.

You know why people start resorting to what you are doing ie name calling and baseless accusations? They do it because they have lost the debate. they do it because they cannot prove their point.

You cannot prove your point so you are having a little tantrum

 

[sassafras]

Look, guys, I know that this discussion is really important to you and frankly, I'm interested in the subject matter and hearing everyone's view points, but it's really difficult to keep up with not only the volume of posts, but also the content. This isn't just leisure reading material, as I'm sure you very well know. A lot of this material is not only controversial, but it's also a bit over the heads of people who don't have their finger on the pulse of current events. 90% of what you guys are positing here needs to be carefully digested and considered critically. Heck, I'm still processing muir's reply to my questions five thread pages ago.

Now, let me be clear: I'm not suggesting anyone shut up and sit down because I think everyone has a right to be heard and a lot of this is stuff that needs to be either talked about and clarified (particularly some of the more controversial and frankly, socially sensitive subjects). However, I don't think information overload is the answer. If anything, it's rather discouraging to any kind of learning or discussion. It doesn't help that the last few days the activity stream has been nothing but the truther/controversial subject show.

Muir, I get what you're trying to do here, but maybe you can dose your posts a little because lately you've been kind of taking over the forum and most the stuff you post about isn't at all mbti-related. I know it's not in the forum rules or anything, but I think it would show some consideration for your fellow forum members if you maybe stepped back a bit. It would be beneficial too, because the people who are interested in what you're saying can get a chance to catch up.

Besides, the last few pages of this thread have been nothing but bickering anyway. It'll give everyone a chance to cool off and think. I think that's reasonable, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Nixie]

Huh and here I thought that is what the mods were for--letting members know when they are crossing a line of acceptable behavior. We've been subjected to endless stuff piled upon endless stuff by muir, I say let @Stu and everyone else keep the ball rolling (quote it all!) since that seems to be what is allowed in these news and politics threads instead of discussion.

 

[muir]

I've had some requests from some people to post about some solutions to all this...things people can do about it

I have some stuff i'd like to say about that, but you may have noticed that i have been bombarded with posts from several people here who i have been trying to respond to

I have just been trying tp hold my ground in my own thread

I left the syria thread despite the fact i still had a lot i wanted to say. i haven't been posting anywhere but here. I haven't been affecting any other part of the forum, i have simply been defending myself from the accusations and insults that a few disgruntled people have been throwing at me

Seriously go back and have a look at some of what has been said. i've ben called crazy, an alien, dishonest etc

So yeah i have stood up for myself and held my ground.....and i have only done that here in this thread

I have repeatedly said to certain people ''stop attacking me and talk about the issues'' but they don't like what i am saying in this thread that i have started so they are attacking me to get me to shut up

BUT NO ONE HAS MADE THEM ENTER THIS THREAD...NO ONE

Now if the waves of abuse have stopped from one particular poster then i would like to respond to the request of some of the forumites and start posting some more stuff about solutions because i think a lot of us are now at a stage where we can pretty much see what is going on in the world now....we have diagnosed the problem...so i agree with the people who have spoken to me that perhaps the conversation is ready to move towards more positive things

But i can only do that once i am not having to defend myself from aggressive posters who post their abusive opinions with nothing to back it up

 

[muir]

The whole point about this thread was about how some people always drag the discussion down into the gutter whenever the discussion starts moving towards the real issues and sure enough they have done it again

Everytime they shout people down when they get down to the real issues

 

[sassafras]

The whole point about this thread was about how some people always drag the discussion down into the gutter whenever the discussion starts moving towards the real issues and sure enough they have done it again

Everytime they shout people down when they get down to the real issues

The positive thing about a text-based medium like a forum is that information stays up indefinitely and people can catch up on what they've missed. In your eyes, whatever the real issues are, they will stay up there but the difference is, people will get a chance to read them and think about them instead of letting them get buried under walls of text. I don't know about anyone else, but because of the subject matter, I can only process things in little bites. And by the time I do, you guys are six pages ahead. It's endless. I know your intentions here are to reach as many people as possible, muir, but the controversial material and your manner of delivery is discouraging. All your efforts are just going to waste anyway because every time anyone stumbles into this thread, their eyes glaze over because there is just so much data. If anything, the 'real issues' you're so concerned with addressing are going to fall on deaf ears because chances are most people, in their overwhelm, won't read them anyway.

Just something to think about.

 

[muir]

The positive thing about a text-based medium like a forum is that information stays up indefinitely and people can catch up on what they've missed. In your eyes, whatever the real issues are, they will stay up there but the difference is, people will get a chance to read them and think about them instead of letting them get buried under walls of text. I don't know about anyone else, but because of the subject matter, I can only process things in little bites. And by the time I do, you guys are six pages ahead. It's endless. I know your intentions here are to reach as many people as possible, muir, but your manner of delivery is discouraging and all your efforts are just going to waste anyway because every time anyone stumbles into this thread, their eyes glaze over because there is just so much data.

Just something to think about.

You need to look at what i have been doing in the context of the discussion

For example i might have someone say to me that what i have just posted is not true and that there is no proof

I then have to go and find some proof and hold it upto them and say ''look here this is why i have said that''

The problem with proof is it doesn't usually come in neat little passages of a few lines

The thread has been moving along at afast and furious pace but like i say i have just been trying to respond to people who are sepaking to me

 

[muir]

@Nixie @Vicarious @Deathjam

Nixie has been speaking about me in her blog straight after she posted here in this thread so i responded

I said if she wasn't happy for me to post in her blog for her to let me know and id remove it

She sent me a reputation point saying that she is not happy for me to post in her blog but that i can leave my posts there if i want

I left the posts there

She has just sent me another rep point saying she says she does not want me posting in her blog and is going to report me

So i have sent her a rep point saying my second post was made before she rep'd me saying she didn't want me posting in her blog

I have repd her back asking her if she wants me to remove the posts

I am just saying this so its all out there in the open

Vicarious...nixie hasn't responded so i don't know what to do. can you please help resolve this situation?

If nixie wants me to remove my posts i will, but she has not clarified what she wants

 

[sassafras]

You need to look at what i have been doing in the context of the discussion

That's exactly my point, though, muir. I can't look at the context of the discussion because I can't keep up with the discussion. Being able to keep up with your posting volume and make meaningful sense of your posts would be a full time job. You can't ask people to dedicate their days to just listening to what you have to say.

Please keep in mind that I'm not asking you to stop posting, I'm asking you to maybe condense what you're trying to say... and if you can't do that, slow it down. Given how long and dense your posts are, consider dosing your info with just a post or two a day. People will actually have a chance to read what you're saying and think about it. Isn't that what you're trying to do here? Reach people? Get them to consider what you're saying? Get them discuss the 'real issues'? We can't do that if we're flooded with data.

 

[muir]

That's exactly my point, though, muir. I can't look at the context of the discussion because I can't keep up with the discussion. Being able to keep up with your posting volume and make meaningful sense of your posts would be a full time job. You can't ask people to dedicate their days to just listening to what you have to say.

Please keep in mind that I'm not asking you to stop posting, I'm asking you to maybe condense what you're trying to say... and if you can't do that, slow it down. Given how long and dense your posts are, consider dosing your info with just a post or two a day. People will actually have a chance to read what you're saying and think about it. Isn't that what you're trying to do here? Reach people? Get them to consider what you're saying? Get them discuss the 'real issues'? We can't do that if we're flooded with data.

I am not asking people to give up their days

I don't understand why you are singling me out when other people have posted large volumes of text and videos in here as well and have also bogged the thread down with long posts

You need to see that it is a two way thing...it is as much that i am responding to people rather than that i am just posting stuff off my own initiative

 

[muir]

What will happen here TDHT if i am silenced in this thread or if i am infracted because those that are trying to shut me up have reported me to the staff is that they will enter this thread when i am absent and they will fill it with a load of pro government pro cabal arguments

That is what i have been pushing back against here....can you see that?

 

[Nixie]

@Nixie

Has been speaking about me in her blog after she posted here in this thread so i responded

I said if she wasn't happy for me to post in her blog for her to let me know and id remove it

She sent me a reputation point saying that she is not happy for me to post in her blog but that i can leave my posts there if i want

I left the posts there

She has just sent me another rep point saying she says she does not want me posting in her blog and is going to report me

So i have sent her a rep point saying my second post was made before she rep'd me saying she didn't want me posting in her blog

I have repd her back asking her if she wants me to remove the posts

I am just saying this so its all out there in the open

To be clear, I told you in the rep to the first post: You are not welcome to post in my blog but that you could leave your "defence" statement if you so choose.

You then, posted a second message in which I stated I had already told you that you were not welcome to post in my blog and I was reporting it.

I will consider it an error in communication. My intent was to let you know that you were not welcome to post in my blog and that I was willing to allow only your first post to stand if you wished and would not ask you to remove it.

Your second post is not welcome and I have reported it and asked for it to be removed.

I deliberately did my responses via rep because 1. I didn't consider it a matter for the whole forum and wished to respect the dialogue between the two of us and 2. I have disabled my PMs