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Are we "owed" a partner?
- Thread starter Nixie
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I mean, I think if someone needs a partner, they deserve one. I don't see how that doesn't follow. However, what "deserve" DOES NOT mean is... that we take to selling men and women as slaves to satiate others' needs. Because those men and women don't DESERVE that treatment either.
It's no different from saying that someone who is on the street hungry deserves food, assuming the person is decent, but that the solution isn't to raid innocent people's homes and steal food from them.
I am skeptical/generally in the negative that everyone needs a partner? I don't have one/don't seem to need one. I have my books, thoughts, and platonic friends.
It's no different from saying that someone who is on the street hungry deserves food, assuming the person is decent, but that the solution isn't to raid innocent people's homes and steal food from them.
I am skeptical/generally in the negative that everyone needs a partner? I don't have one/don't seem to need one. I have my books, thoughts, and platonic friends.
Icedream
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I disagree. I feel like you need to prove that you "deserve" to be in a relationship. Otherwise, it breeds nothing but entitlement. Need, however. You don't need to prove anything. Everyone needs something, even if they don't deserve it.
If a homeless person is a heavy drinker and doesn't take care of themselves anyway, do they really deserve a meal?
If a homeless person is a heavy drinker and doesn't take care of themselves anyway, do they really deserve a meal?
Nixie
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I think it is easy to dismiss people who express such an extreme sense of victim mentality and who push "blame" onto to others.
But the underlying principle of looks and attractiveness versus sexual fulfillment seems very deeply ingrained into our society. The idea we can create positive potential sexual relationships via text and internet seems a part of the problem coupled with the idea such conquests are "easy" . Relationships of any kind are difficult to create and maintain in real life, they take effort.
However we seem to have an entire group who think some woman should have dropped her panties and spread her legs BECAUSE that is what they desire. That the woman's right to choose is wrong in the greater expectation of men to be sexually fulfilled. Are we really still at such a place?
But the underlying principle of looks and attractiveness versus sexual fulfillment seems very deeply ingrained into our society. The idea we can create positive potential sexual relationships via text and internet seems a part of the problem coupled with the idea such conquests are "easy" . Relationships of any kind are difficult to create and maintain in real life, they take effort.
However we seem to have an entire group who think some woman should have dropped her panties and spread her legs BECAUSE that is what they desire. That the woman's right to choose is wrong in the greater expectation of men to be sexually fulfilled. Are we really still at such a place?
Icedream said:
You don't disagree yet. It's not clear that you do, at least. I acknowledge that people had better be good folks and all that -- there are plenty of good people who don't get their needs met by this world since they aren't fortunate.
Icedream said:
Here's my definition of good person -- you have to be reasonable and moral/kind. If someone meets BOTH those qualities, I blame the world, not them. If someone doesn't meet one of those, I blame the person/say they don't deserve a relationship or really anything else.
In other words, if the facts were all placed before the person, the world wasn't tricky/unfairly devious, then this person would probably do the right thing. Good people can make the wrong decision in an imperfect world, because I guess the facts aren't always placed fairly before them.
I certainly know tons of people who don't meet my definition of 'good person,' and I've got high standards, but I also don't hesitate to blame the world in a lot of cases, as I sincerely think it's a very flawed one.
I mean, the very concept of "deserves" presupposes a notion of fairness. Without being moral, reasonable etc, you aren't fair yourself, and it is strange for someone who rejects the concept of fairness to believe in fair treatment to themselves. They'd be in self-contradiction if they argued that way.
Icedream said:
Well just that if someone says "I deserve to have my needs met," I think the someone is already appealing to a concept of fairness.
Of course, someone could not believe there is such a thing as rationality or justice or whatever and simply operate on a chaos-based view. Like a Joker figure from Nolan's Batman, or whatever. But I hardly think such a person would/could argue (without self-contradiction) for deserving anything.
jkxx
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@Icedream -
that's certainly one way to tackle it and a rather good one.
My personal answer is no, men are not 'owed' a relationship anymore than they are owed anything else and for reasons which have been listed in the preceding pages.
But the one which caught my attention was Lady Jolanda's post with
because I feel it gets pretty close to the truth of the question (or answer.) What if it's not a particular woman (a living human being) these men are after owning but the archetype of Woman (following Jung here) which maybe for them looks as some kind of supernatural force out to swallow and destroy them (because yes, nature will claim us all after a while and there are countless other examples of this) so they project this onto all women who might enter their lives and pose the threat.
The point is it's all done out of fear of something bigger than themselves they can't control hence this super hostile attitude to ensure they gain control right away and assert their 'male' side - that of the creator as they are so fixated on creating new life. And the fear itself suggests this is all coming back to the basic belief that the feminine will somehow engulf and overpower them. Of course there may have been unfortunate events in their life to promote this but the core belief was likely there from early on even before they realized it.
Of course it poses a problem - this victim mentality can suck in folks from other walks of life who really have no allegiance to this other than believing they are going through a similar sort of grievance. So yes, things get messy pretty quick here.
Will agree with the unhelpful beliefs and expectations forced upon people by social norms - anyone who doesn't like following this is going to find themselves in a guilt-laden black hole for at least a while.
(A very bright NT friend of mine called them by a different name many years ago but the term escapes me. But it seemed odd at the time hence my interest in this.)
Anyway just my 2c
that's certainly one way to tackle it and a rather good one.
My personal answer is no, men are not 'owed' a relationship anymore than they are owed anything else and for reasons which have been listed in the preceding pages.
But the one which caught my attention was Lady Jolanda's post with
(And also, that wouldn't be much of a partnership at all, would it? (Implied in 'partnership' is equality, before someone barks at me.) If one person is 'owed' a partner, then the other person is .. the 'owee'))
because I feel it gets pretty close to the truth of the question (or answer.) What if it's not a particular woman (a living human being) these men are after owning but the archetype of Woman (following Jung here) which maybe for them looks as some kind of supernatural force out to swallow and destroy them (because yes, nature will claim us all after a while and there are countless other examples of this) so they project this onto all women who might enter their lives and pose the threat.
The point is it's all done out of fear of something bigger than themselves they can't control hence this super hostile attitude to ensure they gain control right away and assert their 'male' side - that of the creator as they are so fixated on creating new life. And the fear itself suggests this is all coming back to the basic belief that the feminine will somehow engulf and overpower them. Of course there may have been unfortunate events in their life to promote this but the core belief was likely there from early on even before they realized it.
Of course it poses a problem - this victim mentality can suck in folks from other walks of life who really have no allegiance to this other than believing they are going through a similar sort of grievance. So yes, things get messy pretty quick here.
Will agree with the unhelpful beliefs and expectations forced upon people by social norms - anyone who doesn't like following this is going to find themselves in a guilt-laden black hole for at least a while.
(A very bright NT friend of mine called them by a different name many years ago but the term escapes me. But it seemed odd at the time hence my interest in this.)
Anyway just my 2c
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indeed
Icedream
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Well said. You'll be a wonderful addition to the forum.
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Thats pretty damn deep for you ruji. I am guessing that some newly formed AI from somewhere briefly took over your account. Am I right?
Probably the main point I wanted to make for the thread, just to recapitulate is this:
I think a lot of the things that are required for someone to get his/her needs (let's throw in reasonable strongly felt wants) met are way outside of the bounds of what someone needs to do to deserve. Ie I view the world as far from fair, and I am not interested in "toughen up and just accept it" answers, because that's committing the classic Humean fallacy of confusing what is with what ought to be. As long as we're asking about deserving, we're asking about oughts. Perhaps it would help someone get through this life to toughen up, but that doesn't mean that's a virtue, as first of all, the circumstances that are requiring them to aren't ones that should have existed in many cases.
The only real requirement to deserve is you update your views on evidence/are fair/rational, and that you're moral/kind. Anything else, like the skills that help get your needs met -- I don't call requirements for deserving of their own right at all.
I mean, if one is reasonable/updates on evidence, and those skills are attainable, one will attain them. It's just not reasonable to expect the playing field to be anywhere close to level, however.....talent is pretty randomly distributed. And if someone feels resentment at that, I think it's fair to feel that resentment.
I think a lot of the things that are required for someone to get his/her needs (let's throw in reasonable strongly felt wants) met are way outside of the bounds of what someone needs to do to deserve. Ie I view the world as far from fair, and I am not interested in "toughen up and just accept it" answers, because that's committing the classic Humean fallacy of confusing what is with what ought to be. As long as we're asking about deserving, we're asking about oughts. Perhaps it would help someone get through this life to toughen up, but that doesn't mean that's a virtue, as first of all, the circumstances that are requiring them to aren't ones that should have existed in many cases.
The only real requirement to deserve is you update your views on evidence/are fair/rational, and that you're moral/kind. Anything else, like the skills that help get your needs met -- I don't call requirements for deserving of their own right at all.
I mean, if one is reasonable/updates on evidence, and those skills are attainable, one will attain them. It's just not reasonable to expect the playing field to be anywhere close to level, however.....talent is pretty randomly distributed. And if someone feels resentment at that, I think it's fair to feel that resentment.
Gaze
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Fairness sounds like the real issue. This is not about the sexism of a few who use dissatisfaction with relationships to justify wanting things they are offered. The incent bashing doesn't solve the problem of why there are inequities in dating or relationships. Nothing is unrealistic or unsound about feeling you are owed a relationship. It's a principle our entire society is built on. How many people go through life never feeling they are owed anything, just accepting whatever they have. Chances are very few.
It's not an abnormal or unusual idea, although many are making it sound so out there. We live by the principle of deserving and entitlement everyday, despite not being conscious of it. We expect great customer service even if we're bad customers. We expect great families and friends, even if we are not always good friends or family. We expect good paying jobs or opportunities even if we're not always the best employer or co-worker. We use this kind of thinking everyday in our lives. We don't mind wanting or asking the most or best for ourselves, even if we may not be the best persons to receive or deserve it. This doesn't stop us from wanting, expecting, or striving for it.
Are we really so much more enlightened and supposedly better than those who believe they are entitled to a fair chance, which is what I think the real issue is? Citing extreme views will of course lead to "this is obviously ridiculous, I can't believe they think this," conveniently ignoring possible fair criticism in the views of those who use questionable criteria to judge someone's value. Everyone has a right to their personal preferences but the reality is, we are not always fairly judged or given the same chances. Our world judges people too harshly and superficially, then makes this judgments popular and universal, expecting most if not everyone to follow them as rules of law. We simply fall in line, with an "of course, to be worthy, you have to be or do A, B, C, D. That's the standard. Can't expect otherwise".
I think the real problem with the incent is not that they have expectations, because we all have expectations. The question is are those expectations fair and realistic? We all feel we are owed things everyday, regardless if we are justified in thinking this way. Maybe the question the incent should ask themselves is why they think they deserve it and whether their way of thinking, attitudes, behavior, and actions make them deserving of the things they want? In other words, if you don't treat others with respect, are you owed respect? Probably not. Just as if we treat others with respect, we are most likely to think we are owed respect. We see this as a matter of exchange and reciprocity.
Sidenote: Kinda weird that we are judging this group for their sexual wants or needs, when I've heard so often people talking or writing about great sex as a right if they are with someone who wants them. In other words, "if you want to keep me, then it should be good." or "I'm hot or a great catch, so I'm owed good sex." So, why are so surprised by this thinking as if it's just this one group who thinks this way? Yes, we may not be as self pitying as they are (although I am a huge ball of self pity sometimes), but we often hold very similar views which we live out in our lives everyday.
Fact is, some people are seen as better than others without the hard work or effort others have talked about. It's really interesting that we think people should work hard to earn their value, while many get things without even lifting a finger. Pretending that all it takes is a good amount hard work in mind, body, and spirit to deserve someone is fairytale sold through media and advertising. Never that simple. Instead of addressing extreme views where we condemn people for feeling entitled, although most of us, even if we would like to think we are above thinking this way, would rather believe that we deserve to have a partner because our world says we are entitled to these things if we become the things and person which makes us desirable to others.
Another thing: Feeling entitled is different from being entitled. Being entitled means you will get things whether or not you deserve them. You can be entitled and not feel entitled. Feeling entitled means you think you have a right to things you may not have but feel you have a right to want and receive. Hypothetically, if I think I'm an attractive person, I will likely think I have a right to meet someone who will want and appreciate me for being an attractive person. I am not likely to think I should be alone, unless I don't want to be attached. It would be more natural to think I should have a good chance at meeting someone who is interested without having to make a huge amount of effort, if I think I'm a great catch as is.
On average, most of us are likely to think, whether or not we have something, we feel that we have a right to have something because we deem ourselves great people, and therefore, have a right to great things that we want to have. There's nothing unusual about feeling owed. We live by that principle in our lives everyday.
It's not an abnormal or unusual idea, although many are making it sound so out there. We live by the principle of deserving and entitlement everyday, despite not being conscious of it. We expect great customer service even if we're bad customers. We expect great families and friends, even if we are not always good friends or family. We expect good paying jobs or opportunities even if we're not always the best employer or co-worker. We use this kind of thinking everyday in our lives. We don't mind wanting or asking the most or best for ourselves, even if we may not be the best persons to receive or deserve it. This doesn't stop us from wanting, expecting, or striving for it.
Are we really so much more enlightened and supposedly better than those who believe they are entitled to a fair chance, which is what I think the real issue is? Citing extreme views will of course lead to "this is obviously ridiculous, I can't believe they think this," conveniently ignoring possible fair criticism in the views of those who use questionable criteria to judge someone's value. Everyone has a right to their personal preferences but the reality is, we are not always fairly judged or given the same chances. Our world judges people too harshly and superficially, then makes this judgments popular and universal, expecting most if not everyone to follow them as rules of law. We simply fall in line, with an "of course, to be worthy, you have to be or do A, B, C, D. That's the standard. Can't expect otherwise".
I think the real problem with the incent is not that they have expectations, because we all have expectations. The question is are those expectations fair and realistic? We all feel we are owed things everyday, regardless if we are justified in thinking this way. Maybe the question the incent should ask themselves is why they think they deserve it and whether their way of thinking, attitudes, behavior, and actions make them deserving of the things they want? In other words, if you don't treat others with respect, are you owed respect? Probably not. Just as if we treat others with respect, we are most likely to think we are owed respect. We see this as a matter of exchange and reciprocity.
Sidenote: Kinda weird that we are judging this group for their sexual wants or needs, when I've heard so often people talking or writing about great sex as a right if they are with someone who wants them. In other words, "if you want to keep me, then it should be good." or "I'm hot or a great catch, so I'm owed good sex." So, why are so surprised by this thinking as if it's just this one group who thinks this way? Yes, we may not be as self pitying as they are (although I am a huge ball of self pity sometimes
), but we often hold very similar views which we live out in our lives everyday.Fact is, some people are seen as better than others without the hard work or effort others have talked about. It's really interesting that we think people should work hard to earn their value, while many get things without even lifting a finger. Pretending that all it takes is a good amount hard work in mind, body, and spirit to deserve someone is fairytale sold through media and advertising. Never that simple. Instead of addressing extreme views where we condemn people for feeling entitled, although most of us, even if we would like to think we are above thinking this way, would rather believe that we deserve to have a partner because our world says we are entitled to these things if we become the things and person which makes us desirable to others.
Another thing: Feeling entitled is different from being entitled. Being entitled means you will get things whether or not you deserve them. You can be entitled and not feel entitled. Feeling entitled means you think you have a right to things you may not have but feel you have a right to want and receive. Hypothetically, if I think I'm an attractive person, I will likely think I have a right to meet someone who will want and appreciate me for being an attractive person. I am not likely to think I should be alone, unless I don't want to be attached. It would be more natural to think I should have a good chance at meeting someone who is interested without having to make a huge amount of effort, if I think I'm a great catch as is.
On average, most of us are likely to think, whether or not we have something, we feel that we have a right to have something because we deem ourselves great people, and therefore, have a right to great things that we want to have. There's nothing unusual about feeling owed. We live by that principle in our lives everyday.
Nixie
Resurrected
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I find it an interesting point but it fails to recognize the intimate nature of a relationship.
I agree that we have all sorts of expectations in our lives. We experience wants and needs everyday.
However, expecting great customer service for being a paying customer is not the same as expecting a woman to spread her legs for you because that's what you want to happen. It's not even really in the same ballpark in terms of emotional and physical interactions.
I agree that we have all sorts of expectations in our lives. We experience wants and needs everyday.
However, expecting great customer service for being a paying customer is not the same as expecting a woman to spread her legs for you because that's what you want to happen. It's not even really in the same ballpark in terms of emotional and physical interactions.
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Heck yes. Great post, I've chopped up some personal highlights here.
Happy Phantom
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Ewww.