Asperger and autoimmune reactions.

[aeon]

He drew public attention to the fact that there is a link between combined vaccines and autism.

Is that a fact? He drew attention to an outright lie and manipulation presented as truth and fact.


wondering,
Ian

 

[Kavalan]

I didn't call you a PR speaker I wanted to make the point to you that you are operating within a scientific culture which is shaped by economic and political forces.

You insinuated it

This is a bit of a strange analogy but....have you ever watched any reality TV? You might note how the picture which is built of a person often doesn't fit that described by people who know the person or who have been with them on the programme......that is because the way that reality is edited creates that reality.

I don't watch reality shows. I rot my brain through gaming as at least it's not about screwing the next piece of tail walking by.

If the medical industry wants to paint a certain picture it will, regardless of what the truth is eg tabacco companies medical research denying links to cancer

And if you do legitimate research a smear campaign will make those trying to smear look like idiots and waste their time, effort, and money.

The BMC is not an arm of the CDC? The US and the UK are in lock step: ideologically, academically, medically, politically, economically, religiously every which way! They are working together at many different levels. Corporations and their influence is GLOBAL not local.

BMJ: British medical journal. It is peer reviewed by other people in the field of medicine. It passed then and then came under scrutiny now. As was stated in the article I posted that you have most likely abandoned as "propaganda" it states that there was significant bias in the test pool and preexisting conditions that pointed to autism PRIOR to immunization.

You know full well it is IMPOSSIBLE to vaccinate viruses into extinction. So whats the answer? Pump people full of synthetic drugs or seek to improve the conditions and health of the public?

By synthetic in this case it is a less virulent form of the diseases and a live one at that. So if you would consider regressing to outbreaks of MM&R and the loss of time and possible deaths from complications as improving conditions of health; I will pass.

Because at the moment it seems like the powers that be are opting to pump us all full of synthetic drugs whilst making us work longer hours for less pay and increasing the stress of the public (the media is full of stress inducing stories)....what does stress do....it runs down immune systems!

We get it you are a communist. fuck the government fuck the corporations. Loosen your tin foil hat

 

[muir]

Ian

Please look at the interview with the chief of the CDC, i posted, in which she admits that there is a link between combined vaccines and autism

 

[muir]

You insinuated it

No I didn't, I wanted you to think about what might be shaping your views on this subject

I don't watch reality shows. I rot my brain through gaming as at least it's not about screwing the next piece of tail walking by.

Neither do I but i presume you are familiar with the format and have at least seen a little, considering they are one of the most significant things to have occured in public programming in recent years? I take it that most of the reality tv in the US is about people trying to pull?

And if you do legitimate research a smear campaign will make those trying to smear look like idiots and waste their time, effort, and money.

Who funds the research?

BMJ: British medical journal. It is peer reviewed by other people in the field of medicine. It passed then and then came under scrutiny now. As was stated in the article I posted that you have most likely abandoned as "propaganda" it states that there was significant bias in the test pool and preexisting conditions that pointed to autism PRIOR to immunization.

I will read the article you have posted, but i am now trying to field posts that are directed at me.

Are the 'preexisting conditions that pointed to autism PRIOR to immunisation' mitochondrial disorders?

By synthetic in this case it is a less virulent form of the diseases and a live one at that. So if you would consider regressing to outbreaks of MM&R and the loss of time and possible deaths from complications as improving conditions of health; I will pass.

I made the point already that wakefield DID NOT SAY HE WAS AGAINST THE VACCINES he said he was AGAINST COMBINING THE VACCINES.

Other vaccines are a different issue and you yourself in a previous post stated your reservations about the flu vaccine did you not? These vaccines are all part of the same story, which is about the public NOT BEING TOLD THE FULL STORY

We get it you are a communist. fuck the government fuck the corporations. Loosen your tin foil hat

No you don't get it at all.....I am not a communist

 

[Kavalan]

No I didn't, I wanted you to think about what might be shaping your views on this subject

It's simple. Don't make claims you cannot back up. Don't treat a pool of 12 as a reasonable test size(12 was the number of subjects he used I know not what is considered amicable size but it seems very narrow). And reproduce it and document the reproduction.

Neither do I but i presume you are familiar with the format and have at least seen a little, considering they are one of the most significant things to have occured in public programming in recent years? I take it that most of the reality tv in the US is about people trying to pull?

I tend to watch sports and comedy. Most everything else is trash.

Who funds the research?

NSF, DoD, NIH, DoEn, DoEd, Nat Petro Fund, Exxon, Sony, Panasonic, Howard Hughes Medical center... the list can go on and on and the constraints of funding depend on who is doing the funding.

I will read the article you have posted, but i am now trying to field posts that are directed at me.

Are the 'preexisting conditions that pointed to autism PRIOR to immunisation' mitochondrial disorders?

They say:

Godlee, the journal's editor-in-chief, said the study shows that of the 12 cases Wakefield examined in his paper, five showed developmental problems before receiving the MMR vaccine and three never had autism.

I made the point already that wakefield DID NOT SAY HE WAS AGAINST THE VACCINES he said he was AGAINST COMBINING THE VACCINES.

Other vaccines are a different issue and you yourself in a previous post stated your reservations about the flu vaccine did you not? These vaccines are all part of the same story, which is about the public NOT BEING TOLD THE FULL STORY

My reservations were dealing with the expedience and possible loss of quality control. That said I also can't be bothered to be immunized for flu A when there are more strains of flu than you can shake a stick at. I also hate needles...

No you don't get it at all.....I am not a communist

sorry Anarchocommunist

 

[muir]

I think the final part of that youtube clip is particularly important where it says that the chief of the CDC, Julie Gerberding left her post in january 20th 2009 and after a legally mandated, one year period, took up her new position as Head of vaccines for Merck Pharmaceuticals, which is the corporation which made the combined MMR vaccine that injured Hannah Poling

 

[Kavalan]

For the mitochondrial disorder, MMR isn't the only thing that can cause a fever spike...

 

[muir]

It's simple. Don't make claims you cannot back up. Don't treat a pool of 12 as a reasonable test size(12 was the number of subjects he used I know not what is considered amicable size but it seems very narrow). And reproduce it and document the reproduction.

Who is making claims they can't back up? Do you mean Dr Wakefield?

I think that the chief of the CDC admitting on live television that there is a link between the combined MMR vaccine and autism should go some way to vindicating the fears of Dr Wakefield.

Can you prove with 100% certainty that the combined MMR vaccine doesn't have a link to autism? Or are we all dealing with probabilities here? Because if we are dealing with probabilities then at what point does it become acceptable for a Doctor to voice their concerns publically?

I tend to watch sports and comedy. Most everything else is trash.

Yeah lets not get into TV or the effects that has on society! One emotionally loaded conversation is enough for me just now.

NSF, DoD, NIH, DoEn, DoEd, Nat Petro Fund, Exxon, Sony, Panasonic, Howard Hughes Medical center... the list can go on and on and the constraints of funding depend on who is doing the funding.

Ok and who owns the shares of these corporations, who has affiliations politically, economically, ideologically, romantically with other people within these organisations? Who is employed by who, who is receiveing bribes from who, why is each piece of research being commissioned, why are other pieces of research not being commissioned, what information is shared, what information is concealed, how is the information presented, what are the stated aims of each corporation, what are the real aims of each corporation, how does different pieces of information impact on the profits of each corporation, who is carrying out the research etc etc etc

My reservations were dealing with the expedience and possible loss of quality control. That said I also can't be bothered to be immunized for flu A when there are more strains of flu than you can shake a stick at. I also hate needles...

Right because it is impossible to vaccinate viruses into extinction, because they mutate right? There's new strains all the time?

So if that is the case are we really doing the right thing concerning cause and effect?

By this i mean should we play a constant game of cat and mouse with viruses which leads to side effects amongst the population or should we aim to improve the general health of the population....if we want best results? But where is the profit in improving the general wellbeing of the public right? Which corporation will benefit from that and fund politicians who will enact the policies needed to improve public health?

sorry Anarchocommunist

We had a debate about that before didn't we?

It's like chalk and cheese....totally different things!

 

[muir]

For the mitochondrial disorder, MMR isn't the only thing that can cause a fever spike...

Come on man! What are you trying to say here? That kids who got autism after getting a fever DIRECTLY after having a combined MMR vaccine weren't actually getting a fever due to the vaccine which they HAD JUST HAD but rather something else which just happened to happen DIRECTLY AFTER THE VACCINE and TO ALL THOSE KIDS WHO HAVE been shown to have autism and a mitochondrial disorder who all mysteriously got a fever DIRECTLY AFTER THEIR VACCINATION......do you know what the probability of that is.........its......

 

[TheLastMohican]

Come on man! What are you trying to say here? That kids who got autism after getting a fever DIRECTLY after having a combined MMR vaccine weren't actually getting a fever due to the vaccine which they HAD JUST HAD but rather something else which just happened to happen DIRECTLY AFTER THE VACCINE and TO ALL THOSE KIDS WHO HAVE been shown to have autism and a mitochondrial disorder who all mysteriously got a fever DIRECTLY AFTER THEIR VACCINATION......do you know what the probability of that is.........its......

It's what? Do you know what the probability is?

 

[Kavalan]

Who is making claims they can't back up? Do you mean Dr Wakefield?

absolutely. He falsified data, and it CANNOT be reproduced. His shit stinks.

I think that the chief of the CDC admitting on live television that there is a link between the combined MMR vaccine and autism should go some way to vindicating the fears of Dr Wakefield.

Here's what I said after the fact:

For the mitochondrial disorder, MMR isn't the only thing that can cause a fever spike...

Furthermore MMR has been in circulation since the 70s and yet the autism rate data starts in the 90s thats a 20 year, generational lag. Where's that data? where are the 40 year old autistic adults? is the frequency there?

Can you prove with 100% certainty that the combined MMR vaccine doesn't have a link to autism? Or are we all dealing with probabilities here? Because if we are dealing with probabilities then at what point does it become acceptable for a Doctor to voice their concerns publically?

I cannot. I'm not a doctor of medicine. That said with what I said above there exists a disconnect in which data either doesn't exist because it hasn't been looked at or it just doesn't exist... find the 40 year olds with autism that have recorded MMR immunizations and a fever spike afterwards. Until then, it's a possibility.

Ok and who owns the shares of these corporations, who has affiliations politically, economically, ideologically, romantically with other people within these organisations? Who is employed by who, who is receiveing bribes from who, why is each piece of research being commissioned, why are other pieces of research not being commissioned, what information is shared, what information is concealed, how is the information presented, what are the stated aims of each corporation, what are the real aims of each corporation, how does different pieces of information impact on the profits of each corporation, who is carrying out the research etc etc etc

i actually listed only two corperations for profit. A non-profit medical research and the rest or government agencies. Beyond that I can say government funding is peer reviewed by those in the field of research being proposed. Proposed research not being funded can range from gross errors in their proposed work to no meaningful for what is being asked for monetarily. information of this nature is generally presented in scientific, peer reviewed journals and the written documentation in the labs are kept with the professor. As for the corperations I don't know but you make it blatently clear you don't like them some I'm not going to bother. Loosen the tin foil hat man.

Right because it is impossible to vaccinate viruses into extinction, because they mutate right? There's new strains all the time?

With rapidly dividing viruses... generally those with compromised systems benefit from immunizations. MMR doesn't change on the same scale as Influenza if at all. I don't know virology beyond that influenza is the rabbit of the virus world.

So if that is the case are we really doing the right thing concerning cause and effect?

minimizes complications from viruses when you are immunized to them

By this i mean should we play a constant game of cat and mouse with viruses which leads to side effects amongst the population or should we aim to improve the general health of the population....if we want best results? But where is the profit in improving the general wellbeing of the public right? Which corporation will benefit from that and fund politicians who will enact the policies needed to improve public health?

only for fast mutating viruses slower or very stable ones as MMR are need at most 2 immunizations, one for 95% of the population to generate a immunity and the second to achieve >99%

We had a debate about that before didn't we?

It's like chalk and cheese....totally different things!

And you were a proponent of anarchocommunism as it eliminates corperations which are the devil in your eyes.

 

[muir]

It's what? Do you know what the probability is?

Unlike various governmental bodies i will not tell you that i know it is impossible with 100% certainty.

We don't live our lives in certainties, we often live our lives in probabilities

When we cross the road we judge the probability that we will make it across the road without being struck by the slow moving car in the distance. We can be pretty sure about this....enough to step out

It seems to me that the probability of fever spikes being related to something else in all the documented cases is extremely unlikely

Big pharma and the corporations affiliated with it fund the research, so we get a biased picture.

The following documentary, if you're interested, takes a look at how drugs are an industry, guided by profit and how drugs are a marketable product:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=739609197405993027#

 

[Kavalan]

Come on man! What are you trying to say here? That kids who got autism after getting a fever DIRECTLY after having a combined MMR vaccine weren't actually getting a fever due to the vaccine which they HAD JUST HAD but rather something else which just happened to happen DIRECTLY AFTER THE VACCINE and TO ALL THOSE KIDS WHO HAVE been shown to have autism and a mitochondrial disorder who all mysteriously got a fever DIRECTLY AFTER THEIR VACCINATION......do you know what the probability of that is.........its......

Well this went far into left field. I was saying that there should be those who triggered the same response from a fever from the flu as someone from MMR. But if you're going to be a fucking twit about it and think I'm an idiot so be it. It's not like you are going to listen because for all you know I AM the head of Merk's vaccination program! Calm the fuck down.

 

[TheLastMohican]

It seems to me that the probability of fever spikes being related to something else in all the documented cases is extremely unlikely

Where are all these cases documented? How many are there? Are the specific vaccines and the timing consistent?

 

[muir]

absolutely. He falsified data, and it CANNOT be reproduced. His shit stinks.

Good....if you go back and read your post again you said 'Don't make claims you cannot back up. Don't treat....' which grammatically is unclear whether or not you were talking about wakefield or me, which is why i asked for clarification. If you were talking about Wakefield that is fine, i am familiar with his case which is why i have not stood by his method.

What i have stood by is his speaking out about his concerns, regardless of his motives. When the chief of the CDC admits there is a link it seems that the concerns he raised have some validity.

Here's what I said after the fact:

Furthermore MMR has been in circulation since the 70s and yet the autism rate data starts in the 90s thats a 20 year, generational lag. Where's that data? where are the 40 year old autistic adults? is the frequency there?

I don't know. I don't know if they are using the same shots. What i do know is that the chief of the CDC has admitted that there is a link between mitochondrial disorders and the combined MMR vaccine. Why the rise in autism? Why do kids seem to develop autism after the combined MMR jab? I don't know. Has there been a rise in kids with mitochondrial disorders? I don't know.

I cannot. I'm not a doctor of medicine. That said with what I said above there exists a disconnect in which data either doesn't exist because it hasn't been looked at or it just doesn't exist... find the 40 year olds with autism that have recorded MMR immunizations and a fever spike afterwards. Until then, it's a possibility.

No neither can I! Is that research being done? Shouldn't it be done? Shouldn't that be a priority of the corporations who are selling us their product?

Don't they have a duty of care to know what their product is doing to us and to fund independant research covering every aspect?

i actually listed only two corperations for profit. A non-profit medical research and the rest or government agencies. Beyond that I can say government funding is peer reviewed by those in the field of research being proposed. Proposed research not being funded can range from gross errors in their proposed work to no meaningful for what is being asked for monetarily. information of this nature is generally presented in scientific, peer reviewed journals and the written documentation in the labs are kept with the professor. As for the corperations I don't know but you make it blatently clear you don't like them some I'm not going to bother. Loosen the tin foil hat man.

Ok substitute the word 'corporation' for 'organisation'. It isn't just the corporations who are motivated by money.

With rapidly dividing viruses... generally those with compromised systems benefit from immunizations. MMR doesn't change on the same scale as Influenza if at all. I don't know virology beyond that influenza is the rabbit of the virus world.

Re-read my post, i didn't mention MMR here. I said 'viruses'. Viruses mutate and I am trying to make the point that one of the best defences against a virus is a healthy immune system.

I do not believe that the powers that be are motivated by a desire to give us healthy immune systems, i think they are motivated by profit....that doesn't make me a tinfoil hat wearer

minimizes complications from viruses when you are immunized to them

I am not arguing for a blanket ban of vaccines.

I am arguing for greater education regarding this and a review of what vaccines/drugs are ESSENTIAL to us and which are motivated by PROFITEERING by big pharma. Also transparent and broader research into the side-effects of their products. That is an issue I am not qualified to make.

only for fast mutating viruses slower or very stable ones as MMR are need at most 2 immunizations, one for 95% of the population to generate a immunity and the second to achieve >99%

And you were a proponent of anarchocommunism as it eliminates corperations which are the devil in your eyes.

I think that the elevated position that corporations have in our society is a big problem yes

 

[aeon]

Ian

Please look at the interview with the chief of the CDC, i posted, in which she admits that there is a link between combined vaccines and autism

My sense is you have a wide allowance for what the word

 

[IndigoSensor]

My sense is you have a wide allowance for what the word

 

[muir]

Well this went far into left field. I was saying that there should be those who triggered the same response from a fever from the flu as someone from MMR. But if you're going to be a fucking twit about it and think I'm an idiot so be it. It's not like you are going to listen because for all you know I AM the head of Merk's vaccination program! Calm the fuck down.

I don't think you are an idiot. I think you fail to see what really makes the world go round.

You have called me a 'twit', a 'tin foil hat wearer' and a 'communist' and have tried to marshal my argument to make it look like i am arguing things that i am not. I have had to ask you to review my posts a number of times.

Perhaps you should 'calm down'

 

[aeon]

By this i mean should we play a constant game of cat and mouse with viruses which leads to side effects amongst the population or should we aim to improve the general health of the population....if we want best results?

We should aim to improve the general health of the population, with the best results possible for that population, overall.

Experience has shown the best way to achieve that result (as it concerns various virii, and a given population) is through vaccine-based immunization of that population, even with the knowledge some individuals may be negatively affected by the process.

When the chief of the CDC admits there is a link it seems that the concerns he raised have some validity.

His

 

[muir]

My sense is you have a wide allowance for what the word