Bad People Don't Exist

[CindyLou]

Kant isn't just somebody.

 

[CindyLou]

Maybe what they think is good, and what you think is evil?

well sure!

I'm sure its convenient and 'good 'for them to not recognize they are evil or they couldn't live with themselves. The absolute refusal to admit what they've done and justify it as good instead of try to master it is evil to me. I think the first step in becoming evil is to convince yourself it doesn't exist. So, I suppose we are on opposite ends here. Lol

 

[Poetic Justice]

If there are no negative consequences to something then what is wrong about it?

I understand your point and was almost convinced for a brief moment by your last post but the fact that right and wrong are not objects or even ideas meant to represent objects, like maths for example, means there can be no objective agreement of what they actually mean. The earth being round vs being flat is not an appropriate metaphor for this I think

The earth is a physical object i.e. objective

Right and wrong are ideas i.e. subjective

The roundness of the earth can be measured directly. Right and wrong cannot

 

[Poetic Justice]

I think the first step in becoming evil is to convince yourself it doesn't exist. So, I suppose we are on opposite ends here. Lol

It makes it easy to treat evil people worse than good people though right? It's justified if they're evil.

Believing they are just different engenders an attitude of understanding and forgiveness. That doesn't mean you should let them carry on doing things you think are bad though. If you can stop them you probably should. Alas, many a war is fought for this reason and even more are fought because some people do believe evil exists

 

[Jack]

If there are no negative consequences to something then what is wrong about it?

I understand your point and was almost convinced for a brief moment by your last post but the fact that right and wrong are not objects or even ideas meant to represent objects, like maths for example, means there can be no objective agreement of what they actually mean. The earth being round vs being flat is not an appropriate metaphor for this I think

The earth is a physical object i.e. objective

Right and wrong are ideas i.e. subjective

The roundness of the earth can be measured directly. Right and wrong cannot

Fair point, so how about a property like "touched by Poetic Justice". I assume your keyboard is being touched by your fingers, so let's say you leave no physical alterations to the keyboard, no dna behind, does your keyboard have the property of having 'been touched by Poetic Justice'? That certainly isn't subjective, but it is not a material aspect of the keyboard either once you've finished touching it. Simply because something is immaterial, doesn't mean it isn't real. (I don't know if you're a hard materialist, but it would be interesting to see a materialist answer this one.)

 

[Poetic Justice]

Fair point, so how about a property like "touched by Poetic Justice". I assume your keyboard is being touched by your fingers, so let's say you leave no physical alterations to the keyboard, no dna behind, does your keyboard have the property of having 'been touched by Poetic Justice'? That certainly isn't subjective, but it is not a material aspect of the keyboard once you've finished touching it. Simply because something is immaterial, doesn't mean it isn't real. (I don't know if you're a hard materialist, but it would be interesting to see a materialist answer this one.)

Me touching my keyboard can be measured directly. You just had to be there at the time. The fact that you weren't doesn't change a thing

 

[CindyLou]

It makes it easy to treat evil people worse than good people though right? It's justified if they're evil.

Believing they are just different engenders an attitude of understanding and forgiveness. That doesn't mean you should let them carry on doing things you think are bad though. If you can stop them you probably should. Alas, many a war is fought for this reason and even more are fought because some people do believe evil exists

Its not justified just because they're evil. I think too many wars are fought because groups of people or 'nations' believe they can't be evil and are above reproach. They shut their eyes to the terrible things they do as a group while justifying themselves as 'good'. So great in their own eyes they point the finger at everyone else but never turning the finger back at themselves...evil.

I don't think the solution is pretending evil doesn't exist but determining how to deal with it without "catching" it and becoming evil yourself (individually or as a group)...

 

[Billy]

Its not justified just because they're evil. I think too many wars are fought because groups of people or 'nations' believe they can't be evil and are above reproach. They shut their eyes to the terrible things they do as a group while justifying themselves as 'good'. So great in their own eyes they point the finger at everyone else but never turning the finger back at themselves...evil.

I don't think the solution is pretending evil doesn't exist but determining how to deal with it without "catching" it and becoming evil yourself (individually or as a group)...

Again, its not that people justify evil and pretend its not, they genuinely believe its not. Do you have any idea how many people were tortured to death in the name of God and considered evil? While the ones doing the torture were considered morally good? Its easy to look back on history and say well yeah they were wrong, but in their time they were not wrong. So what makes you right and them wrong? Maybe god really did think it was good to torture muslims, jews, and atheists.

 

[Poetic Justice]

Its not justified just because they're evil. I think too many wars are fought because groups of people or 'nations' believe they can't be evil and are above reproach. They shut their eyes to the terrible things they do as a group while justifying themselves as 'good'. So great in their own eyes they point the finger at everyone else but never turning the finger back at themselves...evil.

You do realise you just agreed with me right? This just sounds like "the first step to becoming evil is to convince yourself that evil exists"

Believing I'm good and you're evil will probably make me act in an evil way towards you. Exactly my point

 

[CindyLou]

Again, its not that people justify evil and pretend its not, they genuinely believe its not. Do you have any idea how many people were tortured to death in the name of God and considered evil? While the ones doing the torture were considered morally good? Its easy to look back on history and say well yeah they were wrong, but in their time they were not wrong. So what makes you right and them wrong? Maybe god really did think it was good to torture muslims, jews, and atheists.

Right, but the belief that its genuinely not evil is what is evil. Its evil to do evil and justify it as good by using God's name...but religion draws evil to it like flies to sh*t because you can hide behind 'good'. That's nothing new though.

I can be a bad person...you'll never hear me claim that I'm 'good'. What an egotistical statement to make. It would be a lie. By whose standards would I be good? However, just because I can't pin things down logically doesn't mean (to me) that it doesn't exist. I know bad people exist.

 

[CindyLou]

You do realise you just agreed with me right? This just sounds like "the first step to becoming evil is to convince yourself that evil exists"

Believing I'm good and you're evil will probably make me act in an evil way towards you. Exactly my point

I did but I didn't. I think where we don't agree is how to deal with evil. You assume that by saying that bad people don't exist we will somehow conquer evil. (Is that what you're saying?) I don't think that's the solution. If we say no one is evil and bad people don't exist that will not keep people from acting in bad and evil ways.

 

[Jack]

Me touching my keyboard can be measured directly. You just had to be there at the time. The fact that you weren't doesn't change a thing

Right, and I'm sure you agree we can't rewind time. It can be measured directly, but would you agree that there is a difference between that keyboard touched by you, and an exact duplicate with the exact same material characteristics even after you've stopped touching it?

 

[Billy]

Right, but the belief that its genuinely not evil is what is evil. Its evil to do evil and justify it as good by using God's name...but religion draws evil to it like flies to sh*t because you can hide behind 'good'. That's nothing new though.

I can be a bad person...you'll never hear me claim that I'm 'good'. What an egotistical statement to make. It would be a lie. By whose standards would I be good? However, just because I can't pin things down logically doesn't mean (to me) that it doesn't exist. I know bad people exist.

You seriously cannot see the point being made? That what YOU personally see as good or evil is not a standard definition that you can apply to everyone?

 

[Billy]

I did but I didn't. I think where we don't agree is how to deal with evil. You assume that by saying that bad people don't exist we will somehow conquer evil. (Is that what you're saying?) I don't think that's the solution. If we say no one is evil and bad people don't exist that will not keep people from acting in bad and evil ways.

If you're going to use an absolute term like evil or bad you're going to have to define it, and when you're finished doing that, you're going to have to explain why that definition is not ubiquitous with all humans beings past, present and future.

 

[Poetic Justice]

I did but I didn't. I think where we don't agree is how to deal with evil. You assume that by saying that bad people don't exist we will somehow conquer evil. (Is that what you're saying?) I don't think that's the solution. If we say no one is evil and bad people don't exist that will not keep people from acting in bad and evil ways.

No not at all. Stopping people doing things which some people think are bad is I think, impossible.

I guess we're just saying the same thing in different ways which can sometimes seem like disageement

 

[Poetic Justice]

Right, and I'm sure you agree we can't rewind time. It can be measured directly, but would you agree that there is a difference between that keyboard touched by you, and an exact duplicate with the exact same material characteristics even after you've stopped touching it?

One object (my finger) touching another object (the keys) is an objective thing. The keys would be different after I touched them. At the very least I would cause an increase in the entropy of the keys due to the friction of them moving. That, in theory could be measured. The opinion of any person is not relevant in regards to whether or not I touched the keys.

Either it happend or it didn't. That is objective

 

[CindyLou]

You seriously cannot see the point being made? That what YOU personally see as good or evil is not a standard definition that you can apply to everyone?

Just because I don't agree with you on what is good and evil doesn't mean I can't see the point you're making.

Evil people to me are those that hide from their own conscience and lie to themselves. A pathological self-righteousness. Those that would typically be described as sociopaths.

For example, a person can do one or a few terrible things but that wouldn't make them evil. Consistent destructive acts while maintaining their respectable self would be 'evil'.

The only reason I label them as evil sometimes (and don't use the word sociopath) is because I think the response and the path to conquer evil is love. Sociopath just doesn't hit home like the word evil does which might bring about the love response.

Also, I think it can be "caught". Hatred and 'evil'. Whatever you want to call it. By giving it a name (especially in group situations) we can look for it in ourselves in hope we don't turn into something we don't want to be when people do terrible things to us.

 

[Poetic Justice]

Just because I don't agree with you on what is good and evil doesn't mean I can't see the point you're making.

Evil people to me are those that hide from their own conscience and lie to themselves. A pathological self-righteousness. Those that would typically be described as sociopaths.

For example, a person can do one or a few terrible things but that wouldn't make them evil. Consistent destructive acts while maintaining their respectable self would be 'evil'.

The only reason I label them as evil sometimes (and don't use the word sociopath) is because I think the response and the path to conquer evil is love. Sociopath just doesn't hit home like the word evil does which might bring about the love response.

What you're describing actually sounds more like narcissism. My understanding of sociopaths is that they feel the need to have enemies and to see those enemies defeated. Narcissists do this too and are actually worse in my opinion.

I hated them for a while. Now I pity them. I have a deep and fairly comprehensive understanding of narcissism due to my doucebag of a brother and trust me, even the worst of the worst have genuinly good reasons for their behaviour. Reasons that may seem alien and ridiculous to you. They however, believe them fully

 

[Jack]

One object (my finger) touching another object (the keys) is an objective thing. The keys would be different after I touched them. At the very least I would cause an increase in the entropy of the keys due to the friction of them moving. That, in theory could be measured. The opinion of any person is not relevant in regards to whether or not I touched the keys.

Either it happend or it didn't. That is objective

Ok, if I were able to introduce to a key the same physical and measurable changes that you would make to a key by touching it, but I didn't allow you to touch it, that key would not have the property of having been touched by you would it?

 

[abeautifulheartandmind]

I can't quote anything verbatim but there is a school of thought that there are genes for these items. So that brings up the question of whether people are born bad or not. I can only say that even certain non-verbalized or communicated things such as tendency for lying, cheating, addictions, criminal activity, rape, sexual abuse, etc has been shown to run through generations of families as perhaps IQ, personality, certain habits, etc.

I will see if I can locate the actual study...