Being a member of a group, but not part of it.

[Motor Jax]

well, i don't mind being outside of the box...

i stand back and watch humanity go by and i watch... just watching... and wonder what is going in everyone else's lives...

i consider it my sociological hobbies...

i love sitting back at red lights and watching the people drive by, so steeped in themselves, thinking that maybe they will be important... only to realize that we are all just tiny specs in the universe...

 

[pogo_<3]

I'm an extrovert, and I've even been there! Sometimes it sucks, but sometimes its just lack of interest in what's going on around me......

 

[Orion]

I used to feel like this. It was yet another feeling of mine that often corresponds to my very high standards, and links into the idea that if something not live up to my ideal, its not real. I realized that if I continued thinking and feeling this way, I knew I was never going to experience 'belonging' at any level.

I've misjudged so many of my past experiences like this. I thought I didn't belong, I thought I was the 'outsider,' I thought that nobody would remember me once everyone headed down their different paths. But as its been proved time and time again, that's not the case at all. I was fondly remembered and liked, and occassionally the least expected people would contact me after years and years, wondering why I never called or emailed. These were the folks I felt I never 'belonged' with, but here they were, seeking out my company.

I was just cutting myself up for no reason at all because it wasn't how I imagined 'belonging' should feel like. I realized that the happiest people, the ones I perceived as being the ones who 'belonged,' didn't agonize over this or analyze over what 'belonging' meant or if they 'belonged.' They just did their thing.

I personally think its just insecurities talking. INFJ's don't think, feel or process things the way the majority of people do, and we're more than acutely aware of this. We figure that people might notice this about us, and think we're 'weird' or 'strange.' It might actually cause us to pull back because we don't want to stand out as being too different for fear of being judged.

But how does this explain the fact that, I can try so hard to get people to like me- helping out and being there when necessary- yet people still don't want you around? I'm still not part of the group.

 

[RetardedMonkey]

I just accepted that I'm not really a part of any group even if I am a member. It gives me more freedom to be myself and not be so concerned of what others think of me. I think it would be pretty awesome to actually BE part of a group though.

 

[sassafras]

But how does this explain the fact that, I can try so hard to get people to like me- helping out and being there when necessary- yet people still don't want you around? I'm still not part of the group.

You answered your own question: because you're trying too hard. It's a shitty reality, but the more you see of someone or something, people tend to take it or the person for granted.

Look at the market and law of supply and demand, for example. If the marketplace is flooded with the same kind of product, the demand for it is low and the prices are low. The product isn't perceived as valuable because there's so much of it out there desperately vying for people's attention. Sometimes its even annoying when its constantly advertised, because people know if they wanted it, they could go out and get for a dime a dozen anyway. People hate being reminded of what they already know.

But if you introduce a product where supply is low, demand goes up and the value goes up. And the catch is, sometimes its even the same product that was everywhere before!

And yes, I just compared social dynamics to capitalism. But isn't capitalism fueled by the fickle nature of its buyers (people)? It's an unfortuante parallel, but its true.

You're only disrespecting yourself if you keep trying to please other people. And if you don't like yourself enough to have a sense of your own respect, you can't expect people to treat you differently.

Being a doormat doesn't make you a good person, nor do you have to be a doormat to help people. Have your own say, and don't change your values or compromise your time just to fit another person into your schedule because you want them to like you.

Try this experiment: say no every once in a while.

 

[myself]

You're only disrespecting yourself if you keep trying to please other people. And if you don't like yourself enough to have a sense of your own respect, you can't expect people to treat you differently.

Being a doormat doesn't make you a good person, nor do you have to be a doormat to help people. Have your own say, and don't change your values or compromise your time just to fit another person into your schedule because you want them to like you.

Try this experiment: say no every once in a while.

F'n brilliant post from TDHT!

 

[Tamagochi]

But how does this explain the fact that, I can try so hard to get people to like me- helping out and being there when necessary- yet people still don't want you around? I'm still not part of the group.

TheDaringHatTrick described it very nicely and I wholly agree with her. When you're over the fence it seems so obvious, but for those who stayed behind it seems nearly impossible to accomplish. Yet it is doable.

The heart of the problem is the duality of the image of myself I create. Say if I wanted to be a part of the group I automatically assume that I must somehow "earn" it by helping out, being there etc. Two images are created at that moment: one of myself who is not worthy enough to be accepted by itself and another one who demonstrates the best of what I have and therefore is acceptable. The mind assumes that if I showed less of my dark, selfish side and more of a cheerful, helping nature, then I'm gona get some bonus points But all of this schema is just wrong. The two images are just an illusion, there exists only one single person - me. What other people actually see is that I'm trying to impress them and they assume that I have something to hide. That gives them the reason to reject me from the group - even if it is a false one.

When you're over the fence you just go and do what is needed for the group without all the unnecessary scheming. The prime purpose becomes just to help, but not to be accepted or to look good. And when that happens other people do not have a motive to reject you anymore - so you automatically become a part of the group without any extra effort.

 

[slant]

D:

I did not know that there were so many problems associated with being a group. I'm just not in a group because I don't want to be. I can't imagine how it would be like wanting to be part of a group and trying all sorts of tactics and never feeling included. The reason I would think I could never be part of a group, besides independence, is the group mentality. Groups tend not to think for themselves, they have a leader and they vote, depending on what sort of system is in place. Groups do not mesh well with individual thinking.

Maybe this is your problem, INFJs. Maybe it's the fact that most Introverts tend to spend more time thinking about themselves and issues than their relations with others like Extroverts, and you feel not belonging to a group due to the fact that you do think for yourself. Of course a revoluntanary thinker is going to be left in the dust by the herd. Be the shepard, not the sheep.

 

[sassafras]

Maybe this is your problem, INFJs. Maybe it's the fact that most Introverts tend to spend more time thinking about themselves and issues than their relations with others like Extroverts, and you feel not belonging to a group due to the fact that you do think for yourself. Of course a revoluntanary thinker is going to be left in the dust by the herd. Be the shepard, not the sheep.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this one, slant.

Being apart of the group is great, and all, but as soon as you start agonizing over the right way to fit in, or worse, feeling like you don't and compromising yourself and your values for the sake of it... might as well go back to the lunchroom with its plastic trays and pudding cups. You're already doing yourself enough disservice.

 

[Tamagochi]

That's probably the difference between Fi and Fe. The latter is so eager to join the party that they even invent problems for it.

 

[Orion]

(Takes a humble bow)

I get what you guys are saying completely. I'm gonna reel myself in a bit and say that I'm not a doormat and I don't go around throwing myself into people for them to like me. I certainly don't have a problem saying no. When I left secondary school, I definitely went through a period of this for a while and of course I felt what you described TDHT, which prompted me to re-evaluate my actions towards people and myself.

Pertaining to what Slant said about how INFJs will have a tough time finding a group to belong, this is illustrated by the fact that I would never sacrifice my values just to fit in to a group or get people to like me, of course not.

I have moved away from this behaviour and was wondering what the reason was for why it didn't work, and what you said TDHT and Tamagochi was spot on and it completely made sense, so I thank you.

 

[WhiteWolf]

Unless someone actually actively makes me feel part of the group, by simply initiating a conversation with me or acknowledging me through body language (as in making space for me, looking at me, not standing in front of me etc), I feel left out.
When I'm talking with someone I don't feel left out because I'm to busy with focusing myself on the conversation and making sure that the person I'm talking with is not feeling uncomfortable.


I just need a lot of reassurance from people (No idea why though)

If I still feel left out, even after someone reassured me that they want me there. I usually don't want any connection, or I'm disappointed in them because I'm being over idealistic.

 

[Krumplenump]

Another yep. What yield said about feeling that people are merely talking to me as a distraction till their 'real' friends turn up is spot on. I'm okay on a one to one basis but if there more than that I feel it's everyone against me, and I fear that if I say something there'll be a silence afterwards and either polite aknowledgements or them looking at each other!

 

[poetrygirl]

I feel as if I'm a cool person to be around if people are bored or have no alternative, but I'm just a distraction until they have their real friends around or whatever.

I was best friends with someone at my school from my freshman year to my sophomore. Until we got put in a class together with someone she evidently preferred. She completely ignored me unless their was no one else. Which is why I cut ties with her. If she thinks of me as a back up that's what I'll think of her as the same way. It makes me feel used to be with people like that. I hate it when people take me for granted and wonder why I no longer want to be with them.

 

[Orion]

I was best friends with someone at my school from my freshman year to my sophomore. Until we got put in a class together with someone she evidently preferred. She completely ignored me unless their was no one else. Which is why I cut ties with her. If she thinks of me as a back up that's what I'll think of her as the same way. It makes me feel used to be with people like that. I hate it when people take me for granted and wonder why I no longer want to be with them.

It never ceases to amaze me how insensitive and utterly oblivious people can be to others feelings. I do have a handful of people who I consider real friends- people who I know I'll be friends with forever, who I can rely on. To get one good friend, I have to go through 100 shallow acquaintances, it seems.

 

[laurie]

I've felt that quite a bit, mostly when I was younger and less self-confident. It's like 'being' the conversation, but you're not saying anything or doing anything. Kind of merging with everyone else so you feel included, but no one's talking to you and you're talking to no one.
I've slipped a little into doing that recently when I've been tired, but it usually occurs if there are too many people there ^^"

(And you said you couldn't put thought into written word D: good luck understanding that nonsense I just wrote!)

 

[Orion]

I've felt that quite a bit, mostly when I was younger and less self-confident. It's like 'being' the conversation, but you're not saying anything or doing anything. Kind of merging with everyone else so you feel included, but no one's talking to you and you're talking to no one.
I've slipped a little into doing that recently when I've been tired, but it usually occurs if there are too many people there ^^"

(And you said you couldn't put thought into written word D: good luck understanding that nonsense I just wrote!)

When I was about 15, I was part of this young film club. I just could not relate to anyone there. I was always skilled and knowledgeable at what I did so I always had something to say if someone asked me but I struggled immensely with the whole group thing at that time. Those were very hard years but they were necessary for me to grow and get better.

...And what you wrote wasn't nonsense, I understood it, so it must have been legible!

 

[Julia]

I avoid groups as much as possible. Groups like political affiliations, religions, and even type designations I have some tendency to avoid because once you identify with a large category of people, you are then assumed to share all those traits and values. It can be an enormous amount of baggage that can lead to misconceptions.

Informal, social groups are difficult for me, especially when everyone is together at once. There are just so many feelings and needs that it can be overwhelming. I was just watching a movie where there were many social dynamics from friendliness to bullying, and on that evening I even found that a bit dizzying. I do really like people, and when I have a conversation or work with them one-on-one I get a clear feel for how they think (or at least I try). I'm more about depth than breadth when communicating.

I can get confused and overwhelmed by drama and multiple needs at once. I am really uncomfortable with small town politics and keeping track of who is in charge and how to talk to each person, and how everyone operates from prescribed social roles. There is an external, artificial aspect to all of it and keeping track is like rote memorization sometimes. I constantly work to simplify my interpersonal dealings and end up only getting close to those people with whom I can talk directly and honestly.

I have always been on the outside because it always felt like group acceptance was demanding. It required mirroring the behaviors of the group. I like people, but it isn't the singular, absolute priority to belong. I often get lost in ideas. That is more my priority. Social groups that either have strong etiquette rules and in which people are easily offended or quick to judge weary me just like groups that are constantly playing games, pushing buttons, trying to prove personal dominance. The first feels like walking a tightrope and the second like having balls constantly thrown at you. What I really want is to just take a relaxed stroll in the forest. Being obsessed with politeness or rudeness can be oppressive and in a way feel similar because personal communication becomes absorbed into group communication and rules.

If there are groups of people that are easy-going, not easily offended, who's assumptions are positive, open, and non-judgmental, and who don't care about dominance, offending, or pushing buttons, then that might be a fit for me. The closest I've seen to that are at Scifi conventions and experimental art performances.

 

[Shai Gar]

I tend not to belong to any group that I am not born into, unless I make the group myself.

 

[jn56uytrx]

I share your pain, so to speak. I'm a little different though. I sort of sub-conciously chose to be out of the loop and be quiet so people don't have a reason to dislike me

I'm like this as well.

I hold myself apart from groups in my best attempt not to reveal any flaws I sense might draw criticism in a particular group. My flaws are numerous and varied and so the end social result is a fragmented self that is never fully revealed.

I have yet to accept in a real and practical way that the perfection necessary to evade criticism entirely is not achievable and to figure out an alternative to avoidance for dealing with social dissonance.