Breaking out of Western Christianity's Belief Control

[Kgal]

Atonement in the OT was a shadow of the things to come, as I said before. The daily sacrifice was taken away. Jesus died one time for all sin. Read Leviticus and then read Hebrews. Atonement was replaced from daily or yearly to once, so it was not done away with.

Neither was the moral law done away with.

Making fun of this does not sit well for one that claims great spirituality.

"The last enemy that shall be defeated is death." Oh ones of little faith. Ye strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.

You said:

"...When lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin. When sin is finished, It bringeth forth death..."

I agree with this if one looks at it with using the Ego as representative of Death and Suffering as word for sin.

When the Ego lusts after all it desires while blindly believing that things "out there" will satisfy this desire....this results in a constant never ending cycle of frustration and suffering.

When the Ego realizes all it desires is to be found within the self...the Heart...it becomes satisfied and satiated on the Love of Self.... and the constant frustration of suffering dies a sweet death.

Also - I agree with the statement the last enemy to be defeated is Death.

When humans blindly believe they die when death occurs they view Death as the enemy and live in great fear of it's imminent appearance in their lives.

Once the Human understands Death is the great liberator from this earthly existence and they continue on....their fear will subside and Death will no longer be viewed as the ultimate enemy.

It will be the last enemy of Human to "defeat". Not only will they know it is part of the Human existence - they will come to know Death opens the door for Human to walk into the Universe...and all it has to offer them.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

[MENTION=5807]AJ_[/MENTION]

What's this thread all about in a nutshell?

 

[AJ_]

Hi Flavus, thanks for your message. Although anyone is welcome to share whatever they want to here, here are some general thoughts:

If Jesus existed as a real person, his message was corrupted by a government/priest class seeking to control people, who innately have spiritual inclinations.

The original “Christ” teaching was that everyone is a Child or manifestation of the Absolute Source, and that this “Christ” potential is latent within each individual. Those who have achieved enlightenment have connected with this Source through Christ consciousness, Krishna consciousness, Cosmic consciousness — whatever you want to call it. This original teaching is evident in some of the Gnostic scriptures found in the Nag Hammadi library.

If we are manifestations of the Absolute Source, then we are all connected, and the concepts of “fear” and “enemies” are illusions. If I dislike anyone on earth, it’s because I dislike something about myself or because I fear something. People who act “irrationally” according to some are doing so because of illusion — I was under illusion at one time also, so if I pass judgment on them, I pass judgment on myself (judge not, lest you be judged — love your neighbor as yourself — your neighbor is even the one you thought was your enemy). The concept of fear creates the concept of “other” or “outside” — nothing is outside because everything exists within consciousness. Texts and teachings from Advaita Vedanta, Taoism, Zen Buddhism and some Gnostic writings all teach this concept of non-duality. The only enemy is the imagination that there is an enemy.

The way that Western Christianity is presented is that there is always an enemy, there are “enemies of God”, and hell is the destination of those who don’t believe the right things.

Western Christianity also teaches that we are innately fallen — we’re born into this world already as screw-ups or sinful. I would say that this is complete and utter bull manure, but this would be an insult to manure. Everyone on earth is as beautiful and complex as the most beautiful star cluster, and to think less of ourselves is an insult to ourselves and to our Supreme Connection. (I don't doubt the concept of karmic lessons to be learned, even in multiple physical incarnations, but I believe that this is different from saying "we're fallen to begin with". Potential to learn and grow? Yes. Originally screwed up? No.)

The “original religion” or “original spirituality” is many branched -- the paths leading back to Absolute Consciousness are explained in different ways. The corruption of the Gnostic or Christian branch came with Rome and the desire for more earthly control and power. The lie has held up for almost 2,000 years, helping to hide the beautiful light that already exists within each person, a light that can be realized without need of a pope, priest or pastor intercessor.

Imagine if the requirement for “going to heaven” was to believe that George Washington chopped down a cherry tree — “Just believe in this historical event, and you won’t be toasted like a marshmallow forever” — this is similar to what the Roman/Western Christian religion teaches. Christhood, Buddahood, Krishna consciousness are present reality potentials and not simply historical events to check off if one believes in them or not.

My apologies that that ended up being a rather large nutshell - but it's almost the holiday season so maybe it fits

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Hi Flavus, thanks for your message. Although anyone is welcome to share whatever they want to here, here are some general thoughts:

If Jesus existed as a real person, his message was corrupted by a government/priest class seeking to control people, who innately have spiritual inclinations.

The original “Christ” teaching was that everyone is a Child or manifestation of the Absolute Source, and that this “Christ” potential is latent within each individual. Those who have achieved enlightenment have connected with this Source through Christ consciousness, Krishna consciousness, Cosmic consciousness — whatever you want to call it. This original teaching is evident in some of the Gnostic scriptures found in the Nag Hammadi library.

If we are manifestations of the Absolute Source, then we are all connected, and the concepts of “fear” and “enemies” are illusions. If I dislike anyone on earth, it’s because I dislike something about myself or because I fear something. People who act “irrationally” according to some are doing so because of illusion — I was under illusion at one time also, so if I pass judgment on them, I pass judgment on myself (judge not, lest you be judged — love your neighbor as yourself — your neighbor is even the one you thought was your enemy). The concept of fear creates the concept of “other” or “outside” — nothing is outside because everything exists within consciousness. Texts and teachings from Advaita Vedanta, Taoism, Zen Buddhism and some Gnostic writings all teach this concept of non-duality. The only enemy is the imagination that there is an enemy.

The way that Western Christianity is presented is that there is always an enemy, there are “enemies of God”, and hell is the destination of those who don’t believe the right things.

Western Christianity also teaches that we are innately fallen — we’re born into this world already as screw-ups or sinful. I would say that this is complete and utter bull manure, but this would be an insult to manure. Everyone on earth is as beautiful and complex as the most beautiful star cluster, and to think less of ourselves is an insult to ourselves and to our Supreme Connection. (I don't doubt the concept of karmic lessons to be learned, even in multiple physical incarnations, but I believe that this is different from saying "we're fallen to begin with". Potential to learn and grow? Yes. Originally screwed up? No.)

The “original religion” or “original spirituality” is many branched -- the paths leading back to Absolute Consciousness are explained in different ways. The corruption of the Gnostic or Christian branch came with Rome and the desire for more earthly control and power. The lie has held up for almost 2,000 years, helping to hide the beautiful light that already exists within each person, a light that can be realized without need of a pope, priest or pastor intercessor.

Imagine if the requirement for “going to heaven” was to believe that George Washington chopped down a cherry tree — “Just believe in this historical event, and you won’t be toasted like a marshmallow forever” — this is similar to what the Roman/Western Christian religion teaches. Christhood, Buddahood, Krishna consciousness are present reality potentials and not simply historical events to check off if one believes in them or not.

My apologies that that ended up being a rather large nutshell - but it's almost the holiday season so maybe it fits

Thank you... but I mean, what's this stuff you're writing all about?
(All the stuff in your reply... what is it about - what's the main point?)

 

[AJ_]

Thank you... but I mean, what's this stuff you're writing all about?
(All the stuff in your reply... what is it about - what's the main point?)

It was sort of an outlet/catharsis for me of Western Christian fear-based dogmatic programming and an attempt at the integration or synthesis of the truths shared across multiple spiritual sciences/belief systems.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

It was sort of an outlet/catharsis for me of Western Christian fear-based dogmatic programming and an attempt at the integration or synthesis of the truths shared across multiple spiritual sciences/belief systems.

Those two things are entangled too much. It makes your synthesis sound like hate-based dogmatic programming. (Not being adversarial, but it just reads like pages of "those others are evil and stupid" spirituality). I didn't know if this was about calling stupid on others, or about some spiritual goal.

 

[AJ_]

The original post was written at the beginning of the process, so it had more negativity embedded in it than what it should have. I attempted to soften the harshness I saw in it at a later point in time but it was uneditable by then. I apologize for anything written in this thread or any thread that is or could be interpreted as hate-based.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

The original post was written at the beginning of the process, so it had more negativity embedded in it than what it should have. I attempted to soften the harshness I saw in it at a later point in time but it was uneditable by then. I apologize for anything written in this thread or any thread that is or could be interpreted as hate-based.

Apologies for past views aren't needed. It's just hard to find the goal which is trying to be reached, when there is a lot of reactionary stuff mixed in.

It seems to me that virtually every belief system has a lot of good elements/goals. Some have a few overriding elements, or fundamental outlooks which I have big issues with. I also have issues with how different belief systems are expected to interact.

Nevertheless, if one is going to be critiquing another culture/religion it seems less confused if that critique isn't about how that system differs from one's own, but rather the particular bad points/effects/interractions. I think it is especially confusing when critique is made at the level of claiming blanket superiority of one's own system; and blanket inferiority of another. What ends up happening is that nothing substantial is said neither about other belief systems, nor one's own. I'm interested in why you have your belief system - either in terms of subjective benefit; or in terms of objective content.

 

[AJ_]

The main issues from fundamentalist Christianity are the doctrines of eternal punishment and original sin. The notion of eternal punishment can create a life-long state of fear and the notion of original sin can create a life-long sense of guilt. Fear and guilt, which can cause stress and completely incapacitate people, create disease within one’s mind and body. If the originators of these deceptions say that they have the solution — offer tithes and come to church every Saturday or Sunday, then it is just a racket. This really isn’t even trying to be rude, it’s just stating what is evident.

Animals and especially humans have the capacity to look at a given situation or phenomenon and see something that may be out of place or not beneficial to well-being. If I have a thorn stuck in my foot I have the capacity to comprehend it and take it out. Seeing that fundamentalist Christianity with its doctrines of fear and guilt can create maladies for many people is observing what is evident.

What sometimes happens is that people who are brought up in fundamentalist Christian homes and then start to think for themselves end up completely abandoning any type of spiritual thoughts and become locked completely into the material world. It’s all “woo” or flying spaghetti monsters at that point. I was brought up in a conservative (bordering on fundamentalist) Christian home and although my parents loved me, they bought into eternal hell and original sin and gave it to me to deal with. The message is completely dissonant — loving god and eternal hell, and really it shouldn’t take anyone long to see through this fabricated concept but it took me longer than most. I tried to justify things for a long time, but eventually I was just left floating in a void.

Choosing to go into the void was the best choice I ever made, because it helped me to realize that what connects us will always be greater than what appears to separate us.

[video=youtube;i-Wc5E8Puuk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-Wc5E8Puuk[/video]

I don’t really have a system, but it’s helped me to do some unlearning by reading things like the Tao, the Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita, Shobogenzo, the Gnostic texts, and some writings on ancient Egyptian philosophy and religion. It’s helped me to see more connection.

My intention was not to be hurtful or offensive but to work through and share an experience and share some things that have helped to bring in a little bit more light. You mentioned that these things (a critique and comparing other religions) are entangled too much and that the critique is confused. I agree. I threw a bunch of junk into a public forum and realize that the junk will have some kind of gelatinous pattern or shape to some and to others it will simply look like junk. It was partly an attempt to look back and figure things out and I realized too late that I probably should have done so on my own without typing in a public forum, especially if the writing comes across as hateful, so I apologize.

 

[just me]

You said:


I agree with this if one looks at it with using the Ego as representative of Death and Suffering as word for sin.

When the Ego lusts after all it desires while blindly believing that things "out there" will satisfy this desire....this results in a constant never ending cycle of frustration and suffering.

When the Ego realizes all it desires is to be found within the self...the Heart...it becomes satisfied and satiated on the Love of Self.... and the constant frustration of suffering dies a sweet death.

Also - I agree with the statement the last enemy to be defeated is Death.

When humans blindly believe they die when death occurs they view Death as the enemy and live in great fear of it's imminent appearance in their lives.

Once the Human understands Death is the great liberator from this earthly existence and they continue on....their fear will subside and Death will no longer be viewed as the ultimate enemy.

It will be the last enemy of Human to "defeat". Not only will they know it is part of the Human existence - they will come to know Death opens the door for Human to walk into the Universe...and all it has to offer them.

One must decipher the words used when this was written and what their meanings represented back then. They simply cannot place what they think and be correct. It can be stated as an opinion of what one thinks in regards to it, but the dirt must be carefully swept out of the roots to reveal its truth. There was no death in this earth; no knowledge of good and evil: only innocence and God's Word was to be enough at that time. I do not have the time to write what is needed here now, as someone else is not paying my bills.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

The main issues from fundamentalist Christianity are the doctrines of eternal punishment and original sin. The notion of eternal punishment can create a life-long state of fear and the notion of original sin can create a life-long sense of guilt. Fear and guilt, which can cause stress and completely incapacitate people, create disease within one’s mind and body. If the originators of these deceptions say that they have the solution — offer tithes and come to church every Saturday or Sunday, then it is just a racket. This really isn’t even trying to be rude, it’s just stating what is evident.

Animals and especially humans have the capacity to look at a given situation or phenomenon and see something that may be out of place or not beneficial to well-being. If I have a thorn stuck in my foot I have the capacity to comprehend it and take it out. Seeing that fundamentalist Christianity with its doctrines of fear and guilt can create maladies for many people is observing what is evident.

What sometimes happens is that people who are brought up in fundamentalist Christian homes and then start to think for themselves end up completely abandoning any type of spiritual thoughts and become locked completely into the material world. It’s all “woo” or flying spaghetti monsters at that point. I was brought up in a conservative (bordering on fundamentalist) Christian home and although my parents loved me, they bought into eternal hell and original sin and gave it to me to deal with. The message is completely dissonant — loving god and eternal hell, and really it shouldn’t take anyone long to see through this fabricated concept but it took me longer than most. I tried to justify things for a long time, but eventually I was just left floating in a void.

Choosing to go into the void was the best choice I ever made, because it helped me to realize that what connects us will always be greater than what appears to separate us.

[video=youtube;i-Wc5E8Puuk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-Wc5E8Puuk[/video]

I don’t really have a system, but it’s helped me to do some unlearning by reading things like the Tao, the Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita, Shobogenzo, the Gnostic texts, and some writings on ancient Egyptian philosophy and religion. It’s helped me to see more connection.

My intention was not to be hurtful or offensive but to work through and share an experience and share some things that have helped to bring in a little bit more light. You mentioned that these things (a critique and comparing other religions) are entangled too much and that the critique is confused. I agree. I threw a bunch of junk into a public forum and realize that the junk will have some kind of gelatinous pattern or shape to some and to others it will simply look like junk. It was partly an attempt to look back and figure things out and I realized too late that I probably should have done so on my own without typing in a public forum, especially if the writing comes across as hateful, so I apologize.

I don't think you need to apologise, just in case someone might have been offended.

I guess what I'm pestering about is that while reacting against things is definitely a part of life, I don't think reaction-ism can form a constructive philosophy of life/religion/spirituality/etc. I don't think that you are simply reacting against Western Christianity - there is definitely an emerging philosophy/spirituality as well. But the two are too entangled in this thread to tell what is reaction and what is action. I am interested to read about the enriching/positive aspects of what you have explored.

 

[Ghoulia Yelps]

If there is a god, he is not interested in religion.