Breaking out of Western Christianity's Belief Control

[Deleted member 10171]

[MENTION=5807]AJ_[/MENTION] Thank you. I'm not here to try and persuade you or to think differently, I'm simply saying “Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?–unless indeed you fail to meet the test!" 2 Corinthians 13:5

I'm confused - if you have rejected Christianity, why are you still using the Word to support and promote your ideas? What is your ultimate source of authority?

 

[sprinkles]

I think it's less about what the Bible says and more about how people use what the Bible says.

The fact is that it is incredibly common for professed Christians to attempt to poach other religions and non-believers and convert them, and once they have them they will say almost anything to keep them.

Some of you might try to say that that's not how it's supposed to be, but by and large that's how it is. It's so prolific that the process is even syndicated on cable television.

 

[Skarekrow]

Take a look at ‘The Good News Club’ for example.
I found out about these guys because they came to the Boys and Girls Club that my Son goes to.
http://www.goodnewsclubs.info

Last time I checked (and I let them know at B&G Club), people could not prosthelytize their religion to my child without my permission.
I, along with other parents basically ran them out of town by spreading the word they were visiting last summer.

 

[sprinkles]

Take a look at ‘The Good News Club’ for example.
I found out about these guys because they came to the Boys and Girls Club that my Son goes to.
http://www.goodnewsclubs.info

Last time I checked (and I let them know at B&G Club), people could not prosthelytize their religion to my child without my permission.
I, along with other parents basically ran them out of town by spreading the word they were visiting last summer.

When I actually went to church - and I went for many years because I was raised on it - I would always hear talk about how to "bring someone to Christ." There were entire classes and meetings about it some times. People would testify about how they're working their athiest/hindu/muslim/buddhist/whatever friend and getting them to "seek God." It almost sounded like a contest and it sure seemed like a lot of members would redouble their efforts in order to not be out done. Getting a non-believer to come to church with them was almost like getting some kind of trophy. Then they'd talk about how so and so is "seeking the word" and "convicted but young in the faith."

I didn't even think of it that way while I was in, I was totally sold on it for a while. I wonder why.

Edit:
Not to mention the college age kids that would group up and pile in a car to go do street corner preaching in some random place like it was the funnest thing ever.

 

[Skarekrow]

When I actually went to church - and I went for many years because I was raised on it - I would always hear talk about how to "bring someone to Christ." There were entire classes and meetings about it some times. People would testify about how they're working their athiest/hindu/muslim/buddhist/whatever friend and getting them to "seek God." It almost sounded like a contest and it sure seemed like a lot of members would redouble their efforts in order to not be out done. Getting a non-believer to come to church with them was almost like getting some kind of trophy. Then they'd talk about how so and so is "seeking the word" and "convicted but young in the faith."

I didn't even think of it that way while I was in, I was totally sold on it for a while. I wonder why.

Edit:
Not to mention the college age kids that would group up and pile in a car to go do street corner preaching in some random place like it was the funnest thing ever.

I wouldn’t object to it so vehemently if they didn’t use the tactics they use.
They use fear, intimidation, peer-pressure, but mainly fear.
Just read through some of the shit they talk to kids about.
They preach Hell fire and that everyone has a black heart…yes, even you little child.
Fucking psychos.

 

[Skarekrow]

 

[just me]

Only things I see growing in the water outside from the rains are mosquito larvae and a water bug here and there. I also see the world digressing lately with a polluted mindset. The Bible must be like a Confederate Flag to some folk: keeps reminding them of who they are.

The pictures of the day were mainly Muslims praying around the world, salted with a pic or two of other things like dead Marines from one of them. Why don't you folk attack Islam, being they would treat you worse than Christians. Go have your gay parades in Saudi Arabia. Have your same sex marriages in Iran. The many voices of freedom are being trampled upon in America. Try it somewhere else. At the way this place is going, you won't be allowed your lifestyles much longer here. Can't see how this is attacking Christianity? It doesn't feel good to be attacked, does it?

 

[Skarekrow]

Only things I see growing in the water outside from the rains are mosquito larvae and a water bug here and there. I also see the world digressing lately with a polluted mindset. The Bible must be like a Confederate Flag to some folk: keeps reminding them of who they are.

The pictures of the day were mainly Muslims praying around the world, salted with a pic or two of other things like dead Marines from one of them. Why don't you folk attack Islam, being they would treat you worse than Christians. Go have your gay parades in Saudi Arabia. Have your same sex marriages in Iran. The many voices of freedom are being trampled upon in America. Try it somewhere else. At the way this place is going, you won't be allowed your lifestyles much longer here. Can't see how this is attacking Christianity? It doesn't feel good to be attacked, does it?

I agree, that the world seems to be getting worse and worse…but this wouldn’t be the first time things have gotten really bad around the world and humanity has usually not only survived and thrived, but have seem to come to a greater worldwide view of morality and that being a good moral person has absolutely nothing to do with being a religious person.
I consider myself to be a pretty liberal guy (I’m sure you think the same), but I was also raised in very strict Mormon values (which I have to admit, have very good family values, much more so than most religions), I have also served my country in the military.
My older brother is Gay…one of my younger brothers really digs BIG women (he’s tall and thin haha)…everyone is different in different ways.
My parents chose their Son over their religion…the religion that has spent millions of dollars lobbying to keep gays from having the same rights as a strait couple…the religion that says he is going to Hell even though he is the kindest person you will ever have the pleasure of meeting should you be so lucky.
My Mom says she was pretty sure he was gay by the time he was about 5 or 6…when he came out to them they were both like - “Yeah, so what…you are always our Son.”
Many kids aren’t so lucky when their parents find out…many “Christian” families turn their back on their very own flesh and blood because they are too ignorant to read the literature disproving again and again that being gay is some kind of choice.
Yeah, my brother chose to be ostracized and attacked verbally and physically…get the fuck off your high horse.
No one is attacking Christianity any more than any other religion is criticized…it just so happens that there is just very little to critique the Buddhists on…I mean what? - Stop being so at peace with yourself you selfish prick!
What is being attacked is the hypocrisy that is rampant in the US conservative Christian right.
Who clearly do not follow the teaching of Jesus otherwise we wouldn’t have kids needing adoption, or homeless people living in the street…kids wouldn’t go to bed hungry

1. Unfortunately, food insecurity is an obstacle that threatens that critical foundation. According to the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA), 15.8 million children under 18 in the United States live in households where they are unable to consistently access enough nutritious food necessary for a healthy life.

But a “Christian” nation seems to turn a blind eye to such things…yes, the favorite things for Congress to cut and defund is not our bloated military budget, but it’s the programs the help those who need help the most…and that is just wrong, you can’t paint that picture any other way.
Some of the most hateful people that I have ever encountered in my life have self-identified as so-called “Christians”…and sure, none of us are perfect…but the whole idea of this thread is to break out of the hypocrisy that is like a 2 ton pink and green elephant in the room that everyone insists was in the Bible because it supports their hateful and selfish views.
I don’t hate Christians…my Mom is a Christian, my girlfriend is a Christian…what I hate are liars.
And people who pretend to follow the teachings of Christ and then burn down a bakers dozen or so black churches, because they are butt-hurt their racist flag is being taken down (and yes, if it was added to the fucking states grounds during the civil rights movements of the 1960s ((which is what happened)) then it was for racist reasons and intimidation.).
No one is perfect, I’m not, you’re not…we’re all just trying to get by…why purposefully make life more difficult for another group of people because you personally disagree with it on religious grounds?
Religious grounds that are not being attacked.
No one is stopping anyone from worshiping in any way they wish to…if anything, it is the religious right that is trying impose it’s dogma on everyone else.
Silliness.

 

[Skarekrow]

 

[sprinkles]

Only things I see growing in the water outside from the rains are mosquito larvae and a water bug here and there. I also see the world digressing lately with a polluted mindset. The Bible must be like a Confederate Flag to some folk: keeps reminding them of who they are.

The pictures of the day were mainly Muslims praying around the world, salted with a pic or two of other things like dead Marines from one of them. Why don't you folk attack Islam, being they would treat you worse than Christians. Go have your gay parades in Saudi Arabia. Have your same sex marriages in Iran. The many voices of freedom are being trampled upon in America. Try it somewhere else. At the way this place is going, you won't be allowed your lifestyles much longer here. Can't see how this is attacking Christianity? It doesn't feel good to be attacked, does it?

Yes and we're trying to avoid Christianity becoming another version of Islam before it's too late.

Over there we hardly have a chance because the extremists are already completely closed minded. It'd be pointless to complain to or attack them. But on this side of the world we have a chance still to prevent that sort of thing from happening by getting away from the mindsets that cause it.

 

[sprinkles]

Also having a few people be immune to reproach due to religious affiliation is a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[just me]

I just think there are disturbed elements out there wishing to force Islam on everyone.......part of which is the destruction and undermining of Christianity. Most people that want the Bible to go are Islamic or living a sinful life according to the Bible.

Sin and immorality will always be sin and immorality. Some people accept it and some people just hate it. The lack of understanding the Bible isn't the issue, either: it is the choice of not changing from an immoral life. "I would thou were either hot or cold; but because thou art lukewarm will I spue thee from my mouth."

Edit to add: I know Christians living immoral lives.

 

[Deleted member 10171]

I just think there are disturbed elements out there wishing to force Islam on everyone.......part of which is the destruction and undermining of Christianity. Most people that want the Bible to go are Islamic or living a sinful life according to the Bible.

Have you heard of Chrislam? When I came across this information I was a little surprised (but then again not) to hear about the individuals/groups associated in promoting Chrislam.

 

[Skarekrow]

I just think there are disturbed elements out there wishing to force Islam on everyone.......part of which is the destruction and undermining of Christianity. Most people that want the Bible to go are Islamic or living a sinful life according to the Bible.

Sin and immorality will always be sin and immorality. Some people accept it and some people just hate it. The lack of understanding the Bible isn't the issue, either: it is the choice of not changing from an immoral life. "I would thou were either hot or cold; but because thou art lukewarm will I spue thee from my mouth."

Edit to add: I know Christians living immoral lives.

Pure conjecture…living sinfully according to the Bible.
*sigh*
I would say to you that most Muslims that follow Sharia Law are actually living closer the morals outlined in the Bible than those that espouse to follow Jesus here in the US.
Eat any shrimp lately? You sinner….damn you Sizzler!!

 

[sprinkles]

I just think there are disturbed elements out there wishing to force Islam on everyone.......part of which is the destruction and undermining of Christianity. Most people that want the Bible to go are Islamic or living a sinful life according to the Bible.

Sin and immorality will always be sin and immorality. Some people accept it and some people just hate it. The lack of understanding the Bible isn't the issue, either: it is the choice of not changing from an immoral life. "I would thou were either hot or cold; but because thou art lukewarm will I spue thee from my mouth."

Edit to add: I know Christians living immoral lives.

Muslims believe they are moral too, and they expect what they see as correct moral behavior on command of their god. What makes you different?

Edit:
In fact I could see a Muslim extremist making this exact same argument against Christianity. Actually I'm sure that argument has been made numerous times. Why do you think Christians are persecuted in some places? Is it prophecy? No, it's Muslims using the very same tack you're trying to pull right now, but somehow it's only ever right when you do it.

 

[Tin Man]

Wait, that's Ewan McGregor as Obi Wan Kenobi.

If you're going to choose a savior, you could do worse than Obi Wan.

 

[Skarekrow]

Wait, that's Ewan McGregor as Obi Wan Kenobi.

If you're going to choose a savior, you could do worse than Obi Wan.

He’s got a fantastic fashion-mullet!

 

[just me]

Never ever heard of Chrislam til I read your post.

 

[AJ_]

Jung on individuation:

Individuation means becoming an “in-dividual,” and, in so far as “individuality” embraces our innermost, last, and incomparable uniqueness, it also implies becoming one’s own self. We could therefore translate individuation as “coming to selfhood” or “self-realization.

Myths and religious stories can be viewed as archetypal descriptions of an individual delving into the collective unconscious in order to become fully individuated.


Motifs of individuation in stories across religions and cultures:


God becomes man (usu. through virgin birth/birth of spirit)
Divine births are symbolic, referring to the incarnation of the Higher Self into an earthly existence. In order to incarnate into a physical reality, our soul/spirit had to split into two parts, one below and one above, and a quest is undertaken in order to merge these two again.


Dark twin / Lower (usually older) Sibling / Shadow side
An individual must confront their own shadow and the unconscious in order to become fully individuated. Confronting does not involve being victorious or dominating. It involves accepting, integrating, sublimating, and loving. If we project parts of our shadow onto others, we will always be judgmental of others (or one group of people will project their fears and hatred onto another group of people).


Hero/Savior figure endures a sacrifice
As the individual self goes through the trials of achieving the Higher Self, it sacrifices an attachment to material nature in a spirit of self-giving love for others. The lower nature (i.e. man) sacrifices itself for the realization of “at-one-ment” with the Absolute.


Hero/Savior figure visits a well, fountain or pool:
It’s no secret that many of the myths and religious stories passed down to us are from a patriarchal mindset, and are usually from the male point of view. When the hero figure visits a well, fountain, or water (and meets a female there in many stories), it is the individual delving into the feminine side of their nature – integrating and understanding that aspect of themselves more fully.


Flood / Destruction of Humanity or a group of people
A peaceful, enlightened mind is the means to rising above the apparent chaos in one’s environment. The world is a mirror to the self – when the self becomes calm, the world becomes calm. The "old and tired ways" of the individual are "destroyed" and they move on to bigger and better things.


Hero/Savior Figure goes to the underworld:
It is necessary to go down to the soul depths of the unconscious in order to reach the spirit heights. In When the Gods Came Down, Alan Alford explains the Underworld as being like the a letter j, saying that it was necessary first to go down the curve at the bottom of the j in order to ascend the stem.


COMMON MESSAGE: THE KINGDOM / DIVINE LIGHT / LIMITLESS SUN IS IN YOU
As an immortal spirit having a human experience, you always have the connection to the Limitless All, it’s just a matter of quieting one’s mind and withdrawing from external stimuli in order to experience it.

 

[Skarekrow]

Jung on individuation:

Individuation means becoming an “in-dividual,” and, in so far as “individuality” embraces our innermost, last, and incomparable uniqueness, it also implies becoming one’s own self. We could therefore translate individuation as “coming to selfhood” or “self-realization.

Myths and religious stories can be viewed as archetypal descriptions of an individual delving into the collective unconscious in order to become fully individuated.


Motifs of individuation in stories across religions and cultures:


God becomes man (usu. through virgin birth/birth of spirit)
Divine births are symbolic, referring to the incarnation of the Higher Self into an earthly existence. In order to incarnate into a physical reality, our soul/spirit had to split into two parts, one below and one above, and a quest is undertaken in order to merge these two again.


Dark twin / Lower (usually older) Sibling / Shadow side
An individual must confront their own shadow and the unconscious in order to become fully individuated. Confronting does not involve being victorious or dominating. It involves accepting, integrating, sublimating, and loving. If we project parts of our shadow onto others, we will always be judgmental of others (or one group of people will project their fears and hatred onto another group of people).


Hero/Savior figure endures a sacrifice
As the individual self goes through the trials of achieving the Higher Self, it sacrifices an attachment to material nature in a spirit of self-giving love for others. The lower nature (i.e. man) sacrifices itself for the realization of “at-one-ment” with the Absolute.


Hero/Savior figure visits a well, fountain or pool:
It’s no secret that many of the myths and religious stories passed down to us are from a patriarchal mindset, and are usually from the male point of view. When the hero figure visits a well, fountain, or water (and meets a female there in many stories), it is the individual delving into the feminine side of their nature – integrating and understanding that aspect of themselves more fully.


Flood / Destruction of Humanity or a group of people
A peaceful, enlightened mind is the means to rising above the apparent chaos in one’s environment. The world is a mirror to the self – when the self becomes calm, the world becomes calm. The "old and tired ways" of the individual are "destroyed" and they move on to bigger and better things.


Hero/Savior Figure goes to the underworld:
It is necessary to go down to the soul depths of the unconscious in order to reach the spirit heights. In When the Gods Came Down, Alan Alford explains the Underworld as being like the a letter j, saying that it was necessary first to go down the curve at the bottom of the j in order to ascend the stem.


COMMON MESSAGE: THE KINGDOM / DIVINE LIGHT / LIMITLESS SUN IS IN YOU
As an immortal spirit having a human experience, you always have the connection to the Limitless All, it’s just a matter of quieting one’s mind and withdrawing from external stimuli in order to experience it.

I have always really loved Jung’s concepts and ideas of Individuation…thanks for the additional info!