[PUG] Bullied to death? How about misguided by the people he counted on. (Jamey Rodemeyer)

[DrShephard]

I very much liked [MENTION=3156]saru[/MENTION] 's post.

"...change the "It Gets Better" videos to be done by The Joker from The Dark Knight and Tyler Durden of Fight Club with a mocking grin. By Mersault from The Stranger and Zarathustra via Nietzsche with a load of sarcasm. By Oscar Wilde and Alex DeLarge. Then maybe that message would carry through with a bit more of the correct context." sounds entertaining. But what would it tell kids to actually do? That won't land them in jail or the ER? In order to stop bullying?

I think you need to include specific step-by-step instructions, and keep in mind that some people lack martial arts skills.

Each person is a dynamic individual. We are not copies of copies of copies of copies of each other. Each of us has our own way to relate to the world naturally. My words above are aligned with my strong preference for the individual with regard to "Society and The Individual".

A zen method isn't to teach, but to deconstruct what has been taught. As such, the encouragement that "it gets better" and an encouragement not to fight coming from someone who doesn't sit and hope for the future, nor encourages passivity, would undermine the message altogether and may encourage the listener to question its' foundation.

One cannot rely on others constantly to decide for them - that's an inauthentic life and one hardly worth living. The point isn't TELLING the kid what to do, but letting them decide for themself. Hopefully they are aware of their options and of the likely results. There is no right answer, nor a wrong answer. They must choose, learn, and grow more in themself.

It doesn't really matter though, it all ends the same way and is washed from the present with time. So I suppose either is fine.

Show me the numbers on a reputable website, meaning in part that it doesn't have an agenda regarding LGBT or an agenda against. If you show me the numbers, I'll change my opinion. But until I see real evidence, my assumption is that claiming bullies target gays is no different from saying they target aspburger syndrome or fat kids. I stick to the idea that bullies target easy victims. There are some groups more inclined to have easy victims: any group that is emotionally sensitive or lacks social skills. If I had to pick one group that is consistantly bullied and ostracized for life, it would be schizophrenics.

In my case, it is not clear whether being bullied was a result of my underlying bipolar disorder, or whether the genes carrying the emotinoal sensitivty were simply activated into bipolar disorder by the bullying.

I would say that bullies target those who are different and/or easy victims (who are different in themselves). Gays, fat kids, and the mentally retarded... all of them are "different". Perhaps it's easier to pick on gays because society doesn't exactly endorse it. Look at the fighting against gay marriage! It would be more socially acceptable to pick on a gay kid than, say, someone with down's syndrome... but they both end up getting picked on. One, maybe, more in private than the other.

That's interesting, incidentally. People who are different or easy victims... so then the options are to be a difficult victim, or to appear normal. Any others I'm missing for categories that bullies look for, or how they can be turned around?

You are using a slippery slope argument. The "it gets better" is not a political statement. The purpose of it was to SHOW that they are other LGBT people out there and that they are not alone in this world. As a person who has also suffer from bullying this videos have giving me a sense of hope. LGBT children get national recognition because their suicides happen at a much higher rate. This is by any means not an incentive, and to blame a celebrity for the death of a youth is ridiculous. In that case we should ban all sorts of commercials that promote anybody to achieve any desired perfection, that's impossible. There's nothing wrong with making this a political issue. Many blacks took many risks in the last century for the sake of their own freedom. Many suffered and died, do you think their effort was useless? Same with LGBT activism. This is by no means an agenda. LGBT issues shouldn't even be made political. It's disgusting that it has been made into one. The US constitution demands liberty and justice for all, and even if it was a choice we are ensured personal freedom. You see you need to look at the root of the problem. Centuries of oppression and maltreatment of gays. Now you look at the law system and how it still disfavors them. Gay people get bullied because they are seen as inferior, but isn't that what the US is saying in a sense? By denying the equal protections and rights to gays? If we want this to stop in the long run, we need to CHANGE the system and demonstrate that all those stereotypes and prejudices against gays are untrue. Only then we will see a decline of bullying based on sexual orientation .

There is a difference between the message of the struggle of the blacks in the last century and the message of these videos though. The blacks, although non-violently, opposed their treatment. They refused to cooperate and didn't act in accordance with the way that they were "supposed to". That isn't encouraged in the "it gets better" videos. What is encouraged is sitting and believing that one day it will get better.

Imagine if Martin Luther King hadn't said "We need to fight for better treatment by having parades and showing what is happening and that we aren't ok with it." Imagine if he had said "I'd like to tell all of the young blacks who are being discriminated against... that it gets better. Fighting it isn't acceptable, just stay with it and wait for it to get better. It will." UNACCEPTABLE. So what are some more extreme non-violent ways of dealing with bullies? Those might be picketing outside of their house with a sign that says "Jimmy Morgan bullies me because I am gay." That or publicly announcing the things said. Perhaps posting bulletins around the school, pieces of paper that are typed and say something like...

"Please treat me equally. Not like this:
A faggot should be put down like a sick dog. (Patrick Smith)
You should do everyone a favor and just kill yourself. (Sarah Miles)"
etc etc.

That'd be a good nonviolent way of dealing with it, but it would still be considered an attack - just a mental and societal one rather than a physical one. Fighting for equal treatment, even if it gets you hurt worse temporarily. The blacks got blasted with firehoses and other such things, but then it got better because THEY made it better. At least some of them did.

 

[Nixie]

I also tend to think at the heart of the gay issue is the fact that there is organized religious persecution that nobody wants to discuss. It is outside the "bully" discussion but I think it plays into how society percieves homosexuals in general and creates an unspoken "second-class" citizen mentality that adds to the problem of bullying. That is, in addressing this specific situation.

 

[GracieRuth]

I think gays need to have more of a backbone. There is always going to be someone somewhere who thinks something you do is bad. My mom is a teetotaller -- to her, having even a sip of alcohol is like a major go to hell sin. So do I get bent out of shape by that? Of course not. She's entitled to her opinions. I don't drink or discuss alcohol around her, and so we don't fight about it. Tolerance mean tolerating those you are in disagreement with. If the only people you tolerate are those who approve of everything about you, then I would say you are mostly an INtolerant person.

My religion says sodomy is a sin. Okay, so I don't do it. My religion says having sex when you are not married is a sin. Okay, so I don't do that either. I really don't CARE what others do. If someone doesn't like how you live, then don't be friends. How hard is that? No one needs to be a bully bashing gays or a bully outlawing religious opinions. You don't HAVE to make others agree with you.

ACTUALLY I would prefer for people to stop shoving their sex lives in my face. I do NOT want to hear what you do behind closed doors. If you are married having wonderful sex, fine -- I STILL don't want to hear about it. Some things are just private.

 

[Saru Inc]

I think gays need to have more of a backbone. There is always going to be someone somewhere who thinks something you do is bad. My mom is a teetotaller -- to her, having even a sip of alcohol is like a major go to hell sin. So do I get bent out of shape by that? Of course not. She's entitled to her opinions. I don't drink or discuss alcohol around her, and so we don't fight about it. Tolerance mean tolerating those you are in disagreement with. If the only people you tolerate are those who approve of everything about you, then I would say you are mostly an INtolerant person.

My religion says sodomy is a sin. Okay, so I don't do it. My religion says having sex when you are not married is a sin. Okay, so I don't do that either. I really don't CARE what others do. If someone doesn't like how you live, then don't be friends. How hard is that? No one needs to be a bully bashing gays or a bully outlawing religious opinions. You don't HAVE to make others agree with you.

ACTUALLY I would prefer for people to stop shoving their sex lives in my face. I do NOT want to hear what you do behind closed doors. If you are married having wonderful sex, fine -- I STILL don't want to hear about it. Some things are just private.

But here's the thing though, that's just your disposition. (Which I'm sure you recognize) So it ight not make sense to you, but honestly, if you think of all the billions of people in the world, EVERYONE is bound to have one thing they hold dear to their hearts that they hate to be criticized for. Due to the social tempraments of this era, for most LGBT it's their sexuality. However, a lot of gays also share your views, so its not all gays are crying all their way home.



I for one, care so much why people think being gay is wrong, because I hate hate hate hate letting people down/doing something that brings shame upon myself, or even worse, causes someone else's life a disturbance. I see all the men and women around me who can tell I'm gay and get uncomfortable, and I can't stand that. I hate the fact that merely me existing, is bringing them torment. And that's not to say their bad people, they may have no problem with gays, but they'res till uncomfortable. Its primal. And this primal feeling I get isn't going to go away, not even with some good chicken primordial soup for the soul.

But also, please recognize many of these children who kill themselves have more hormones in their bodies due to puberty than a Costco pharmacy. They can't help it but feel tons of emotions everywhere. And many gay men have severe emotional issues around the gay subject, its actually very complex.

 

[Nixie]

You make my point [MENTION=4576]GracieRuth[/MENTION]

When people condone religious persecution it has a greater impact on a population because there is a sense that it is "right". Religious people always toss out the "yes...but" argument. How about "yes and we are wrong". Religious texts used in organized religion were fashioned by man with the potential to be WRONG. Amazing how we go from "it will get better" to "get over it" when you talk about the religious aspect.

 

[GracieRuth]

I think you would be a happier and healthier person if you could just blow off the opinions of others. I know its not the most natural thing for us, but we can learn how to do it. I routinely get told I'm going to hell because Jesus isn't my personal Lord and savior (and believe me, being a Jew is just as important part of my identity as being gay is to you) but while I'm not going to be good friends with such a person, I do want to live in a world where they are free to believe such things and to say such things.

Okay, that sentence just took 2/3 of the paragraph. Oy

Anyhow, getting back on topic, if I ever saw someone beating you up for being gay, I'd take them on. I hope you would do the same if you saw someone beating up a Jew. I would hope that all of us would take on any bully, regardless of the excuse for the bullying.