Changes to the Bible

um...not googling here but I believe the dead sea scrolls have no mention of Jesus, i think you are thinking of the nag hamadi library.

They do, they held quite a few different Jewish documents including some gospel manuscripts

Edit: More on topic, if you've got the education in Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic, you can read the manuscripts that are hundreds of years old. There not being hidden and they are pretty much the same.
 
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If you want to get an idea of how the torah changed over time, you should compare the Masoretic text with the Samaritan Torah as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint. (The Greek translation was made centuries before vowel points were introduced into Hebrew and so may reflect an older tradition of how to interpret the consonant-only text.)

Most of the changes are very minor and have no theological significance. (Differing guesses on how to interpolate the vowels makes a much bigger difference.) Still it is pretty clear that the original would have been somewhere between the Jewish and the Samaritan versions.

I wouldn't say that the Samaritan version is right in insisting that God must be worshiped only at Mount Gerizim, but they are probably right in identifying that location as opposed to Mount Zion as Mount Moriah. Otherwise you have a confusing situation where Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac on a mountain in the remote wilderness that also happened to be in the center of a major city that already existed and was being ruled by Melchizedek.


The Samaritan version is still written using the Paleo-Hebrew abjad (an alphabet without any way of expressing vowels), which the Jews abandoned in favor of a stylized form of Aramaic script a little over 2000 years ago.


It was originally transmitted orally before it was written down. Moses is described as reciting all the Torah for the people to hear, not writing anything more than the ten commandments. This does not however justify orthodox Jewish notions of the oral tradition. The bible is states clearly that the Torah was lost for generations, and that when a copy of the text was found in the temple people were surprised to find what it contained. The oral account would not have survived that period intact.




Far more distortion happens during translation and exegesis than during the transmission and copying of the texts in the original languages. A lot of misunderstandings were introduced by Augustine, who somehow came to be seen as a foremost authority on the bible despite flunking Greek and never even trying to learn Hebrew. He is the one who popularized the doctrine of Eternal Damnation (which was already dogma in his native North Africa, but considered no more valid than conditional immortality or universal reconciliation elsewhere) and insisted that phrases like "unto the ages of the ages" were idioms referring to infinite rather than extremely long finite periods of time.


Gehenna was the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom, which at one point had been a cult site where Canaanites and some Israelites killed their own children by fire in sacrifice to the false god Moloch. In order to prevent this most evil cult from coming back, the site was made into Jerusalem's garbage dumb, where refuse was incinerated day and night. It was also a place to dump bodies of animals and of humans whose sins were so vile that they were considered unworthy of a proper burial. It was not a place of torture, but a place to destroy the last remains of things that no one wanted to think about.

"Hell" literally means "concealed" and is actually a decent translation of Hades, which literally means "the unseen." We tend to think of Hades in terms of Greek myths about where the souls of the dead (especially the wicked) go, but it had broader meanings that that. It could refer to anything hidden below the surface of the earth. The god Hades presided not only over the dead, but also over the extraction of mineral wealth and the burying of seeds in order that they might grow. Descending into hades does not have to have any sort of mystical meaning pertaining to a departed soul. It can refer quite literally to a body being physically buried in the grave.

Sheal literally means "pit," and referred primarily to the grave in which a dead body was buried. Some groups of Jews (particularly Hellenized ones) pictured some sort of afterlife for the shades of the departed, but the book of Ecclesiastes makes it pretty clear that the dead are not conscious.


Traditional definitions of omnipotence have been limited to only those things which are logically possible. Similarly, some prefer to define omniscience as knowing all things that are possible to know, and posit that the future is not yet determined as so impossible to know (although a full knowledge of the past would allow for some pretty accurate predictions, and omnipotence would allow one to make his predictions come true.)

The only part of the bible that actually describes God as omnipotent is probably a poor translation of a term better rendered as "self-sufficient."

That is an awesome amount of information I have never heard\seen before. Thank you for it even though it wasn't addressed to me.
 
um...not googling here but I believe the dead sea scrolls have no mention of Jesus, i think you are thinking of the nag hamadi library.

They do, they held quite a few different Jewish documents including some gospel manuscripts
Beg your pardon, and please excuse the use of the internet, but I am pretty sure they don't.


also there is disagreement in archeology as to whether there was a group called the Essence at all, quite a few believe the scrolls were a Jewish library that was hidden from the Romans.
 
If you want to get an idea of how the torah changed over time, you should compare the Masoretic text with the Samaritan Torah as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint. (The Greek translation was made centuries before vowel points were introduced into Hebrew and so may reflect an older tradition of how to interpret the consonant-only text.)

Most of the changes are very minor and have no theological significance. (Differing guesses on how to interpolate the vowels makes a much bigger difference.) Still it is pretty clear that the original would have been somewhere between the Jewish and the Samaritan versions.

I wouldn't say that the Samaritan version is right in insisting that God must be worshiped only at Mount Gerizim, but they are probably right in identifying that location as opposed to Mount Zion as Mount Moriah. Otherwise you have a confusing situation where Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac on a mountain in the remote wilderness that also happened to be in the center of a major city that already existed and was being ruled by Melchizedek.


The Samaritan version is still written using the Paleo-Hebrew abjad (an alphabet without any way of expressing vowels), which the Jews abandoned in favor of a stylized form of Aramaic script a little over 2000 years ago.


It was originally transmitted orally before it was written down. Moses is described as reciting all the Torah for the people to hear, not writing anything more than the ten commandments. This does not however justify orthodox Jewish notions of the oral tradition. The bible is states clearly that the Torah was lost for generations, and that when a copy of the text was found in the temple people were surprised to find what it contained. The oral account would not have survived that period intact.




Far more distortion happens during translation and exegesis than during the transmission and copying of the texts in the original languages. A lot of misunderstandings were introduced by Augustine, who somehow came to be seen as a foremost authority on the bible despite flunking Greek and never even trying to learn Hebrew. He is the one who popularized the doctrine of Eternal Damnation (which was already dogma in his native North Africa, but considered no more valid than conditional immortality or universal reconciliation elsewhere) and insisted that phrases like "unto the ages of the ages" were idioms referring to infinite rather than extremely long finite periods of time.


Gehenna was the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom, which at one point had been a cult site where Canaanites and some Israelites killed their own children by fire in sacrifice to the false god Moloch. In order to prevent this most evil cult from coming back, the site was made into Jerusalem's garbage dumb, where refuse was incinerated day and night. It was also a place to dump bodies of animals and of humans whose sins were so vile that they were considered unworthy of a proper burial. It was not a place of torture, but a place to destroy the last remains of things that no one wanted to think about.

"Hell" literally means "concealed" and is actually a decent translation of Hades, which literally means "the unseen." We tend to think of Hades in terms of Greek myths about where the souls of the dead (especially the wicked) go, but it had broader meanings that that. It could refer to anything hidden below the surface of the earth. The god Hades presided not only over the dead, but also over the extraction of mineral wealth and the burying of seeds in order that they might grow. Descending into hades does not have to have any sort of mystical meaning pertaining to a departed soul. It can refer quite literally to a body being physically buried in the grave.

Sheal literally means "pit," and referred primarily to the grave in which a dead body was buried. Some groups of Jews (particularly Hellenized ones) pictured some sort of afterlife for the shades of the departed, but the book of Ecclesiastes makes it pretty clear that the dead are not conscious.


Traditional definitions of omnipotence have been limited to only those things which are logically possible. Similarly, some prefer to define omniscience as knowing all things that are possible to know, and posit that the future is not yet determined as so impossible to know (although a full knowledge of the past would allow for some pretty accurate predictions, and omnipotence would allow one to make his predictions come true.)

The only part of the bible that actually describes God as omnipotent is probably a poor translation of a term better rendered as "self-sufficient."

Is that not what I said minus the full definitions? As far as the descriptions of God goes, it was not nearly a reference to the Bible but to the modern day Christian ideal and general belief of who/what God is.
 
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Interesting? Do you believe that? For lack of a better word to describe it, I do believe a person can be in hell within their own mind. Primarily because I have been there, done it.

If there is a "Hell" after we die, I believe it will be within yourself, not an external force.
 
so kinda like a homeowners legal responsibility to put a fence around her pool.

Isn't that just projecting human mores onto the Divine?
Aren't our own morals in the current western world extracted from Judeo-Christian values?
Not only that, but it is clear that God sees us/treats us as "children" or as a "flock of sheep" therefore it is ultimately his responsibility to teach us, and/or herd us out of danger. We have free will around the pasture, but we cannot cross the fence.
 
If there is a "Hell" after we die, I believe it will be within yourself, not an external force.

I like this. But I think you may go to be with those of similar consciousness.
In that way, many self-perpetuating hell-like places could be made even though souls could leave instantly anytime.
It would have to be a hellish collective consciousness but I do believe there is greater love there too so it would be possible to 'repent'.
 
I like this. But I think you may go to be with those of similar consciousness.
In that way, many self-perpetuating hell-like places could be made even though souls could leave instantly anytime.
It would have to be a hellish collective consciousness but I do believe there is greater love there too so it would be possible to 'repent'.

That is very much the Buddhist version of a "Hell"...you must pay your Karma you have invoked upon yourself in this lifetime...but ultimately it is within your power to end it and continue on into the universe or the next life.
 
That is very much the Buddhist version of a "Hell"...you must pay your Karma you have invoked upon yourself in this lifetime...but ultimately it is within your power to end it and continue on into the universe or the next life.

Indeed. I'd also note that karma is not like punishment tokens as some seem to think it is.

It's more like cause and effect, or the residual effects of your actions. One analogy I think of is that you can either keep your house clean, or you can throw mud all around in it. If you throw mud in it, the mud is going to stay there and you'll be living in mud, but you can still work to clean it up.
 
Indeed. I'd also note that karma is not like punishment tokens as some seem to think it is.

It's more like cause and effect, or the residual effects of your actions. One analogy I think of is that you can either keep your house clean, or you can throw mud all around in it. If you throw mud in it, the mud is going to stay there and you'll be living in mud, but you can still work to clean it up.

Karma is a real thing....or you could just say "You reap what you sow"...either way if you put out good intentions and actions into the universe then good things will return.
 
I had a dream...oh wait. Strange dream where light and dark were struggling to gain hold. (Notice how I did not say fighting). Light was well being, health, freedom...all the good you can imagine. Dark all the bad. In this dream I heard singing. Strangely beautiful and healing and directed at me. When I heard the singing, I felt dark leave me. I remember the words that sounded like an end to a song, "and never return." Now whats odds about this is I woke up feeling better than I have in a LONG time. Like everything was going to be ok like dark sickness had left me. But, if theres any truth to what I saw, heard, felt... Our lives as energy are more f'ed up than you can imagine. Anyway karma was brought up. Seemed fitting to mention this.

"To hear someone sing in your dream signifies emotional and spiritual fulfillment.

Your mood is changing for the positive as your outlook in life is looking up."
Hmmmm.... no and no. Huh.
 
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It seems that any books that are significant/important to people will be carefully preserved and copied - and translated.

Given that the Church has always treated the books of Scripture with care - and even ceremonial reverence, such as the use of incense, I think one can presume that the Bible has been preserved as much as is humanly possible.

Of course, there have been many individuals in history who have changed parts, or re-written large tracts, or even omitted whole books, to suit their own agendas. (eg. The Muslim's versions of the Old and New Testaments are as unrecognizable with the ancient copies of the scriptures, which predate Muhammad by centuries, as is the book of Mormon, or of Jehovas - also Luther and other protestants threw out whole books and passages that did not agree with their new ideology of what they wanted Christianity to be). Nevertheless, the ancient hand transcribed versions of the Scriptures found in geographically distant areas are all substantially identical both in their content and in the reverence with which they were kept.
 
It seems that any books that are significant/important to people will be carefully preserved and copied - and translated.

Given that the Church has always treated the books of Scripture with care - and even ceremonial reverence, such as the use of incense, I think one can presume that the Bible has been preserved as much as is humanly possible.

Of course, there have been many individuals in history who have changed parts, or re-written large tracts, or even omitted whole books, to suit their own agendas. (eg. The Muslim's versions of the Old and New Testaments are as unrecognizable with the ancient copies of the scriptures, which predate Muhammad by centuries, as is the book of Mormon, or of Jehovas - also Luther and other protestants threw out whole books and passages that did not agree with their new ideology of what they wanted Christianity to be). Nevertheless, the ancient hand transcribed versions of the Scriptures found in geographically distant areas are all substantially identical both in their content and in the reverence with which they were kept.

Don't forget King James...that guy raped the pages of the Bible.
 
I had a dream...oh wait. Strange dream where light and dark were struggling to gain hold. (Notice how I did not say fighting). Light was well being, health, freedom...all the good you can imagine. Dark all the bad. In this dream I heard singing. Strangely beautiful and healing and directed at me. When I heard the singing, I felt dark leave me. I remember the words that sounded like an end to a song, "and never return." Now whats odds about this is I woke up feeling better than I have in a LONG time. Like everything was going to be ok like dark sickness had left me. But, if theres any truth to what I saw, heard, felt... Our lives as energy are more f'ed up than you can imagine. Anyway karma was brought up. Seemed fitting to mention this.

"To hear someone sing in your dream signifies emotional and spiritual fulfillment.

Your mood is changing for the positive as your outlook in life is looking up."
Hmmmm.... no and no. Huh.

I had a dream right as my Father was dying...it was brief and it was the moment right before you wake as you are half way in half way out...but I was standing in a thick fog, looking into a brightly lit window...I was inside at the same time I was outside looking in, as was all my family including my Dad and others that somehow I knew in my dream (future relations?) as I looked in we were all talking and laughing about something...and I instantly understood that we were all dead (from this plane anyhow)...and I instantly understood as well that this life we are living now will be but the blink of an eye in the grand scheme....that we will look back and laugh at the worries we had here. It was very liberating.
 
Don't forget King James...that guy raped the pages of the Bible.

King Henry 8 commissioned that re-write after he was excommunicated for bigamy. He wanted to create his own Church based on Christianity, so he had to create his own version of the Scriptures. So it is not surprising that he 'raped' the Bible, as I suspect it was far from the first thing he had raped.





(I know that roman numerals are usually used after names, but I think Roman things don't exactly fit with King Henry 8).
 
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King Henry commissioned that re-write after he was excommunicated for bigamy. He wanted to create his own Church based on Christianity, so he had to create his own version of the Scriptures. So it is not surprising that he 'raped' the Bible, as I suspect it was far from the first thing he had raped.


King James gave the translators instructions intended to guarantee that the new version would conform to the ecclesiology and reflect the episcopal structure of the Church of England and its belief in an ordained clergy...which is fucking bullshit crowd control. The translation was done by 47 scholars, all of whom were members of the Church of England....and re-wrote it to the way THEY wanted it. In common with most other translations of the period, the New Testament was translated from Greek, the Old Testament was translated from Hebrew text, while the Apocrypha were translated from the Greek and Latin....then later tossed away. In the Book of Common Prayer (1662), the text of the Authorized Version replaced the text of the Great Bible – for Epistle and Gospel readings – and as such was authorized by Act of Parliament. By the first half of the 18th century, the Authorized Version was effectively unchallenged as the English translation used in Anglican and Protestant churches. Over the course of the 18th century, the Authorized Version supplanted the Latin Vulgate as the standard version of scripture for English speaking scholars.

Would be nice to have those original texts re-translated today by unbiased individuals.
 
King James gave the translators instructions intended to guarantee that the new version would conform to the ecclesiology and reflect the episcopal structure of the Church of England and its belief in an ordained clergy...which is fucking bullshit crowd control. The translation was done by 47 scholars, all of whom were members of the Church of England....and re-wrote it to the way THEY wanted it. In common with most other translations of the period, the New Testament was translated from Greek, the Old Testament was translated from Hebrew text, while the Apocrypha were translated from the Greek and Latin....then later tossed away. In the Book of Common Prayer (1662), the text of the Authorized Version replaced the text of the Great Bible – for Epistle and Gospel readings – and as such was authorized by Act of Parliament. By the first half of the 18th century, the Authorized Version was effectively unchallenged as the English translation used in Anglican and Protestant churches. Over the course of the 18th century, the Authorized Version supplanted the Latin Vulgate as the standard version of scripture for English speaking scholars.

Would be nice to have those original texts re-translated today by unbiased individuals.
Unbiased translation is a tough call. Lots of footnotes would probably help.

I think the RSV is such an attempt.
Also, an English translation was made by Catholics a little before the King James, from the Vulgate, called the Douay Rheims Bible.
 
King James really wasn't that involved in the translation of the King James version. He pretty much left the translators alone, except for insisting that they could not include any footnotes or commentaries to help the common man understand what the scripture meant or to support any particular doctrine.

There were many English translations already floating around at the time. King James was not even the first English monarch to create an authorized English version of the bible. Henry VIII commissioned the Great Bible in 1539, based on the Tyndale Bible. This was supplanted by the Bishops' Bible in 1568, which then underwent various revisions. The bishops bible was mostly based on the Vulgate rather than the original languages, and it was not very eloquent. The common man rejected it, preferring more eloquent translations like the very popular Geneva Bible. These all contained commentaries to help explain scripture, generally from very biased points of view. The Gevena bible itself was thoroughly Calvinist, which Anglican authorities hated. King James himself disliked the popular translations mostly because many of them thoroughly refuted of his beloved doctrine of the Divine Right of Kings. He did not want people reading bibles that contained arguments that republican or even anarchistic systems of government were more compatible with the will of God than was the monarchy. He did not want people to pay too much attention to the part of the bible where the prophet Samuel explains why the people or Israel are so wicked and foolish for wanting a king, or how God then agrees to let them have a king only in order to punish them.

King James would probably have preferred to have the KJV openly support the divine right of kings, but he was afraid that it would not catch on if its bias were so obvious. Instead he settled for trying to displace the translations that contained commentary he disliked. To do that, he had to make the authorized version seem unbiased.


The "translators" actually just copied other English versions (they were instructed to use the Bishops' Bible as a baseline, but ended up borrowing more text from the Geneva Bible) for the most part, only occasionally making changes based on comparisons with the original Greek. It is also worth noting that the original 1611 edition (which is not the same as the 19th century text most people call KJV) was intentionally filled with archaisms in order to make it sound more authoritative. Although the Gevena bible was 51 years older, it sounds significantly more modern. It continued to be preferred by the Puritans for quite some time, for its eloquence as well as its commentaries.



There are several modern translations that go back to the original texts. Most newer versions are not actually any better than the older ones though. Many (mostly those only slightly different from more established texts) are largely concerned with using more politically correct gender-inclusive language. Most newer translations prefer a more Dynamic Equivalence rather than Formal Equivalence, trying to get across what the translators believe is the basic idea rather than staying true to what was actually written. This may make it easier for those with less developed verbal skills to understand, but it also introduces some serious bias and eliminates nuance. Many passages can be understood in multiple complimentary ways, and may be reduced to the least significant sense when paraphrased.

I immediately loose a little respect for someone if I learn he prefers the New International Version, and a lot if he prefers the New Living Translation.

The English Standard Version (which could be considered a 21st century update of the RSV) is not as literal as I would like, but it is better than the KJV and also very easy to read. It may well be the best choice for the average person.

I personally prefer to use Young's Literal Translation as my English version. Its Formal Equivalence is just about as strict as possible between languages with such different grammar rules. It is based directly on the Textus Receptus and Majority Text, the Greek manuscripts used to proofread the KJV. It is the only English translation I know of that consistently translates words like Aion and so does not contain a bias in favor of the doctrine of Eternal Damnation. Unfortunately, it is not very eloquent. Much of this is unavoidable in any literal translation, but it also contains some archaisms to make it sound more like the familiar KJV.

(I typically like to read my Vulgate before consulting an English translation. Latin and Greek are similar enough that this can reveal things which are less clear in English. The Vulgate is not perfect, but it tends to be very literal and it was first translated at a time when both languages were still in common usage. Sometimes I'll check the original Greek, but my vocabulary is not broad enough to do that without a dictionary. I don't know Hebrew grammar well enough to gain much from reading the old testament in the original language even with a dictionary.)
 
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