Changes to the Bible

Flavus Aquila said:
It seems that any books that are significant/important to people will be carefully preserved and copied - and translated.

Given that the Church has always treated the books of Scripture with care - and even ceremonial reverence, such as the use of incense, I think one can presume that the Bible has been preserved as much as is humanly possible.

Of course, there have been many individuals in history who have changed parts, or re-written large tracts, or even omitted whole books, to suit their own agendas. (eg. The Muslim's versions of the Old and New Testaments are as unrecognizable with the ancient copies of the scriptures, which predate Muhammad by centuries, as is the book of Mormon, or of Jehovas - also Luther and other protestants threw out whole books and passages that did not agree with their new ideology of what they wanted Christianity to be). Nevertheless, the ancient hand transcribed versions of the Scriptures found in geographically distant areas are all substantially identical both in their content and in the reverence with which they were kept.
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Right. You mean the same church that kept the masses ignorant of how to read and write. The same church that have spun off multiple denominations of faith apparently unable to settle on which version is best. That church?
 
Skarekrow said:
I had a dream right as my Father was dying...it was brief and it was the moment right before you wake as you are half way in half way out...but I was standing in a thick fog, looking into a brightly lit window...I was inside at the same time I was outside looking in, as was all my family including my Dad and others that somehow I knew in my dream (future relations?) as I looked in we were all talking and laughing about something...and I instantly understood that we were all dead (from this plane anyhow)...and I instantly understood as well that this life we are living now will be but the blink of an eye in the grand scheme....that we will look back and laugh at the worries we had here. It was very liberating.
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Not to derail your dream, but these people you saw that are already dead, what did they look like? How did you recognize them? Did they have arms, legs feet? Things you really dont need any more when free of this reality?
 
The church didn't really keep the masses ignorant of how to read and write. Sure, they could have tried a bit harder to encourage literacy, but it was kept down mostly by economic factors. Books took a long time to write by hand, and getting enough vellum on which to write a full bible could require the slaughter of hundreds of sheep. Not many people could afford books.
 
Eventhorizon said:
Not to derail your dream, but these people you saw that are already dead, what did they look like? How did you recognize them? Did they have arms, legs feet? Things you really dont need any more when free of this reality?
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How do you now you don't need those things when not in this reality?
 
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Eventhorizon said:
Not to derail your dream, but these people you saw that are already dead, what did they look like? How did you recognize them? Did they have arms, legs feet? Things you really dont need any more when free of this reality?
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Seriously man, why must every single thing be picked apart? That cannot be a satisfying way of looking at anything positive...to dissect it into nothing.
Just saying. Sometimes things are just as they should be.
 
this is only temporary said:
Only history, and what I've learned about the development of literacy and written languages. Apparently most people thousands of years ago actually couldn't read at all, so things had to be told to them orally, but you can look that up quite easily if you like. Other than that it is pure speculation.
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If you are going to provide proof by saying ambiguous things like "history" and "look it up yourself" then this isn't the thread for you.
 
The epic of gilgamesh was a big influence on the bible

One version of the bible stories involves aliens, one involves jesus not dying on the cross and various other interesting stories

Goliath in that version is a nephilim alien hybrid

I'll go into some more detail but its late here and i have to hit the hay
 
Eventhorizon said:
Right. You mean the same church that kept the masses ignorant of how to read and write. The same church that have spun off multiple denominations of faith apparently unable to settle on which version is best. That church?
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Your post proves that literacy is no safeguard against ignorance and bigotry.

Literacy has always been limited by the cost, or rarity of materials. If you think that people were being kept illiterate deliberately before the invention of the printing press and the greater availability of paper before the printing press, I challenge you to do something to improve literacy, without using modern convenience.

Ie. I challenge you to personally harvest and manually pulp sufficient wood to make enough paper for 30 grammar books, and about 10 times as much for students' writting paper. Then you have to manually transcribe 30 copies of an good grammar book. Finally, you have to assemble a classroom in an illiterate area and teach the locals to read and write.
 
Skarekrow said:
Seriously man, why must every single thing be picked apart? That cannot be a satisfying way of looking at anything positive...to dissect it into nothing.
Just saying. Sometimes things are just as they should be.
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Its part of what I do. Sorry.
 
Flavus Aquila said:
Your post proves that literacy is no safeguard against ignorance and bigotry.

Literacy has always been limited by the cost, or rarity of materials. If you think that people were being kept illiterate deliberately before the invention of the printing press and the greater availability of paper before the printing press, I challenge you to do something to improve literacy, without using modern convenience.

Ie. I challenge you to personally harvest and manually pulp sufficient wood to make enough paper for 30 grammar books, and about 10 times as much for students' writting paper. Then you have to manually transcribe 30 copies of an good grammar book. Finally, you have to assemble a classroom in an illiterate area and teach the locals to read and write.
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Or it proves that people prefer illusion over other options.
 
Ah religion and politics. No better way to make friends.
 
Eventhorizon said:
Or it proves that people prefer illusion over other options.
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One last comment before bed!

You are right about the church...they have been suppressing the common man and woman

The church has always supported the landed aristocracy; this involves maintaining an inequality in society. one of the best ways to keep inequality is in limiting the education of the masses

In the UK our new archbishop of canterbury is an ex oil businessman! He is well connected in the world of oil and banking and the church is heavily linked to those things

That's not to say that everyone within the church is like that and in fact one vicar has recently attacked Archbishop Welby over his opposition to gay marriage. Also some catholic priests went against the policy of the vatican to support the landed aristocracy in south america and even went as far as to take up arms and to fight the fascists but many were killed by CIA trained assassins and CIA trained terrorists also raped nuns to spread fear.

The CIA and the vatican are intimately linked as are organised crime and banking such as the banco ambrosiano
 
muir said:
One last comment before bed!

You are right about the church...they have been suppressing the common man and woman

The church has always supported the landed aristocracy; this involves maintaining an inequality in society. one of the best ways to keep inequality is in limiting the education of the masses

In the UK our new archbishop of canterbury is an ex oil businessman! He is well connected in the world of oil and banking and the church is heavily linked to those things

That's not to say that everyone within the church is like that and in fact one vicar has recently attacked Archbishop Welby over his opposition to gay marriage. Also some catholic priests went against the policy of the vatican to support the landed aristocracy in south america and even went as far as to take up arms and to fight the fascists but many were killed by CIA trained assassins and CIA trained terrorists also raped nuns to spread fear.

The CIA and the vatican are intimately linked as are organised crime and banking such as the banco ambrosiano
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First off I like your signature. What a great program and a just a great quote. To think stories like this are housed in a single mind. Second, I have often wondered what my problem is. Its like I grew up believing in good would always win, how could it not? Only to realize later corruption rules the world. The CIA, church etc... I see so much potential in humanity only to be reminded on a daily basis its only potential, not reality.
 
Eventhorizon said:
Hmmm... I am disgusting and I dont believe. However I dont believe I am disgusting for the fact I dont believe.
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Thought you were a non-believer? :decision:
 
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I cannot help but wonder, just a moment, where the early written documents are that clarify what you are insinuating in the original post. Did they keep written records? Notes? Documents? Is it written somewhere that "we shall do all we can to keep people from the truth"?? May I quote an answer sent to a man trying to test about five or six Christians with his "so many versions" attitude? Your thread.
 
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the said:
If you are going to provide proof by saying ambiguous things like "history" and "look it up yourself" then this isn't the thread for you.
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If you really wanted proof, you'd learn ancient Greek and Latin, or Aramaic, and maybe do some actual work yourself, or perhaps contact someone who is an expert in theology or languages or human history, or the Bible, or evolution, and ask them. You'd listen to them, too.

What I said was speculation, not proof, based simply on things I've read, which is what all of us have to rely on, unless someone here was actually on the spot 3,000 years ago, when the various bible stories were first written down. About 95% of the people here that you're asking for "proof" haven't the faintest idea what they're talking about, as I'm sure you know, so I'm guessing what you really want is a "debate" split purely along party lines (i.e. an argument), not proof, since I'm also sure you know proof is not going to be easy to find, even for the experts, who probably don't hang out on these forums.

P.S. Also, put downs and name calling and telling people to leave your thread are all signs of someone looking to pick a fight, not someone interested in learning things or finding proof of anything.
 
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this is only temporary said:
If you really wanted proof, you'd learn ancient Greek and Latin, or Aramaic, and maybe do some actual work yourself, or perhaps contact someone who is an expert in theology or languages or human history, or the Bible, or evolution, and ask them. You'd listen to them, too.

What I said was speculation, not proof, based simply on things I've read, which is what all of us have to rely on, unless someone here was actually on the spot 3,000 years ago, when the various bible stories were first written down. About 95% of the people here that you're asking for "proof" haven't the faintest idea what they're talking about, as I'm sure you know, so I'm guessing what you really want is a "debate" split purely along party lines (i.e. an argument), not proof, since I'm also sure you know proof is not going to be easy to find, even for the experts, who probably don't hang out on these forums.

P.S. Also, put downs and name calling and telling people to leave your thread are all signs of someone looking to pick a fight, not someone interested in learning things or finding proof of anything.
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Well looks like you dont have a clue. Pretty typical.
 
just me said:
I cannot help but wonder, just a moment, where the early written documents are that clarify what you are insinuating in the original post. Did they keep written records? Notes? Documents? Is it written somewhere that "we shall do all we can to keep people from the truth"?? May I quote an answer sent to a man trying to test about five or six Christians with his "so many versions" attitude? Your thread.
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Most likely locked away in the deepest vault of the Vatican, so they cannot be "re-discovered" and re-translated...I'm sure it would be devastating for them.
 
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